Help Explain: Best Possible Speed

[EdFred]

Congrats on the wet ink, and you'll always find that you are learning something new. Sometimes even from people you wish you didn't.

And yeah, flaps outside the white arc. Never, ever for me as well.

 

[Sinistar]

Sounds like you did fine. This is routine at some airports with mixed jet/piston traffic.....

That's what I like about this airport. It a Delta. Its under a Bravo. It can be a bit busy. There is a nice mix of GA and biz jets and turbo props. On a Friday afternoon or a Saturday morning its not uncommon to have a Global Express taxi by. Or maybe a Falcon taking off on the long runway as I take off on the short runway. There are many times I wished I could have filmed that Citation or TBM or King Air or T-6's landing in parallel.

 

[steingar]

You can slow your Mooney from cruise speed to touchdown speed to starting less than 1 mile from the numbers. Not starting the slow down AT the numbers. In fact, we will go up, and if I can't get the Mooney to touchdown speed from cruise speed a mile from the numbers, I will wear Buckeye gear every Saturday next football season.

If I can, all you have to dois admit someone from Ann Arbor was smarter than you on here by putting it in your signature for football season. I won't even make you wear Maize and Blue.

Its on.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Try doing it in something other than a trainer and let us know how it went. I combine fast in my aircraft and I could wind up floating all the way to China.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-why-are-some-peole-saying-this-is-bad.56304/

 

[Hank S]

I was once asked to expedite my climb. I answered that my Cherokee's climb was about as expedited as it was going to get. Anyone asks me to speed up my approach in the Mooney is going to get queried about their runway length.

Oh, come on! I raised gear and flaps a d accelerated from 105 to 130 mph on an ILS for a Lear behind me. On my Instrument checkride. Started slowing again at 2 nm.

Couple of weks ago on my Flight Review, made a no flap landing at 3150' home field, nice and flat at 100 mph until short, short final. Hardly needed brakes, either.

Part of it is learn your plane and be comfortable in it.

 

[Ted]

You should always say "Unable" if given direction that you aren't comfortable doing. Never be afraid to say unable.

With that said, this is a common request when going into busy airports where you're the slow airplane relative to other traffic. I've gotten that in everything up to the Navajo, although nobody's asked me for it in the MU-2 yet.

Really it's a question of how fast are you comfortable going, and at what point are you comfortable getting the plane slowed down to landing speed? This is an individual question and one must take into account comfort with the plane, runway length, weather, etc. etc. There's really no set answer.

To give you an example of what's possible, a couple years ago I was flying with a friend in his Navajo into MCO, we were sandwiched in between a couple of 737s. "Navajo, maximum forward speed as long as practical, what will that be, and can you make the first taxiway?" "About 180 and we should." Beautiful VFR and I know Navajos. I'm right seat and we're training my friend. I talked him through it, but eventually he got uncomfortable with flying it himself so I took over.

We kept on doing about 180 going about a dot low on the glide slope with the power getting reduced, and then 1 mile from the runway nose up, approach flaps, gear down, full flaps, nose at the ground. Hit the numbers, first taxiway. "Navajo contact ground and nice job!" Always feels good when tower tells you that.

As you gain hours and gain comfort, your envelope will expand.

 

[denverpilot]

Both of my PPL instructors had me using the first 10deg flaps above the white arc so Jeff's comments regarding possible issues is now registered in my brain.

A lot of people still teach it. Anyone who’s owned a Skylane starts seeing others having repair bills from it and learns to avoid it.

 

[James331]

Oh, come on! I raised gear and flaps a d accelerated from 105 to 130 mph on an ILS for a Lear behind me. On my Instrument checkride. Started slowing again at 2 nm.

Couple of weks ago on my Flight Review, made a no flap landing at 3150' home field, nice and flat at 100 mph until short, short final. Hardly needed brakes, either.

Part of it is learn your plane and be comfortable in it.

Not sure I'd change configurations like that on short once established on a ILS, also what are you flying with a vref of 100mph zero flaps? Were you at max gross or something?

 

[Timbeck2]

What exactly does "Best Possible Speed" mean from ATC's directive?

It is said in place of, "don't dilly dally you slow POS" because they tend to frown at us if we use that language.

 

[Hank S]

Not sure I'd change configurations like that on short once established on a ILS, also what are you flying with a vref of 100mph zero flaps? Were you at max gross or something?

Yeah, I was a little fast, but not much. Vs|clean = 67 mph, so 1.3 Vs = 87 mph, whuch us about where I was on short final. Told the CFI my home field wouldn't be my first choice, especially with a 5000' field just 10 nm away, and 6500' with ILS 15nm away.

