Help with landings

SC777

SC777

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
126
Display Name
Display name:
SC777
36 hours in. Check ride booked for next month. Feel pretty good about everything except sometimes my landings just plain suck when I’m solo. Not sure if it’s due to less wait in the 172, winds, or I just suck. Today, winds were 270-300 at 9-12kts. Rwy 25L. Nothing drastic. 1st landing ended up being a go around. Was slightly fast on final. Greased the 3rd landing but the others felt as if I was fighting the airplane the whole way around. Was trimming as much as I could. On crosswind and base it felt as if I was being pushed into skids even though the wind wasn’t that strong. Tried to nail 65 on final and 60 short final. Even with ailerons I to the Xwind I was getting pushed to the left. Any help would be much appreciated. I feel confident in all other areas except this.
 

Attachments

  • ADAD655B-8DD4-4241-B5D4-6FCE91E26E8F.jpeg
    ADAD655B-8DD4-4241-B5D4-6FCE91E26E8F.jpeg
    143.9 KB · Views: 25
#1 fly a low wing
#2 if ur checkride is scheduled, ur cfi must think ur ready or close to ready, so just keep practicing. maybe spend extra time on xwind landings. if u got a good xwind or it's rockin and rollin down final, u just gotta WORK for it, u can't just sit back. work it.
 
Sometimes you have to work for a landing. Always fly the plane, don't let it do whatever it feels like. Sometimes that means you have to work hard due to gusts and quirky wind.
 
eman1200 said:
#1 fly a low wing
#2 if ur checkride is scheduled, ur cfi must think ur ready or close to ready, so just keep practicing. maybe spend extra time on xwind landings. if u got a good xwind or it's rockin and rollin down final, u just gotta WORK for it, u can't just sit back. work it.
Click to expand...
Please, PLEASE, use your words!
 
By "ailerons into the wind" I assume you mean slipping to maintain track along the runway centerline. If the excessive drift is happening to you on long final, I'll offer a suggestion you can discuss with your instructor and try for yourself. That is, try crabbing down final, and don't transition to a slip until "close" to the runway. How "close" depends on your comfort level making late flight attitude adjustments. My reasoning for this approach, which I use in every plane I've flown (C152, C172, PA28, AA1A, AA5, AA5B) is two-fold: (1) slipping all the way down final can be uncomfortable and (2) since winds decrease with decreasing altitude, the magnitude of control inputs will be less at lower altitude, which will result in a more comfortable slip, and will allow you to handle stronger crosswinds easily. My home airport is crosswind central, with a a N-S runway and 400 foot ridgeline on either side that adds entertaining burbles to every approach with typical westerly winds. Everyone that trained at our airport had to get on the right side of crosswind technique.

It sounds like you have a good grip on the basics. Nailing the appropriate POH approach speed to prevent excessive float is definitely important to good landings, especially in a crosswind. (My notes from my C-172N days show 70 mph on final approach, or about 60 kt. If it's really gusty, maybe 65 kt, but no more.) Personally, I like to crab until just before the flare, then transition to a slip to hold the runway centerline, flare, and land on the upwind wheel first. You may find that very little slip is required right above the runway. A key skill is to use your feet proactively to keep the nose pointed in the right direction once you transition into the slip. The ailerons are for controlling drift. The rudder is used to point the nose. More ailerons, more rudder needed. It's easier than it sounds in words. Don't ignore the rudder. To this day, I can still hear in my mind's recesses my primary instructor screaming "Use your feet! Use your feet!" on every crosswind landing. Good advice.
 
FastEddieB said:
Please expand on that. It sounds a little “off” to me.
Click to expand...

The tail being pushed outward necessitating more than usual rudder application to bring the ball back to center. What sounds “off”?
 
SC777 said:
The tail being pushed outward necessitating more than usual rudder application to bring the ball back to center. What sounds “off”?
Click to expand...

Wind doesn't push on a part of the plane in flight. It pushes the whole plane. If you are slipping to maintain runway centerline and alignment of the aircraft long axis with the runway, you will not be in coordinated flight, and the ball will not be (nor should it be) centered.
 
SC777 said:
The tail being pushed outward necessitating more than usual rudder application to bring the ball back to center. What sounds “off”?
Click to expand...

