Help me understand avionics business models

[4RNB]

I have a bad and at times expensive habit of imagining myself in others shoes. Since my plane is in for upgrades, I can't help but picture running an avionics shop. Help me understand something please.

It seems like a large amount of time involved in an upgrade is spent building and connecting wires? I've been told that all the remote stuff like servos have been installed, all the equipment is there, and it seemed like a week worth of labor or more is dedicated to wiring and connections. Let's just call it a minimum of 40 hours labor @$100 each or $4,000 for wiring. Is this reasonable? I think it might be much more.

What do prebuilt wiring harnesses cost? I used to dream of building an RV, saw shops that specialized in this. For example, see the advanced control module at the following link: https://www.advancedflightsystems.com/advanced-panels.php

In the certified world it seems steinair does this: https://www.steinair.com/services/harnesses/

If I were running an avionics business, I'd have to think hard about working closely with a quality vendor of premade wiring stuff. The benefits seem to be better use of shop labor, quicker turn around time, and perhaps happier customers. Seems higher profit ought to work into the equation also.

I saw a video of a guy that does not start working on a plane until all this stuff is built and on hand, he gets planes in and out in a month for full upgrades.

So, why don't more shops use premade harnesses?
Thanks

 

[Jesse Saint]

We use a lot of harnesses made by Approach Fast Stack, but no 2 harnesses are the same. There are always customizations due to other equipment that must be interfaced with what you are putting in, as well as distances between equipment. Even the shops that build harnesses spend a lot of time designing and building the harnesses. AFS and Stein customize their harnesses for the individual plane. There is also a great deal of time involved in installing the harness, especially if you have to go beyond just the panel area.

 

[4RNB]

We use a lot of harnesses made by Approach Fast Stack, but no 2 harnesses are the same. There are always customizations due to other equipment that must be interfaced with what you are putting in, as well as distances between equipment. Even the shops that build harnesses spend a lot of time designing and building the harnesses. AFS and Stein customize their harnesses for the individual plane. There is also a great deal of time involved in installing the harness, especially if you have to go beyond just the panel area.

thanks.

how long does it take to build wiring?
How much time is saved using pre made?
Can’t most factors be accounted for such that premade is possible? My panel layout was known a year ago in a common airframe

 

[Brad W]

One issue I imagine is that panels, especially now days, are very custom layouts. It seem that no two are the same. I guess it's always been that way to a degree, even back in my day with the std old fashioned 6-packs (and the older vintage non-std layouts)
It just seems to me that there is nearly ZERO standardization for anything....and sidebar, I see that as a negative for pilots and transitioning from one bird to the next on the flightline....

• switch locations
• avionics locations
• mix and match avionics brands and types
• fuse locations and layouts
• etc....

also, I was with my wife over the weekend buying a new car for her. The finance manager in the extended warranty sales pitch said their shop rate is now $190/hr!.... so your $100/hr might be off a bit???
I don't know but $190 seems ludicrous to me and is very likely arbitrary just because they can get away with it.... a quick google search indicates makes about $15/hr-$25/hr....so....

 

[4RNB]

One issue I imagine is that panels, especially now days, are very custom layouts. It seem that no two are the same. I guess it's always been that way to a degree, even back in my day with the std old fashioned 6-packs (and the older vintage non-std layouts)
It just seems to me that there is nearly ZERO standardization for anything....and sidebar, I see that as a negative for pilots and transitioning from one bird to the next on the flightline....

• switch locations
• avionics locations
• mix and match avionics brands and types
• fuse locations and layouts
• etc....

also, I was with my wife over the weekend buying a new car for her. The finance manager in the extended warranty sales pitch said their shop rate is now $190/hr!.... so your $100/hr might be off a bit???
I don't know but $190 seems ludicrous to me and is very likely arbitrary just because they can get away with it.... a quick google search indicates makes about $15/hr-$25/hr....so....

I get that there might not be a standard panel. But for something like a servo for an AP, wouldn't the exact location be known? Along with the exact path to the cockpit? And if one knows the exact location of items in the panel, it seems that the exact length of wiring would be known before any work begins?

My shop was $85 an hour, only taking work a year out.