But it worked. Surprised me, too. He did comment that the approach was flat, but if you point a Mooney down even a little bit it accelerates, so it must be flat. Just flew it on the runway, some extra float but only normal, light braking. When I'm on my game, I made the 2000' exit with only light braking for the turn.

 

[benyflyguy]

Last time I checked, pitching/trimming up to slow down was Aviation 101. I thought that went without saying...

For a student pilot, particularly one who may have started in the 152 or 172, the 182's extra mass/inertia takes a bit of getting used to, and in "clean" configuration, it does not slow as quickly as its smaller stablemates.

I’d like to ditto that! Recently bought into a 182. Step up from 172’s, archers, and an arrow. I find it’s speed can get ahead of you quickly then it’s a ***** to slow down. Don’t want to drop the MP too far too fast, one in the arc with flaps ur gin, for me it can be tricky to get there sometimes but I’m getting better at it.
But still learning the slick tricks.

 

[midwestpa24]

I remember years ago in a Cessna while shooting a practice approach being told “Maintain maximum forward speed, MD-80 5 miles in trail”. My instructor at the time promptly replied, “This is our maximum forward speed, and if it helps we can break off.” We did.

 

[arkvet]

There’s a time and place for both. There needs to be building blocks though. You can’t teach a primary student to stay at Vne until 2 miles and dirty up when they’re first learning landings. Eventually you can teach them how the plane can settle but you can also teach them when to tell ATC unable.

Agree and I wasn’t at all suggesting that a student or fairly new PPL should make it a habit to do as I mentioned. I am suggesting it’s a good idea for students to be taught how to safely and efficiently slow their airplane down and to learn how quickly it can/can’t be done. At the same time educate the student why keeping that speed up can be pretty important at busy controlled airports.

I would think a big part of how a controller sequences his traffic is groundspeed. If I’m 15 miles out flying 150 knots and get sequenced between some big iron you can bet I may cause an issue if I slow to 100 knots that far out.

 

[N1120A]

I'm a little surprised you got a "keep your speed up" or similar in a 182, especially at a regular class D. I've gotten that from approach in a Warrior with a reasonably tired engine and our response was "we're just short of redline," so that was all he was getting. This sort of thing is always going to be more difficult in a fixed gear, because you don't have the added ability to drop gear to slow down on short final. It is much easier to keep 150 in a Bonanza to 3 miles out than it is to keep 120 in an Archer, because you have options to drop your speed.

 

[mtuomi]

What exactly does "Best Possible Speed" mean from ATC's directive?

It is said in place of, "don't dilly dally you slow POS" because they tend to frown at us if we use that language.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's actually said only because of 91.117(b).

 

[denverpilot]

I'm a little surprised you got a "keep your speed up" or similar in a 182, especially at a regular class D.

LOL. Why? Skylane doing 90 knots and the bizjet behind them has a closure rate of 60 knots faster?? We see this all the time at my home airport. Luckily we have parallel runways so they just move us over to the parallel to make way for the conga line of jets.

Skylane isn’t exactly a speed demon. You can fly it faster on approach as long as you know exactly how you’re going to slow it up to land... if you’re coming down to near minimums.

If you’re just practicing VMC or have a nice high overcast, no problem, fly it at cruise speed until about a mile out for easy transition to slow mode.

Half a mile out will be a challenge but do-able with practice.

Or just say “unable” and everybody come up with a better dance card.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Looking at the direct answers to the questions, the only one I sorta disagree with is the "no" to reporting the speed to ATC.

If the reason, as it usually is, is traffic separation with a much faster airplane behind you, I figure it will be helpful to let ATC know what I can give them. Not a requirement, but consistent with my personal general rule that it's always best for the pilot and ATC to be on the same page.

Only "sorta" disagree because I think that one is context-sensitive. I recognize ATC can ask if they need it, and giving them a number assumes you know what it is (the thread reminds me of the time I flew a practice ILS at 120 kts in a 172 )

 

[Ravioli]

If memory serves, OP is a student training in his own 182.

 

[EdFred]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's actually said only because of 91.117(b).

I've gotten the best possible speed request and neither aircraft I've gotten in was going to be doing 200+kts indicated.

 

[Sinistar]

If memory serves, OP is a student training in his own 182.

Actually, finished up in February. Did about 85% of my training at this same Delta with more takeoffs and landings than I care to remember. In all those arrivals I had never been given this request. Thus the original question. Periodically I like to fly to this Delta and do some pattern work, brush up on radio work and stop in at the old FBO. Its like I always learn something on a trip like this.

