Here's the mission, what's the plane?

[labbadabba]

So the $200-$300 is no longer a consideration?

Realistically, I don't think it can be. But negotiating 101, start with an unreasonable expectation and walk it back from there... Now the question is, if we're going with a larger aircraft, are we better off with a large cabin class twin piston or a single turboprop? Hourly operating costs are roughly the same for longer flights, shorter flights favor the pistons by some margin. Acquisition costs (again, other people's money) are significantly higher with a turboprop but so is the wow factor for the customer. How much is that worth? There are pressurized Navajos and Mojaves out there in the mid-200s with low time engines. Put in $15k worth of interior upgrades and it'll be as nice as any TBM or PC12.

Also, are you sure you want to subject your golfers to an unpressurized aircraft?

That's also a thought. I don't think short haul flights wouldn't be too much of an issue. For instance Prairie Dunes in Hutchinson KS, incredible course but it's in BFE, same with Dakota Dunes north of Sioux City. An unpressurized piston at 8k would be comfortable if a little bumpy in the afternoon. But a flight to Chicago or Dallas would be much more comfortable in the mid-teens and I wouldn't think dudes paying a premium for a golf junket would want to shove a cannula up their noses. But as I mentioned, there are some reasonably priced pressurized pistons on the market.

Now, I say this all with the massive caveat of not ever having purchased an aircraft and not having dealt with the management that goes into a Part 135 op. I am friends with a guy who runs a 135 operation out of KMKC, I could pick his brain I suppose... This is all an ambitious brainstorm from my buddy, I told him I'd look into what it would take. So far, a lot. lol...

 

[scorpio]

Seems like you could maybe broker a deal with the club and a Part 135 operation. Line up transportation on both ends. Arranging access to private clubs may be the hard part.

 

[labbadabba]

Seems like you could maybe broker a deal with the club and a Part 135 operation. Line up transportation on both ends. Arranging access to private clubs may be the hard part.

It's not terribly unusual for private clubs to have a member share program, but those arrangements are within the same city. My buddy has been in the business for a long time, we'll see how good his connections and how deep his pockets are...

 

[FormerHangie]

Realistically, I don't think it can be. But negotiating 101, start with an unreasonable expectation and walk it back from there... Now the question is, if we're going with a larger aircraft, are we better off with a large cabin class twin piston or a single turboprop? Hourly operating costs are roughly the same for longer flights, shorter flights favor the pistons by some margin. Acquisition costs (again, other people's money) are significantly higher with a turboprop but so is the wow factor for the customer. How much is that worth? There are pressurized Navajos and Mojaves out there in the mid-200s with low time engines. Put in $15k worth of interior upgrades and it'll be as nice as any TBM or PC12.



That's also a thought. I don't think short haul flights wouldn't be too much of an issue. For instance Prairie Dunes in Hutchinson KS, incredible course but it's in BFE, same with Dakota Dunes north of Sioux City. An unpressurized piston at 8k would be comfortable if a little bumpy in the afternoon. But a flight to Chicago or Dallas would be much more comfortable in the mid-teens and I wouldn't think dudes paying a premium for a golf junket would want to shove a cannula up their noses. But as I mentioned, there are some reasonably priced pressurized pistons on the market.

Now, I say this all with the massive caveat of not ever having purchased an aircraft and not having dealt with the management that goes into a Part 135 op. I am friends with a guy who runs a 135 operation out of KMKC, I could pick his brain I suppose... This is all an ambitious brainstorm from my buddy, I told him I'd look into what it would take. So far, a lot. lol...

Do not, under any circumstances, buy an airplane to do this. Farm the operation of the aircraft out to someone who already has the equipment and experience. Concentrate on building demand and arranging a quality experience.

If things work out well, and you have a solid business going, then investigate running your own aviation operation. As of now, you have no idea of how much demand you have, if any.

 

[scorpio]

I agree reciprocity agreements aren't uncommon. The clubs may set some limit on number of golfers a month. If you could arrange for allowing guests, not just members of the agreeing clubs, it would be beneficial. I could see several guys I know taking a foursome as a perk or corporate event and being able to write it off. Again, having desirable courses they couldn't otherwise access would be the key.

I completely agree with farming it out. if you could manage to get 8-10 fairly exclusive clubs involved you could set up a nice little network and hopefully work about discounts with all parties.

 

[comanchepilot]

Fantasyland

 

[weilke]

Guys in Alaska hauling clients to their lodges in them as we speak. Just a courtesy ride for clients.

So under the 'you can do this in Alaska' legal standard its ok then.

§21.191 Experimental certificates.
Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:
.
.
(d) Exhibition. Exhibiting the aircraft's flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics at air shows, motion picture, television, and similar productions, and the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying to and from such air shows and productions.

 

[weilke]

Now the question is, if we're going with a larger aircraft, are we better off with a large cabin class twin piston or a single turboprop? Hourly operating costs are roughly the same for longer flights, shorter flights favor the pistons by some margin. Acquisition costs (again, other people's money) are significantly higher with a turboprop but so is the wow factor for the customer.

The smallest plane your target customer is going to get into is a King Air or PC12. There are several charter operators based in the KC metro. Air Associates at OJC lists a KA200 for 1425/hr, the other side of the airport offers a Pilatus for 1400/hr. If you buy 50hrs at a time and commit to call on those hours only on the weekend, you may be able to get a better hourly price (or a fixed mile based price for the trips you are proposing).

Just for a rough estimate, KOJC--> KSUX is about 55min in either of these aircraft. Make it 2hrs for the return trip, assuming that the operator doesn't charge you for keeping the plane on site for the day. Add a van from KSUX to Dakota Dunes and some catering and you are looking at 3.2k for each round-trip. Either of these planes on that short of a route can carry 2 foursomes, so you are looking at a transportation bill of 400/butt. Do you think your target market is willing to cough up $400 ? (rather than hopping into their Tahoe, book a hotel for the night and play one round Sat afternoon and another one Sun morning )

 

[ZeroPapaGolf]

Liking the Navajo options. Carries more weight than a C414 and is almost as fast as a C421. Generally less expensive than the Cessna twins as well even the pressurized PA-31P & Mojave are at less of a premium.

Read that VMC is actually lower than the stall speed, that is very comforting and a huge safety factor I would think. Useful load is usually around 2,500lbs, cruise in the teens at 200kts and about 36gph. Even better is the TIO-540 Lycs which seem to be more reliable powerplants (judging by the ADs) than the TCMs that are on the Cessnas.

Any PIREPS on the PA-31s, do we like them? : )

I fly a PA-31-310C, and like it a lot. 175 knots on 33 gpg total in the 7-10k range. Cruising in the teens on oxygen has not been worth the hassle unless there are mountains requiring it. An engine failure at gross weight will require good airmanship, but it's a very capable airplane. Comfortable and reliable. We've done a number of upgrades, including a G600 panel, winglets, nosewheel steering disconnect, and inner gear door delete. Not sure if the winglets were worth it but everything else is the bees knees.

 

[labbadabba]

I fly a PA-31-310C, and like it a lot. 175 knots on 33 gpg total in the 7-10k range. Cruising in the teens on oxygen has not been worth the hassle unless there are mountains requiring it. An engine failure at gross weight will require good airmanship, but it's a very capable airplane. Comfortable and reliable. We've done a number of upgrades, including a G600 panel, winglets, nosewheel steering disconnect, and inner gear door delete. Not sure if the winglets were worth it but everything else is the bees knees.

Do you have a good estimate about your operating costs? Feel free to PM if you'd rather.