 

[mondtster]

FWIW, For the first 15 years of my career I designed, constructed, programmed, and installed electrical/electronics systems in custom construction vehicles (hand built). Now I do something similar for custom constructed test equipment and test cells. I also am an aircraft mechanic and do avionics work for select clients.

Never once have I found a prefab harness that I thought was worth buying. They always have had some sort of shortcoming that drove me to either modify it or throw it away and start over. If I am going to “own” the installation then I am going to know what the wiring is like and it will be to my standards.

By all means, if you’re okay with mysteries or wadded up wiring behind panels, then feel free to use prefab harnesses but even Piper constructs their harnesses in house for each aircraft.

 

[Brad W]

I get that there might not be a standard panel. But for something like a servo for an AP, wouldn't the exact location be known? Along with the exact path to the cockpit? And if one knows the exact location of items in the panel, it seems that the exact length of wiring would be known before any work begins?

My shop was $85 an hour, only taking work a year out.

mind you I know nothing about the business...but have tons of experience with industrial instrumentation and control

ok, fair enough, the servo end of the wiring might be known and fixed, and a general path to the panel might be known and fixed, but that's less certain because of other things that could have been put in the way from previous upgrades or whatever....
but if the location in the panel is not uniform, then that end of the harness would change for every panel..... no longer standard
now I suppose they could just make the wire long enough and ball the extra wire up someplace
but they might need to leave one end blank and not bundled anyway, so they can fish the wire through....in which case they'd have to field terminate the wires anyway....

 

[Brad W]

seems to me that about the only standard harness that might uniformly be useful more often is short runs behind the panel....such as from a radio in the stack to the audio panel also in the stack....even then, it would almost have to be too long for at least some applications

 

[Bell206]

So, why don't more shops use premade harnesses?

In my experience, its the routing and securing of the harness that takes the time and effort and not building/terminating the harness. Plus I never found an accurate method to measure for a harness except for runs between racks especially when you consider service loops, routing requirements, the uniqueness of each aircraft, etc. When I did use premade harnesses I would only have the rack side terminated and leave the other end unterminated and 5 feet long. So while premade harnesses can save some time in certain circumstances it is not always the most productive route for an entire install.

 

[Eric Pauley]

Is there any actual issue with harnesses being too long? Sure, "pride", "weight and balance", "signal integrity" (use better cable) etc. But at the end of the day I'd give up pride and a few pounds to save 10k on an avionics install.

 

[4RNB]

I'm not really thinking of it as saving 10K, just saving time, inconvenience, customers getting flying sooner.
For example, if an install should take 2 months start to finish, but prebuilt wiring saves 3-4 weeks, isn't that worth paying a bit more for? What if it was a 32K job, versus 30 K but you saved a month of time? And the shop could then make more customers happy, thus create more demand?

A Garmin G3x ought only have a limited things to connect to, it is not like there is infinite variability is there?

I'll trust everyone's comments on lengths, but really do not understand. Again, for a given airframe, seems path of wiring is limited. Add in "X" amount for a service loop, then the specific amount for where the unit of concern will be located. Even easier with a master control module as linked in first post. Especially if available in the certified world.

 

[Bell206]

Is there any actual issue with harnesses being too long?

Yes, in some cases. All that extra wire needs to be routed and secured so as not to create a new hazard. And in limited space like behind some panels it can and will create its own issue.

For example, if an install should take 2 months start to finish, but prebuilt wiring saves 3-4 weeks, isn't that worth paying a bit more for? What if it was a 32K job, versus 30 K but you saved a month of time? And the shop could then make more customers happy, thus create more demand?

I dont quite follow your figures, as the bulk of my time spent on avionics or electrical wiring projects was spent on gaining access to the wires, removal of the old wires, modifications for the new equipment, installation of the new wires, and closing things back up after all the function checks. Fabricating the harnesses, both electrical and avionics types, were a much smaller portion of the job especially on a build board. But yes I did charge more for the harnesses simply because my material costs were higher as I did not buy supplies in bulk. Now I never did auto pilot install or similar but have rewired entire aircraft to include helicopters so I guess I just don't see how premade harnesses will save you that 3-4 weeks on a 8 week job. But YMMV.

I'll trust everyone's comments on lengths, but really do not understand.