 

[Sinistar]

I'm a little surprised you got a "keep your speed up" or similar in a 182, especially at a regular class D. I've gotten that from approach in a Warrior with a reasonably tired engine and our response was "we're just short of redline," so that was all he was getting. This sort of thing is always going to be more difficult in a fixed gear, because you don't have the added ability to drop gear to slow down on short final. It is much easier to keep 150 in a Bonanza to 3 miles out than it is to keep 120 in an Archer, because you have options to drop your speed.

I was surprised too. But I learned something! Maybe I'll get this request at a busier, unfamiliar airport on a cross country - at least I know it is and how to deal with it.

 

[arkvet]

Concerning GA aircraft I don’t think the type has much impact on getting the request to “keep maximum speed up”. Be it a PA-28 or an A36 they all have a higher cruise speed than approach/ landing speed. All ATC is requesting is that (within your margin of safety) you fly as deep into the approach as possible before slowing down. The speed and distance will vary between all of us but the vast majority of us have the skill set to get to expedite the landing by enough to provide ATC that little extra separation they were wanting. Nothing more.

During a few flights over the MEM I have gotten the request to “keep maximum speed” on approach. No problem. The runway is over 8,000 feet. One visual approach I came in a little under the Glide slope and never came out of cruise power until a mile or so from the numbers. I cut power and applied just a smidge of slip. As soon as I got slow enough threw in some flaps and got down and out of the way. Within a minute a FedEx jet came in right behind me. I get it. Had I slowed and put out flaps 3-4 miles out I can assure you one of us (me I’m sure) would have been vectored away for resequence.

 

[tspear]

A few posts here have mentioned alternate slowing techniques.
Some work better than others on specific planes (e.g. slips work great on high wing Cessnas with a touch of nose up).
Since I do not fly a Cessna normally; does anyone have a good list for @Sinistar to practice and add to his bag of tricks?

Lastly, I was taught a PPL is just a license to learn. So keep learning...

Tim

 

[flyingcheesehead]

1.) What exactly does "Best Possible Speed" mean from ATC's directive.

I've usually heard it "Best Forward Speed" and that's what it means - Keep going as fast as you can for as long as you can. That means within both the limits of the aircraft, and yourself as a pilot. If it's going to be close, they may query you as to how fast you can go, and for how long, so it's worth practicing this maneuver so you know how to answer that question.

If it's not going to work out, chances are they'll switch you to a different runway or have you go around and land behind the faster traffic. Oh no, you might get to fly some more!

BTW, funniest version of "Best Forward Speed" I've gotten was when I was flying the ILS in an Archer with a 30-knot headwind. "41E, pedal as fast as you can, contact tower!"

2.) Was I supposed to report the speed I was comfortable with and then fly that speed?

Not unless they specifically asked you to.

3.) Is there a distance from the airport where this directive no longer matters (eg. 2 miles)?

Not really. They're trying to get you in before someone who's a lot faster than you, so the faster you can go, and the longer you can go before you slow down, the more likely you'll get in first.

4.) Is there also a "Best Forward Speed"? If so how is it different?

That's how I usually hear them say it, but someone else said it isn't in the 7110.65 so they may be just making it up on the fly.

5.) For something slower like us GA planes, what is a good distance to start slowing down and still meet their needs?

As close in as you can safely manage.

I ran into this exact same situation early in my flying career, also in a 182 (though at a class C airport). After the first time, I started practicing to see what the plane and I were capable of. I found that I could follow the ILS glideslope or the VASI (so 3-degree-ish approach) at cruise power and 135-140 knots down to 300 feet AGL (so a bit under a mile out) and then pull the power to idle, hit full flaps at the white arc, and arrive over the numbers right on speed and touch down normally. But, this does take some practice - So go to that delta and practice it until you've got it down! It's one of the more handy things to have in your bag of tricks.

6.) Lets say you are unable (read: uncomfortable with this) should you just say 'Unable" or say something like "Unable, prefer a base leg to final"?

Absolutely. Or, at least tell them what you're comfortable with so that they can decide whether to vector you back around or keep you going in front of the fast mover.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Since I do not fly a Cessna normally; does anyone have a good list for @Sinistar to practice and add to his bag of tricks?

Most Cessnas are just slightly curved bricks, so pulling power slows 'em down quite well. And on the 182, especially the older models with 40-degree flaps, full flaps is a great speed brake once you get down to the white arc.

