HFR

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
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west Texas
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Display name:
Dave Taylor
You are at a nt field and receive your clearance thusly:

"blahblah.......Hold for release." You readback and are sent back to advisory. No release time is given. Its good vmc.

Time ticks away, release never comes. Can't raise the agency providing clearance or anyone else (but your radio is fine). What do you do?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
You are at a nt field and receive your clearance thusly:

"blahblah.......Hold for release." You readback and are sent back to advisory. No release time is given. Its good vmc.

Time ticks away, release never comes. Can't raise the agency providing clearance or anyone else (but your radio is fine). What do you do?
Click to expand...

1) cellphone. I maintain one with analog rollover for just this circumstance.

2) On readback, request VFR departure or release time.

3) Depart VFR and advise agency in the air (or cancel IFR w/them).

4) shut down, go to phone, call.
 
Call 'em back, tell 'em you're departing VFR, pick up in air.

If they don't answer, cannot be raised, depart VFR, pick-up in the air.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
You are at a nt field and receive your clearance thusly:

"blahblah.......Hold for release." You readback and are sent back to advisory. No release time is given. Its good vmc.

Time ticks away, release never comes. Can't raise the agency providing clearance or anyone else (but your radio is fine). What do you do?
Click to expand...
When you get your clearance and they say "hold for release" that means that you are supposed to call them back when you are ready to go, like at the end of the runway with your runup complete. I guess if you never call them back they will can your flight plan after some amount of time just like at a towered airport.

Or were you ready to begin with and waiting for them?
 
Here, read this. Agree with them or are they messed up?

"Did you know that if you receive a “hold for release” IFR clearance at an uncontrolled airfield then decide to depart VFR to pick up your clearance in the air it is a violation"
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Here, read this. Agree with them or are they messed up?

"Did you know that if you receive a “hold for release” IFR clearance at an uncontrolled airfield then decide to depart VFR to pick up your clearance in the air it is a violation"
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I believe their analysis is wrong. Quoting from the portion of the AIM they referenced (5-2-6(a)(2)):

2. Hold for Release. ATC may issue "hold for release" instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, "hold for release," the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. In addition, ATC will include departure delay information in conjunction with "hold for release" instructions. The ATC instruction, "hold for release," applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR. However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code. An IFR clearance may not be available after departure.
Click to expand...

Emphasis added.
 
My question: If it's good VMC, why didn't you depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air in the first place, unless your op specs say you must always pick up clearance on the ground.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Here, read this. Agree with them or are they messed up?

"Did you know that if you receive a “hold for release” IFR clearance at an uncontrolled airfield then decide to depart VFR to pick up your clearance in the air it is a violation"
Click to expand...
They are messed up. They even reference AIM 5-2-6 which says, "The ATC instruction, "hold for release," applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR." But it's nice to let them know that's what you're doing if you can ("However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code."). In addition, if you do depart VFR, you'd better beware that "An IFR clearance may not be available after departure."
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My question: If it's good VMC, why didn't you depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air in the first place, unless your op specs say you must always pick up clearance on the ground.
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Because there's no guarantee you'll get that clearance once airborne. Even if weather isn't a factor, if there's other IFR traffic already in the area, they can't issue you a clearance until they've got both of you separated either procedurally or by radar, and sometimes that's not easy. It's just that sort of problem which led to nine deaths in this accident.
 
Everskyward said:
But Ted's question stated "in good VMC" which it definitely wasn't in that situation.
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Agreed, but that has nothing to do with why ATC couldn't issue them a clearance immediately after departure. It could have been clear and a million, and they still would not have received their clearance until clear of all other IFR traffic.
 
Ron Levy said:
It could have been clear and a million, and they still would not have received their clearance until clear of all other IFR traffic.
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True, but it would have been doubtful that they would have hit a mountain...
 
It makes no sense that ATC would tell a pilot to hold for release and then send him "back to advisory".
 
Ron, that makes about as much sense as saying you should fly IFR at all times regardless of situation. Good VFR means, at least to me, that you can take off and climb out to a reasonable altitude (where you don't have to worry about obstructions) while you're waiting for your clearance. If you have to stay at 1300' to maintain VFR and are worried about flight into terrain or other obstacles, that is not good VFR. Dave stipulated "good VFR." In good VFR conditions, even if you have to stay at a lower altitude to remain below clouds, if you're not worried about hitting something then you'll still probably get your clearance sooner than you would if on the ground, and at least you're spending the time getting somewhere.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My question: If it's good VMC, why didn't you depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air in the first place, unless your op specs say you must always pick up clearance on the ground.
Click to expand...
Less heads-down time programming the clearance while flying in potentially congested airspace?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Less heads-down time programming the clearance while flying in potentially congested airspace?
Click to expand...