An example. Measure the wire(s) length from the turn signal lever on your vehicle to the R/H aft bulb socket. Then measure another similar vehicle but 1 year newer or older. Let us know what you come up with.

Again, for a given airframe, seems path of wiring is limited.

Not really. Take any block of the same aircraft model and there will be variances. A lot of items are hand-crafted and custom when it comes to aircraft to include the airframes.

 

[4RNB]

Yes, in some cases. All that extra wire needs to be routed and secured so as not to create a new hazard. And in limited space like behind some panels it can and will create its own issue.

I dont quite follow your figures, as the bulk of my time spent on avionics or electrical wiring projects was spent on gaining access to the wires, removal of the old wires, modifications for the new equipment, installation of the new wires, and closing things back up after all the function checks. Fabricating the harnesses, both electrical and avionics types, were a much smaller portion of the job especially on a build board. But yes I did charge more for the harnesses simply because my material costs were higher as I did not buy supplies in bulk. Now I never did auto pilot install or similar but have rewired entire aircraft to include helicopters so I guess I just don't see how premade harnesses will save you that 3-4 weeks on a 8 week job. But YMMV.

An example. Measure the wire(s) length from the turn signal lever on your vehicle to the R/H aft bulb socket. Then measure another similar vehicle but 1 year newer or older. Let us know what you come up with.

Not really. Take any block of the same aircraft model and there will be variances. A lot of items are hand-crafted and custom when it comes to aircraft to include the airframes.

Thanks. My figures were made up...my plane is in the shop, it seemed like an entire week was dedicated to wiring at the panel, putting connectors on end of wires. I was only there for a few minutes.

All of this is born out of
a- curiosity
b- frustration with my avionics install

I am not able to measure that wiring as an example.

 

[mondtster]

The hand crafted aspect of aircraft, even production ones, is something that often gets overlooked when it comes to any kind of aircraft maintenance or upgrades, even if the project is something relatively simple. Oftentimes a lot more research labor goes into a project than hands on time does. This could be why it looks like an entire week went into the wiring at the instrument panel.

 

[Rockymountain]

The labor rate also includes the infrastructure, tooling and support for the technician. But what a crazy job doing one off panels. Seems like an overwhelming process to me. Even for a relatively simple panel.

 

[Daleandee]

"Help me understand avionics business models"

I guess they are much like any other smart business - "we make money today, make friends tomorrow"

Seriously, I've applauded the avionics guys before as what they do is beyond my level of patience.

I wired my own build and it was simple VFR sport plane. It was a lesson in what I wouldn't want to do for a living ...

 

[Randomskylane]

The labor rate also includes the infrastructure, tooling and support for the technician. But what a crazy job doing one off panels. Seems like an overwhelming process to me. Even for a relatively simple panel.
View attachment 117138

Why are all of the wires white? Seems like that would slow down the process by a fair amount

 

[Daleandee]

Why are all of the wires white? Seems like that would slow down the process by a fair amount

The smart folks mark their Tefzel wires at each end with a number (or at least I did).

 

[Bell206]

Why are all of the wires white? Seems like that would slow down the process by a fair amount

The original specification only provided for white. However newer technologies brought color into Mil-Spec wires. Kapton wire is/was a gold color however was a huge failure but not due to color. Regardless all wires are required to be identified/marked which does work better on a white background. As to slowing the process down not really. A good schematic and wire marks keep things moving right along. Know a couple color blind individuals who are quite happy for white wire as well.

 

[Salty]

Why are all of the wires white? Seems like that would slow down the process by a fair amount

I’ve thought about this a lot.

It’s not cheap to stock enough of every color of every type of wire you may need.

Color coding 95% of the wiring is almost worse than no color coding at all. Just one wire the wrong color will waste more time than all the other pretty ones save.

 

[donjohnston]

One of the factors that you're missing is that a premade harness doesn't always fit. As in the connectors might not fit through all of the openings that it has to route through. If you want a nice install, you can't beat a built on-site harness.

Another factor the cost of tooling. You can go buy a crimping tool at harbor freight for $20. But for a connection to an AP that's flying your plane through the soup, I want something like a DMC AF8. The tool itself is around $500. The turrets for different connectors can cost up to $200... each. Do you have to use $1,000 in crimping tools? Nope. But if you do it for a living, you're probably going to have the good stuff.