 

[Velocity173]

Think of the whole “best” thing this way. It has no meaning in reference to a magnitude of speed. Best is 1.3 x VSO for me. Now, “maximum” or “slowest” have relation to magnitude or level of speed. That’s why they’re used in the .65. Maximum isn’t Vne and slowest isn’t stall horn going off either. It’s what you can do safely.

Without any specific speed assignment, it’s just a precautionary measure on ATC for the unexpected. I used to use it to ensure the greater than required sep I already had, stayed that way. “Blade 11 if able, max forward speed until 3 miles on final. Traffic to follow, 2 F-16s with a slight overtake.” When you want exact separation mins, then you assign exact speeds.

Can’t say I ever used speed adjustments in the tower environment though, only in radar. Even in radar, efficient vectoring or altitude restrictions beat speed adjustments any day.

 

[denverpilot]

Think “best” is whatever the pilot is comfortable with.

If all you feel comfortable with is some slower number, by all means just let them know.

You may not be number one for landing anymore, which isn’t that big a deal in the Grand Scheme of Things(TM) as long as you aren’t running out of gas or you get as consumed by multiple vectors so much that you don’t maintain airspeed and spin and die, like the lady in the Cirrus a year or two ago.

As far as things someone can practice, yeah there’s a bunch of ways to do that. Any CFI could come out to the practice area somewhere away from the airport and simulate a decelerated approach in any airplane someone is flying and they can see how to do it without overspeeding anything in a safe environment then go try it at the airport either VMC or simulated IMC, depending on their goals and certificates.

A very general lesson plan would be just building blocks like anything. Start with transitioning from fast cruise all the way to slow flight with the proper configuration changes.

Now point the airplane downhill to start that process at say, 500 ft/min and do it again, seeing how the additional speed of the descent has to be managed.

Many people already have SOME skill in this regard, they did it to slow up for their Private checkride for slow flight, stalls, etc. And most Instrument pilots learned things like “gear down to go down” and learned to plan the approach speed to be within gear speed so they drop gear at the FAF or glideslope intercept or whatever their technique is for their type.

Just build on those.

The devil is in the details by type of aircraft after that general plan. Not too hard to come up with a plan to practice it, though.

It’s possible to fly a continuously decelerating approach visually or via instruments that’s stabilized and reasonable in most airplanes. It’s just knowing how much physical space a particular type will need to slow in a descent and how much power to pull etc etc etc.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Got that best speed request in my early days once at Vancouver BC and told the Canuck “We’re firewalled, Sir” which I could hear got a muffled laugh. Severe slipping at the last possible moments left and then right got us Yankees down and slowed quickly.

 

[EdFred]

Its on.

As a data point, I went out last night to make sure everything on the engine monitor was hunky dory in flight, and decided to see how late I could slow down. So even though the procedure is NA (found out it is due to a runway repaint/removal of displaced threshold) I set up on the GPS 30 LPV glide slope into 9D9. 155KIAS airspeed to 0.8 miles out. By the time I pulled power, and dirtied everything up (not everything, I didn't go prop full forward) I had to put some power back in to make the runway. Touchdown speed of about 70KIAS.

 

[steingar]

155KIAS airspeed to 0.8 miles out. By the time I pulled power, and dirtied everything up (not everything, I didn't go prop full forward) I had to put some power back in to make the runway. Touchdown speed of about 70KIAS.

Actually, we're not doing this. We're not pulling power from cruise to idle. Ain't happening in my bird. We're not using the prop as a speed brake, the engine isn't set up to accommodate it. Comanches may have laminar flow wings, but they aren't Mooneys. Comanches go fast because they have big engine out front. Mooneys go fast because they're efficient.

 

[EdFred]

Actually, we're not doing this. We're not pulling power from cruise to idle. Ain't happening in my bird. We're not using the prop as a speed brake, the engine isn't set up to accommodate it. Comanches may have laminar flow wings, but they aren't Mooneys. Comanches go fast because they have big engine out front. Mooneys go fast because they're efficient.

I understand you don't want to be shown up, and that's the real reason for backing out. Funny thing is, I told people you would find some lame excuse to weasel out.

 

[steingar]

I understand you don't want to be shown up, and that's the real reason for backing out. Funny thing is, I told people you would find some lame excuse to weasel out.

My excuse is not lame. You may not care about your engine, but I care about mine, so I'l follow the manufacturer's recommendations. One of my pals wound up with cracked rings due to shenanigans like this. You can show me up in someone else's Mooney if you like.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I understand you don't want to be shown up, and that's the real reason for backing out. Funny thing is, I told people you would find some lame excuse to weasel out.