As chemgeek posted above, there's no "wind" to "push" just the tail of the plane into a skid.

I'll go farther and say the use of the word "push", even in chemgeek's reply, can be misleading. There is no "push" at all on a plane in flight, nor any wind* - the plane is flying along "unpushed" in a mass of air which is itself moving over the ground. It may sound pedantic, but it can also point out a basic misunderstanding of aerodynamics - what I've called a "Stick and Rudder Moment" in another thread.


*Barring gusts and shear - but that's not a factor in this overall discussion.
 
FastEddieB said:
As chemgeek posted above, there's no "wind" to "push" just the tail of the plane into a skid.

I'll go farther and say the use of the word "push", even in chemgeek's reply, can be misleading. There is no "push" at all on a plane in flight, nor any wind* - the plane is flying along "unpushed" in a mass of air which is itself moving over the ground. It may sound pedantic, but it can also point out a basic misunderstanding of aerodynamics - what I've called a "Stick and Rudder Moment" in another thread.
Click to expand...
If you have ever been in a balloon, you will understand Eddie's post. Even with a balloons ground speed of say 10 kts, in the basket there is not a breath of breeze. The air is as calm as you have ever felt. You can hear EVERYTHING happening on the ground. Front doors opening and closing. Cars moving on roads. People chatting. I found it rather eerie.

Likewise, if you have ever scuba dived during a tide change. Although, you maybe swimming 30 feet off the bottom and watching it stream by at a kt or 2, there is no perception of the current. Around you the water is still. You only feel the current if you attempt to remain stationary over one point or you attempt to approach a target. If you are attempting to swim to a target, you must make a current adjustment, exactly as though you were on approach to a runway with a crosswind.
 
Well put, Dominick.

Another way to put it is to imagine pressure sensors distributed around the plane’s fuselage.

Flying at 100 kts into a 100 kt headwind will have identical readings as with a 100 kt tailwind.

Similarly, with a 100 kt crosswind, identical readings whether you crab Into the wind or allow it to drift you downwind.

In virtually every case where someone mentions an airplane in flight being “pushed” by the wind, I think they’d be better served by using the word “drifted”. Of course, most of the time it’s a benign misuse of the word “pushed”, and we all know what they probably mean. But again it can result in a faulty mental model of the forces actually at work.
 
Last edited:
All y'alls theories work pretty well right up until a gust meets Newton. When a gust broadsides an airplane in flight, the total force on the vertical stabilizer will far exceed any of the forces forward of the vertical axis (except, perhaps, in a Shorts 360 :D). The result will be a momentary yawing rotation until equalization is achieved (the new WCA is reached).
 
smv said:
All y'alls theories work pretty well right up until a gust meets Newton.
Click to expand...

Of course.

But I’m pretty sure the post that started this was not referring to a random gust just happening to hit the tail of the plane, causing a skid.

“On crosswind and base it felt as if I was being pushed into skids even though the wind wasn’t that strong.”

If he did mean a random gust rather than just “the wind”, then I stand corrected.
 
Last edited:
FastEddieB said:
Of course.

But I’m pretty sure the post that started this was not referring to a random gust just happening to hit the tail of the plane, causing a skid. If it was, then I stand corrected.
Click to expand...

You may be right but that is how I interpreted OP's vague description. i could be wrong, however... It is already July, after all, and I am about due... :D
 
Yes, I was referring to gusts, not a constant steady wind. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. Thanks for the scuba diving comparison. Not sure I’ll be thinking much about flippers and O2 tanks much on base to final tho . It’s all good, I’ll figure it out through lots of practice.
 
If gusts are causing a termporary yaw into the wind, then that there is what the rudder is for. Use your feet! (To maintain nose alignment with the runway.) You can fix a yaw error with aileron, but it takes a long time to take effect compared to stepping on the rudder, and you have to saw the yoke back and forth to do it, keeping you endlessly behind the airplane on final.
 
One problem with this discussion is the different points of reference. The words "drift" and "gust" are ground reference terms.

In talking of an air mass it's "wind shear".
 
Go watch YouTube videos about landing by Rod Machado. I just did and will try them Next flight. He’s great.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top