And then there's knowing how to connect everything.

It reminds of the story about the boilermaker who got called in to fix a huge steamship boiler system that was not working well.

After listening to the engineer’s description of the problems and asking a few questions, he went to the boiler room. He looked at the maze of twisting pipes, listened to the thump of the boiler and the hiss of the escaping steam for a few minutes, and felt some pipes with his hands. Then he hummed softly to himself, reached into his overalls and took out a small hammer, and tapped a bright red valve one time. Immediately, the entire system began working perfectly, and the boilermaker went home.

When the steamship owner received a bill for one thousand dollars, he became outraged and complained that the boilermaker had only been in the engine room for fifteen minutes and requested an itemized bill. So the boilermaker sent him a bill that reads as follows:
For tapping the valve: $.50
For knowing where to tap: $999.50
TOTAL: $1,000.00”

 

[Ed Haywood]

Why are all of the wires white? Seems like that would slow down the process by a fair amount

Just the opposite. Running out of the right color in the right gauge slows down the process more.

Also, the color scheme should be consistent throughout the aircraft. If avionics shops and harness fabricators had to match a custom scheme for each aircraft, that would really gum up the works.

I just rewired my panel from scratch. I did deviate from white where I felt it would facilitate trouble shooting and service. I made all ground wires black, which is a huge help. I also made the panel dimming circuit yellow and shield drains green. I numbered and labeled both ends of every wire.

 

[WDD]

Probably a matter of volume. A car manufacturer that makes hundreds of thousands of cars a year of a specific type and configuration makes standard harnesses of course. Standardization and pre made harnesses make perfect sense.

Given the low volume of work and the myriad of GA aircraft the economies of scale aren't there.

Maybe someday all avionics will be USB plug and play. And then the USB standard will change from "C" to the next version LOL.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Some things do come with premade harnesses. I just installed a JPI EDM 830 and everything was in the kit. 4 separate harnesses, with sufficient wire tails to accommodate most circumstances. But that is a ton of pin connections, at least 50. Building those harnesses from scratch would take most of a day, and Murphy's Law guarantees you'll discover after installing that you made a mistake with one of the pinouts.


OTOH the AV-30 I installed did not come with a harness. I prewired for OAT, GPS, and remote magnetometer. Each of those are shielded, so the shield drain grounds were a bit elaborate. Shielded multi-connector wire is expensive, splicing it is a big PITA, and everyone's configuration is unique, so it doesn't make much business sense for them to include the harness.

 

[Warmi]

One of the factors that you're missing is that a premade harness doesn't always fit. As in the connectors might not fit through all of the openings that it has to route through. If you want a nice install, you can't beat a built on-site harness.

Another factor the cost of tooling. You can go buy a crimping tool at harbor freight for $20. But for a connection to an AP that's flying your plane through the soup, I want something like a DMC AF8. The tool itself is around $500. The turrets for different connectors can cost up to $200... each. Do you have to use $1,000 in crimping tools? Nope. But if you do it for a living, you're probably going to have the good stuff.

And then there's knowing how to connect everything.

It reminds of the story about the boilermaker who got called in to fix a huge steamship boiler system that was not working well.

After listening to the engineer’s description of the problems and asking a few questions, he went to the boiler room. He looked at the maze of twisting pipes, listened to the thump of the boiler and the hiss of the escaping steam for a few minutes, and felt some pipes with his hands. Then he hummed softly to himself, reached into his overalls and took out a small hammer, and tapped a bright red valve one time. Immediately, the entire system began working perfectly, and the boilermaker went home.

When the steamship owner received a bill for one thousand dollars, he became outraged and complained that the boilermaker had only been in the engine room for fifteen minutes and requested an itemized bill. So the boilermaker sent him a bill that reads as follows:
For tapping the valve: $.50
For knowing where to tap: $999.50
TOTAL: $1,000.00”

You can get a tool at Aircraft Spruce for about $50 that will work just as well as $500 certified.

 

[donjohnston]

You can get a tool at Aircraft Spruce for about $50 that will work just as well as $500 certified.

