James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
Sure. These two are well bigger than the guys being considered. One was a d-lineman and the other a tight end. There would be a wiggle to get in back, but it's doable. The dude on the left is 6'6".
Here's the mission, what's the plane?
- Thread starter labbadabba
- Start date
LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
Jeez, we used to use a 240 lb estimate for a fully equipped combat soldier. Empty the golf balls out of your pockets!
I agree with the 310. Probably the cheapest way to meet your payload requirement. Just took a 500 NM trip with 3 full sized adults last week in one. I remember Doc Bruce saying his Seneca II can pack a load as well. Might be an option.
Two trips?
Also, they can keep the golf balls if they can all learn to juggle so that only one set is "weighing" down the plane at any given time. All the balls but one in the air!!
Seriously though...two trips, or else send the golf clubs ahead via UPS/USPS/fed EX??
Easy: Twin Bonanza. Mine has an 1100 pound payload with full fuel (134 gallons, or roughly 4 hours with a 1hr reserve). Leave a little fuel behind and you can carry your load. The 90 or so gallons you can carry with the load you suggest will take you 2.5 hours at ~160KTAS with a 1hr reserve. Mine has 3x3 seating, so the guys in the back might be a bit snug. If you can find one with a couch and captains chair in the back it would be more comfortable with 5 guys. Baggage space isn't even remotely an issue, as the rear baggage area is cavernous and you have a good size nose baggage area.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
Yep, I had the same thought. Not only the extra insurance and inspections but also the extra pilot if you're not flying VFR.
So with that, the best options would be:
Cessna 4XX
Twin Commander maybe?
A light turboprop (Piper M500/600, Epic, TBM, etc.)
Navajo
None of those obviously would be terribly economical. I figure $500-700 per hour not including acquisition costs.
So with that in mind, figure you have a championship golf course in Dallas or Chicago, you can get there in 90 mins in a TBM. So at $650 per hour, that's $1,950 for the flight, figure another $400 for greens fees (I'm counting on the club pro to broker a deal there...), pilot gets $.25 and a voucher for a free soda.
Think a foursome would pay $3,000 - $3,500 for a day trip to golf at a championship course they otherwise wouldn't be able to do in a day?
paflyer
Final Approach
Is this a commercial endeavor?
N747JB
Final Approach
You ain't getting 5 240 lb guys in a Baron!
N747JB
Final Approach
A 421 would do it, except the hourly part and be comfortable for the passengers, just double the hourly and you've got a solution!! Count on 60 gallons the first hour and 42 or so after that. So, $250-300 hour for fuel alone, throw in a little maintenance and insurance and you end up between $5-600 per hour.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
Well, that's a grey area. But if I were thinking with my Fed's cap on, I'd say yes. It would have to be a Part 135 op. Basically it's a golf charter.
That said, if someone wanted to get cute.... If the plane was owned by the golf club and offered as a free service to its members to golf at other clubs in the region it might fly under Part 91. The pilot could collect half the operating expense of the aircraft and the club could write off the rest.
But, like I said, if I were honestly evaluating it from the FARs I'd say it's pretty firmly in Part 135 territory.
paflyer
Final Approach
That was my thought as well.A 421 would do it, except the hourly part and be comfortable for the passengers, just double the hourly and you've got a solution!! Count on 60 gallons the first hour and 42 or so after that. So, $250-300 hour for fuel alone, throw in a little maintenance and insurance and you end up between $5-600 per hour.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
What about a Cessna 340?
Figure useful load of 2069
Four hours of gas - 864lbs (36gal per hour)
Bags - 140
Pilot/copilot - 410
Pax - 655lbs
Now that means that the pax would need to either average 165lbs or we shave off an hour of fuel and limit the missions to anywhere we can fly in 2 hours with 1 hour reserve.
Three hours of gas - 648lbs (36gal per hour)
Bags - 140
Pilot/copilot - 410
Pax - 871lbs - avg. 218lbs
If you can fly it single pilot VFR then you can remove the copilot as well. Lots of nice C340s out there in the mid-250s...
edit: a C335 might be good too. Same airframe, just no pressurization. If most of these flights are short (2 hours max) is pressurization really a need. It would free up an extra 300lbs of useful load which provides plenty of fuel and performance margin. Plus cheaper MX. Hmm.