You shouldn't have any issues getting the first fix or two programmed in and can wait on the rest until a more opportune time. I've done that enough times.

Or, if using VORs, you could (gasp) fly the needles instead of the GPS.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Ron, that makes about as much sense as saying you should fly IFR at all times regardless of situation. Good VFR means, at least to me, that you can take off and climb out to a reasonable altitude (where you don't have to worry about obstructions) while you're waiting for your clearance. If you have to stay at 1300' to maintain VFR and are worried about flight into terrain or other obstacles, that is not good VFR. Dave stipulated "good VFR." In good VFR conditions, even if you have to stay at a lower altitude to remain below clouds, if you're not worried about hitting something then you'll still probably get your clearance sooner than you would if on the ground, and at least you're spending the time getting somewhere.
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I don't care how good the weather is -- if you depart VFR after being told to hold for release, you may not get an IFR clearance once airborne no matter how good the weather is, and may have to go all the way to your destination VFR. Choose wisely.
 
Leaving from my home base, KUZA, I expect the clearance to include a hold for release at the end. They ask me to contact them when I am number one and then they arrange the release, usually within a minute or so and with a void time 5 minutes hence. In a very few cases there is inbound IFR traffic and they usually inform me of the reason for the delay of the release. In some cases, usually when it is severe blue overcast, I have cancelled and departed VFR. When I am in a hurry, and the conditions are VFR, I will depart and pickup my clearance in route. When I call approach control, most of the time they give me my clearance before I request it.

I can recall one case where I did not accept the clearance because of its unnecessary complexity and told clearance that I was going VFR. Once I was airborne, and proceeding direct to my destination, I contacted approach control for traffic advisories. The controller wanted to give me an IFR clearance and I declined, said the routing was too far out of the way and it was a beautiful VFR day and I was proceeding direct,
 
Good VMC, and I'm not overflying Canada, or penetrating the SFRA?

I make a phone call asking for notams and tfrs along my route. Then I go fly. I don't understand the propensity to file when it's severe clear.
 
EdFred said:
Good VMC, and I'm not overflying Canada, or penetrating the SFRA?

I make a phone call asking for notams and tfrs along my route. Then I go fly. I don't understand the propensity to file when it's severe clear.
Click to expand...


You don't live near DC....
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
You are at a nt field and receive your clearance thusly:

"blahblah.......Hold for release." You readback and are sent back to advisory. No release time is given. Its good vmc.

Time ticks away, release never comes. Can't raise the agency providing clearance or anyone else (but your radio is fine). What do you do?
Click to expand...

Is this a hypothetical or did this happen to you? Doesn't make a lot of sense to issue a HFR and then have the pilot switch to CTAF.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Here, read this. Agree with them or are they messed up?

"Did you know that if you receive a “hold for release” IFR clearance at an uncontrolled airfield then decide to depart VFR to pick up your clearance in the air it is a violation"
Click to expand...

They messed up, which is clearly indicated in the AIM reference they thoughtfully provided.

"ATC may issue 'hold for release' instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, 'hold for release,' the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. In addition, ATC will include departure delay information in conjunction with 'hold for release' instructions. The ATC instruction, 'hold for release,' applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR. However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code. An IFR clearance may not be available after departure."
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed, but that has nothing to do with why ATC couldn't issue them a clearance immediately after departure. It could have been clear and a million, and they still would not have received their clearance until clear of all other IFR traffic.
Click to expand...

It may have something to do with why they collided with the top of Mt Lavendar.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't care how good the weather is -- if you depart VFR after being told to hold for release, you may not get an IFR clearance once airborne no matter how good the weather is, and may have to go all the way to your destination VFR.
Click to expand...