Hey @steingar and @EdFred, how about I do it in my Mooney instead? I don't even care who wins, I just want to see one of you wearing the other's gear during football season next year. Any tiny amount of wear and tear on the engine from doing this once would be worth that.

 

[EdFred]

Whatever you need to tell yourself to convince everybody that the Mooney is an impossible plane to fly unless you have so much skill such as yourself to do so. Just like everything that you own is the best and nothing else can compare and everything you do is the best and nobody else can come close to doing it. We get it you don't want to admit somebody out there somewhere might actually have a better skill set than you especially a College Dropout from Ann Arbor.

 

[jordane93]

 

[steingar]

Whatever you need to tell yourself to convince everybody that the Mooney is an impossible plane to fly unless you have so much skill such as yourself to do so. Just like everything that you own is the best and nothing else can compare and everything you do is the best and nobody else can come close to doing it. We get it you don't want to admit somebody out there somewhere might actually have a better skill set than you especially a College Dropout from Ann Arbor.

Oh who knows, maybe I'll suck it up and do it. Mooneys are not impossible to fly. Mine does get busy on take-off, I've got to go heads down for the Johnson bar, get the flaps out and back the engine down all before I hit 105. Landing they can be ticklish, too fast and they float, too little energy and they bite. But hit one on speed and power and the aircraft twill reward you with a nice greased landing. I might even check and see if you're right on my next flight, I'd be very surprised to see it dump that much speed that fast, especially because I'm going to be at 600 or 700 feet on short final, and that altitude has to be lost as well. Mooneys can go down or slow down, but not both at the same time. The energy just sounds all wrong to me. Cruise is 160, landing is 75 over the numbers. Moreover, gear speed is 120 and flap speed is 105. By the way, all those numbers are in miles per hour. Doing that in one mile and loosing several hundred feet just doesn't sound doable. But if I find it is I'll certainly post up and eat my portion of crow. If you're right it's something everyone should know. Could help someone in a pinch.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You can show me up in someone else's Mooney if you like.

Well then, it seems we're in agreement, so let's set the parameters of the test. I'm curious as to how this would work for my plane anyway, but I'd also like to replicate the speeds that you guys have, within the limits of safety.

@EdFred, you mentioned 155 knots *indicated* on the approach, is that your speed at cruise power down low at approach altitudes? What's your Vlo, Vfe, normal (VFR) approach/landing speed, and Vs0?

@steingar, what is your cruise speed, Vlo, Vfe, normal approach/landing speed, and Vs0?

FWIW, I normally cruise at 170 KTAS, but indicated depends a lot on altitude. In fact, at approach altitudes my cruise speed would likely be down around 165 or maybe even a little less in true airspeed terms, and probably in the 155-160 KIAS range as well. My Vlo(extend) is 140 KIAS, Vfe is 110 KIAS, normal approach speed is 80 KIAS and Vs0 is 59 KCAS.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I might even check and see if you're right on my next flight, I'd be very surprised to see it dump that much speed that fast, especially because I'm going to be at 600 or 700 feet on short final, and that altitude has to be lost as well.

Why would you be so high? What do you consider to be "short final"?

 

[steingar]

Like I said, I might give this a try when I redeliver my Mooney to the avionics guys so they can fix all the stuff they bolluxed. Hopefully they get it right this time. So, if I'm getting this right on short final (1 mile) I should be at cruising speed (160 mph), I cut power, do whatever I can to slow the airplane down, put down the gear (my best speed brake) at 120, flaps are 105, and I'm supposed to be doing 75 over the numbers. I've no Go Pro or any of that nonsense (less evidence made means less to burn) but I will report my findings accurately.

My main thought is my vintage Mooney has a much much smaller frontal area than Ed's Comanche. Hence Ed's aircraft maybe able to do something the Mooney simply can't. Never heard of a Comanche with speed brakes, lots of Mooneys have them.

Why would you be so high? What do you consider to be "short final"?

A mile sounds about right, though I've never measured. But I don't start descending until I turn base, and then final. Pattern altitude is 1000 feet, and I can't imagine loosing more than a few hundred turning base to final. Moreover, I will be high enough that a lost engine will allow me to get to the runway.

 

[easik]

1.) Best forward speed is simply asking you to expedite. Perhaps there's traffic behind you or in close proximity that needs to land as well.
2.) No, I believe you just comply in this situation (except if complying jeopardizes your safety)
3.) I don't think there's a set distance for the rule. But I could be wrong.
4.) This will vary from plane to plane. Best forward speed for me is simply 'wait a little longer before slowing down'
5.) Don't know
6.) Yes. You're pilot in command and you can choose a different available/safe option.