It's not my money but this might be the best option from what I can see. Thoughts?
Figure useful load of 2069
Four hours of gas - 864lbs (36gal per hour)
Bags - 140
Pilot/copilot - 410
Pax - 655lbs
Now that means that the pax would need to either average 165lbs or we shave off an hour of fuel and limit the missions to anywhere we can fly in 2 hours with 1 hour reserve.
Three hours of gas - 648lbs (36gal per hour)
Bags - 140
Pilot/copilot - 410
Pax - 871lbs - avg. 218lbs
If you can fly it single pilot VFR then you can remove the copilot as well. Lots of nice C340s out there in the mid-250s...
edit: a C335 might be good too. Same airframe, just no pressurization. If most of these flights are short (2 hours max) is pressurization really a need. It would free up an extra 300lbs of useful load which provides plenty of fuel and performance margin. Plus cheaper MX. Hmm.
It's not my money but this might be the best option from what I can see. Thoughts?
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Cessna Caravan and someone else' credit card.
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
AN-2 !!!
Not only could you take off from the golf course you could land at your destination course as well !
From Wikipedia:
A note from the pilot's handbook reads: "If the engine quits in instrument conditions or at night, the pilot should pull the control column full aft and keep the wings level. The leading-edge slats will snap out at about 64 km/h (40 mph) and when the airplane slows to a forward speed of about 40 km/h (25 mph), the airplane will sink at about a parachute descent rate until the aircraft hits the ground." [4]
SWEET !
Not only could you take off from the golf course you could land at your destination course as well !
From Wikipedia:
A note from the pilot's handbook reads: "If the engine quits in instrument conditions or at night, the pilot should pull the control column full aft and keep the wings level. The leading-edge slats will snap out at about 64 km/h (40 mph) and when the airplane slows to a forward speed of about 40 km/h (25 mph), the airplane will sink at about a parachute descent rate until the aircraft hits the ground." [4]
SWEET !
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N747JB
Final Approach
I think a 340 would be too small for 5 guys in the 240-250 lb range, plus golf clubs, no room in the nose baggage for clubs IIRC. A 414A uses the same engines, a little slower, but a MUCH bigger cabin.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
I think load-wise we may be able to do in in the C335 but you raise a good point about storage. Reading up on the plane, it tends to sit a little aft in its CG and if the nose baggage locker isn't big enough to accommodate golf clubs, that could be a problem.
arkvet
Line Up and Wait
If you have the luxury of having an extra pilot I would have to wonder if having two planes would be a better solution? Maybe an Aztec + PA28 variety? If the mission allowed for the one primary plane then great. If W/B didn't allow then have the 2nd pilot ferry the golf bags / etc. The PA28 variety could also be a rental (this is a commercial venture anyway, right?) on the side.
I just wonder if going that route might be considerably more economical in the long run, especially considering the majority of the flights would not exceed the limits of the Aztec. Could always have an extra fee to cover the cost of the ferry PA28 if it had to be "mobilized".
I just wonder if going that route might be considerably more economical in the long run, especially considering the majority of the flights would not exceed the limits of the Aztec. Could always have an extra fee to cover the cost of the ferry PA28 if it had to be "mobilized".
Not to mention that I thought the typical useful load on a 340 is in the 1200lb range?
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
Full fuel payload would be around 1,000lbs
According to AOPA:
1977 Cessna 340A
Takeoff/Landing Weight Normal Category 5,990 lbs.
Standard Empty Weight 3,878 lbs.
Max. Useful Load Normal Category 2,112 lbs.
Cessna 355 is another 300lbs more useful due to the lack of pressurization. Of course, these are internet numbers and not RW numbers...
paflyer
Final Approach
You need a 414/421 for pressurized, or a Navajo. Maybe a Queen Air, of you can find one with seats in it.