Horrors!! Going all the way to your destination under VFR in good VMC!! Oh the humanity!!
 
roncachamp said:
It does not appear that accident occurred in good VMC.
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Not my definition of "good VMC," but it was VMC. However, the important point relative to this discussion is that just because you can get airborne VFR, you can't be sure you'll get your IFR clearance once you get up there, so you must be prepared to complete the flight under VFR. That could be a problem in some situations.
 
roncachamp said:
Horrors!! Going all the way to your destination under VFR in good VMC!! Oh the humanity!!
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So, the presence of "good VMC" where you depart is a guarantee that you can complete the flight "under VFR in good VMC" all the way to your destination? I think not, and that's my point. Any number of factors from weather to airspace to flight restrictions could prevent that. So, my point is that unless you're sure that will work, departing VFR could make it impossible to complete the flight to the planned destination, and you'd best have a viable Plan B in case you can't get your IFR clearance after taking off.
 
Ron Levy said:
So, the presence of "good VMC" where you depart is a guarantee that you can complete the flight "under VFR in good VMC" all the way to your destination?
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No, the presence of "good VMC" where you depart is a guarantee that you can avoid running into a nearby mountain.
 
roncachamp said:
No, the presence of "good VMC" where you depart is a guarantee that you can avoid running into a nearby mountain.
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Generally, yes, but not guaranteed -- folks still run into mountains in good VMC.;) In any event, I thought the issue was getting your IFR clearance (which is definitely not guaranteed), not avoiding mountains (which is up to the pilot alone when VFR).
 
Ron Levy said:
So, the presence of "good VMC" where you depart is a guarantee that you can complete the flight "under VFR in good VMC" all the way to your destination? I think not, and that's my point. Any number of factors from weather to airspace to flight restrictions could prevent that. So, my point is that unless you're sure that will work, departing VFR could make it impossible to complete the flight to the planned destination, and you'd best have a viable Plan B in case you can't get your IFR clearance after taking off.
Click to expand...

I don't think I'd worry too much about completing the trip under VFR but I would want one or more "Plan B"s, one of which would be landing where I just departed or at another airport along the route. I've made an airborne IFR pickup when leaving southern Florida many times but on most if not all of those occasions I didn't even consider the possibility of completing the trip to Minnesota without getting an IFR clearance sometime soon after taking off. But if the local Wx isn't sufficient to easily remain in VMC while avoiding the terrain and obstacles I'll wait until I get a clearance before rolling.
 
roncachamp said:
No, the presence of "good VMC" where you depart is a guarantee that you can avoid running into a nearby mountain.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and for that purpose, "good VMC" probably means something quite a bit more "VMC like" for a Jet than a Cessna 182.
 
Ron Levy said:
Generally, yes, but not guaranteed -- folks still run into mountains in good VMC.
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Actually, the presence of "good VMC" where you depart is a guarantee that you can avoid running into a nearby mountain. Nothing guarantees that you won't run into it, including obtaining an IFR clearance before departing.
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, the presence of "good VMC" where you depart is a guarantee that you can avoid running into a nearby mountain. Nothing guarantees that you won't run into it, including obtaining an IFR clearance before departing.
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I'll buy that.
 
gismo said:
Agreed, and for that purpose, "good VMC" probably means something quite a bit more "VMC like" for a Jet than a Cessna 182.
Click to expand...

A bit more, but certainly not a lot more. It's only about an 85 mile trip.
 
If you still have an active IFR flight plan, but a “hold for release” has not been issued, then you can still depart VFR and pick up an IFR flight plan in the air. I don’t think that the AIM has been contradicted by the post. The statement was “depart without first canceling either your IFR flight plan or clearance”. I think you are being held up by the canceling the clearance part. You still have an IFR flight plan, but the clearance to hold airspace has been rescinded. Departing VFR is still allowed
 
Av8rr said:
If you still have an active IFR flight plan, but a “hold for release” has not been issued, then you can still depart VFR and pick up an IFR flight plan in the air. I don’t think that the AIM has been contradicted by the post. The statement was “depart without first canceling either your IFR flight plan or clearance”. I think you are being held up by the canceling the clearance part. You still have an IFR flight plan, but the clearance to hold airspace has been rescinded. Departing VFR is still allowed
Click to expand...
The AIM section quoted above clearly says that even if you've been told "hold for release," if the weather is VMC, you can legally launch VFR without further discussion with ATC. Thus, it doesn't matter what ATC says -- if you're at a nontowered airport and the weather is VMC, you can launch VFR at any time regardless of what ATC tells you about your IFR clearance.
 
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