And some people are happy with retreads on their cars. So?

Mine is that the people who do avionics work for a living don't typically try to save a few bucks on the tools they make their living with.

 

[nauga]

You can get a tool at Aircraft Spruce for about $50 that will work just as well as $500 certified.

Have you actually used both on a variety of pins? You can have my DMC crimper when you pry my cold dead fingers from the nice blue handle.

ETA: I have a cheap crimper with changeable jaws for terminals that works well, but for D-sub pins and sockets nothing works as well as my DMC with the correct turret.

Nauga,
with a cabinet full of of cheepness

 

[Ed Haywood]

And some people are happy with retreads on their cars. So?

Mine is that the people who do avionics work for a living don't typically try to save a few bucks on the tools they make their living with.

People who do avionics for a living amortize the cost of their tools across dozens or hundreds of jobs. If you do 100 avionics installs, that DMC crimper adds 5 bucks to each job. That undermines your point about the cost of tooling.
Professional grade tools are a wise investment ... for professionals.

 

[Eric Pauley]

People who do avionics for a living amortize the cost of their tools across dozens or hundreds of jobs. If you do 100 avionics installs, that DMC crimper adds 5 bucks to each job. That undermines your point about the cost of tooling.
Professional grade tools are a wise investment ... for professionals.

When the DMC AF9 comes out in 2025 though that old unit is junk for sure. Gotta budget for that.

 

[donjohnston]

People who do avionics for a living amortize the cost of their tools across dozens or hundreds of jobs. If you do 100 avionics installs, that DMC crimper adds 5 bucks to each job. That undermines your point about the cost of tooling.
Professional grade tools are a wise investment ... for professionals.

You forgot the turrets. And sending them in for calibration. And interest. And the 8 other crimpers that you need for the other connectors that you don't use the DMC crimper on. And the fluke meter.

Need I go on?

 

[Bell206]

And sending them in for calibration

While there's no DMC required calibration interval, you'll find its the build tolerances and repeatability of those tolerances that separate most cheaper tools from quality tools. Precision and its repeatability cost money. In the case of these type crimpers I found the cheaper ones wouldnt consistantly hold a crimp depth and usually faulted to the over-crimp side. Sure the crimp functionally works, but you significantly up the odds you'll have issues after several years of flying and vibration. It got to the point with some troubleshooting adventures my 1st question was who built the harnesses.

However, going top-shelf doesnt need to break the bank either. There is a well developed used market for tools of this level. And you can also rent them in some cases. I've done both. But who am I to say otherwise. I've made a good piece of coin with the use of cheap tools... except I wasnt the one using them.

 

[nauga]

Professional grade tools are a wise investment ... for professionals.

The thread is about professionals. If you want your avionics shop using a cheap crimper with the associated headaches in assembly and later on that is your prerogative. I *am* my avionics shop and I have far fewer issues with a more expensive crimper. I will fight you, however, if you tell me I need an expensive die grinder over my $8 Central pneumatic. It doesn't see a lot of use when building harnesses, though.

Nauga,
who jams econo

 

[Chip Sylverne]

A well-calibrated 14lb pin or socket test tug can improve the quality of the work product immensely. As can test while the build is in progress, and not waiting till the end.

It's a poor workman who blames his tools.

 

[Jorge Gonzalez]

I have done avionics for years. Engineering design, harness building, installation, etc. The actual harness build itself is easy. Its the design that can take a LOT of time. Especially in these GA airplanes. Lots of mods have been done (improperly most times) without labeling what went in. The avionics guys have to go in and figure out what it is.
Also, I have seen shops where it takes the tech a little too long just to terminate a connector. Actually saw a tech take 5 hours to terminate 5 wires in one connector. Those 5 hours were charged to the customer. Just plain wrong there. Some shops are good, some shops are bad.
There are LOTS of things why an install can take time.
Heck, I have done to complete panel upgrades for free, just because I like what I do. Customer paid for parts and I even put in all the consumables. I have seen shops have a line item charge of $1000 for consumables when it actually was only maybe $100.
I don't do work for people anymore due to liability. People are just *****holes and try to scam for anything. Never had it happen to me, but I see it all the time. "You installed the GPS, but now the prop is not running right. You broke the prop." Yeah, Ok. Another reason why shops charge high, Liability insurance is crazy.