My recollection might have been a bit off, but that useful number seems high on that claim. What I know is when I looked at a 340 for my personal trips with four adults, I was no better off in a 340 than I was in a Baron (except for pressurization and deice). The typical load I carry would not fit, or just barely fit, and I'm not hauling around golf clubs nor 250lb people.
Agreed. The only problem I see with a Queen Air is parts availability/support these days. Otherwise, I'd like to have one if I were shopping in that market.
paflyer
Final Approach
Once in a while a peach hits the market.
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
You could get really nice AN-2 for about 80k.
FormerHangie
En-Route
I think the point of flying is to get there faster than you can driving. Point to point in Kansas, does an AN-2 have anything over a Chevy Suburban?
With a normal category airworthiness certificate ?
I believe full fuel gives you almost 5hrs range. The proposed operation requires a much shorter range. To transport third parties over a short distance a 414 with the large cabin may be a better option.
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Not necessariy for what he wants to do.
So you think an experimental exhibition AW certificate is a-ok ?
Art VanDelay
Pattern Altitude
Guys in Alaska hauling clients to their lodges in them as we speak. Just a courtesy ride for clients.
Iceman21
Pre-Flight
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Iceman21
What airplane is that? 6'6" in the back? I'm impressed, and I'm 6'5". I can't tell you the last time I was in the back of a GA airplane.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
Cessna 310
It's a whole lot cooler and a whole lot louder; doesn't that count for anything?
FormerHangie
En-Route
$200 an hour around here gets you a reasonably late model 172SP with a G1000, no pilot. $300 per hour gets you a Seminole or Twin Comanche, also without a pilot. An appropriate airplane such as a 414 charters for $600 - $800 per hour.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
$200 for a 172??
That's gotta be the rental price and not the operating cost, no?
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
Liking the Navajo options. Carries more weight than a C414 and is almost as fast as a C421. Generally less expensive than the Cessna twins as well even the pressurized PA-31P & Mojave are at less of a premium.
Read that VMC is actually lower than the stall speed, that is very comforting and a huge safety factor I would think. Useful load is usually around 2,500lbs, cruise in the teens at 200kts and about 36gph. Even better is the TIO-540 Lycs which seem to be more reliable powerplants (judging by the ADs) than the TCMs that are on the Cessnas.
Any PIREPS on the PA-31s, do we like them? : )
Read that VMC is actually lower than the stall speed, that is very comforting and a huge safety factor I would think. Useful load is usually around 2,500lbs, cruise in the teens at 200kts and about 36gph. Even better is the TIO-540 Lycs which seem to be more reliable powerplants (judging by the ADs) than the TCMs that are on the Cessnas.
Any PIREPS on the PA-31s, do we like them? : )
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scorpio
Pre-Flight
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scorpio
Can the pro send out a survey with the membership newsletter? He could say they're considering trying to put together packages and inquire as to what courses would be desirable and at what cost. The access to other courses may be a bigger incentive than the time saved flying.
If it's a high end club I'd think the players would expect a pretty comfortable flying experience.
If it's a high end club I'd think the players would expect a pretty comfortable flying experience.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
Yeah, I've been thinking about that while looking at light-twins, cabin-class twins, and turboprops. I'll need to sit down with him and describe what it would be like from a customer perspective the difference between flying in a C310, a pressurized cabin-class twin, or a TBM.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
So the $200-$300 is no longer a consideration?
FormerHangie
En-Route
Louder, for sure, cooler, pounding across Kansas in the summer, not so much.
That is the rental rate. How much of that is profit? i don't know, but it's considerably less that what it would cost for a pilot.
You're arranging a golf junket for some well off and somewhat portly gentlemen. You're going to have to provide a service that meets the standards of the rest of their lives. How many of these flights per year would you be doing per year? I'm guessing not nearly enough to justify buying an airplane,and that means contracting with a charter operator, and an appropriate airplane for this mission is in the $600 - $1000 per hour (or more) range.
For some idea, look here: http://www.charterhub.com
Also, are you sure you want to subject your golfers to an unpressurized aircraft?