One thing with avionics work though, its easy to do as long as you are patient, BUT you better have the correct tools!!!! Also, LABEL EVERYTHING YOU TOUCH!!

 

[Llk]

- A Rhino labeler is a god sent in avionics work when dealing with existing versus “I’m sorry but we will have to use brand new wiring” shops

- a local avionics shop in Chino charged $10k…just for the aluminum panel on a Piper. At $145 an hour, they’re proud of their labor and bill like Attorneys. Buyer beware.

- 22759 and 27500 wire from eBay comes in a ton of colors - no need to wait for Spruce

- It’s common practice for shops to charge 50-100% of the cost of the hardware being installed as labor - regardless of the amount of time spent on the install. Don’t get taken.

- People that specialize in cutting panels often charge less than 50% of what avionics shops charge - and often are the same vendors that avionics shops starting out use.

- many shops use “avionics apprentices” - and still charge $full rate for their time. Careful paying for someone else’s training at full rate - I have gotten many a job from shops that do that.

- the majority of shops that will schedule you 6 months out for an install bill proudly when the job is done…regardless of how long your plane is kept.

- monopolized avionics shops tend to bill 30-50% more than individually owned shops.

- a Navcomm will take about an hour or two to install if you know what you’re doing on a bad day. An audio panel 2-4 hours not including swapping out phone jacks.

Ymmv…

 

[Salty]

- a Navcomm will take about an hour or two to install if you know what you’re doing on a bad day. An audio panel 2-4 hours not including swapping out phone jacks.

…

That’s a bit misleading. Maybe in a plane without a lot of integrations and plenty of room to work. It takes me more than an hour of labor just to get to the harness for my avionics panel.

 

[4RNB]

- A Rhino labeler is a god sent in avionics work when dealing with existing versus “I’m sorry but we will have to use brand new wiring” shops

- a local avionics shop in Chino charged $10k…just for the aluminum panel on a Piper. At $145 an hour, they’re proud of their labor and bill like Attorneys. Buyer beware.

- 22759 and 27500 wire from eBay comes in a ton of colors - no need to wait for Spruce

- It’s common practice for shops to charge 50-100% of the cost of the hardware being installed as labor - regardless of the amount of time spent on the install. Don’t get taken.

- People that specialize in cutting panels often charge less than 50% of what avionics shops charge - and often are the same vendors that avionics shops starting out use.

- many shops use “avionics apprentices” - and still charge $full rate for their time. Careful paying for someone else’s training at full rate - I have gotten many a job from shops that do that.

- the majority of shops that will schedule you 6 months out for an install bill proudly when the job is done…regardless of how long your plane is kept. Can you explain this better? I don’t understand the above as written.



- monopolized avionics shops tend to bill 30-50% more than individually owned shops.

- a Navcomm will take about an hour or two to install if you know what you’re doing on a bad day. An audio panel 2-4 hours not including swapping out phone jacks.

Ymmv…

 

[Tools]

The reason you’re experiencing difficulty is a lack of good skilled workers. Period.

As a guy who has run an avionics shop, I’m here to tell ya it’s HARD to find a reliable skilled worker. Hired half a dozen who said they could do the work. Wrong…

And the ones that could, were terrible workers.

Never did find one…. Doesn’t sound like your shop has either.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Hot tip: Rhino labels work just fine in a standard label maker.

I use the flexible nylon Rhino labels and cover with clear heat shrink.

 

[wilkersk]

...And the ones that could, were terrible workers....

65 years old, can't keep glasses up high enough on my nose to be able to read wire, pin/socket numbers. I gotta pee every 20 minutes and my wife's ****ed if I'm not home by 3 to help wrangle the grandkids.

I swore after the last one-off panel, I wasn't going to do anymore. But here I am, ass deep in a 1974 Grumman Lynx. There's 10lbs of unused crap ahead of the instrument panel. Unterminated wires everywhere. Chaffing and arcing evidence. And none of the breakers are labeled. The few wires that are labeled are the original wires and have been repurposed for various things, so that useless.

You want fast cheap and good? Well, fast and cheap are no longer an option. If you want good, don't bug me!