Help a sissy pilot with some tips for a trip

WannFly

WannFly

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Read the subject line again, in case you have forgotten, I am sissy. now that's out of the way read on and by the way, i will have ample time in my hands and i dont have to go to Cody or Casper, or anywhere as a matter of fact. this is something i want to, there is no have to.

background: VFR only, have started IFR but thats taking ages to finish due to schedule, familiar with GPS and ILS approaches, i can use them if push comes to shove, wont be picture perfect, but workable in an emergency. about 240 hrs with 60 XC hrs (more than 50 NM distance), so far stayed in ND, SD and MN.

I am planning a fall trip (mid Oct) to Cody and Casper and wanted to get some ideas for the route.

First option:
KFAR > KBIS > KMLS > KBIL while i can do Bismark to Billings at one go, really dont want to.
next day KBIL to KCOD - pretty much follow the Yellowstone river and the road, OR get on V85

Anyone done the KBIL - KCOD route? any pointers?

next day or so fly to Casper. follow V85 to BOY and then own nav to Casper. from what i can gather, the elevation is about 6k with bigger ranges, towers going up to 8k+ on all sides

i plan to stay at least 3k-4k AGL where possible.


Second Route:

KFAR > KRAP - stay there
next day go straight to Casper and basically reverse the route. hopefully in this route will not have much headwinds and i can catch tailwind while coming back. HOPE.

Q: should i worry about rotors and other hazards typical to mountain flying? i have no formal mountain flying training or experience other than one when i had hired an ATP to fly me from WA to ND. i didnt take part in flight planning (long story and not topic at hand), but did fly over cascades and in various valleys between Coeur d'Alene and Billings.

thoughts?
 
You sound a lot like me. Very cautious and conservative. Good luck. I’ll let the experts chime in.
 
Bump.

A few years ago my dad and I drove over the mountains of the Bighorn national forest going to Yellowstone. I recall the terrain between the Bighorn and Shoshone (your proposed route) being rather flat and western arid like.

It seems like these two mountain ranges being a minimum of 80 miles apart and more going south would be enough distance that a flatlander could safely fly it without mountain training (altitude leaning excepted of course).

Is this right? Are these mountains far enough apart to not matter w/r to mountain wx specifics???

Highlanders...please share wisdom :)
 
I flew from KRAP to KCOD a few years ago, on vacation with my wife and two friends in a 172. We stopped somewhere for fuel. Going over the Badlands made me glad we weren't driving, they look realy bad, and lasged quite a time below us.

Yankton, SD. Not sure if that stop was before or after KRAP. Nice place, two runways, great FBO.

Anyway, my route was to the Billinvs VOR (BIL), the south down the valley to Cody. The visibility there made it hard for me to find the airport, i was looking nenar the edge of visibility when 10-12 miles out like I'm used to doing. And there was a Cessna leaving the field to the east that I just couldn't see until on his third call he said "Cessna, er Citation XXX," and I spotted him clearing the mountains to the east.

COD is a great field, no trouble getting in and out. But it was strange, coming over from WV--there we were at 8500 msl and looking up at mountains on both sides . . . . Absolutely beautiful.

We left the same way, up to the VOR to clear the mountains (Sawtooth Range?) then down to Gillette for a quick fuel stop so we could be an approaching storm from the NW.

Just be patient with the weather. We made one unscheduled stop going each way, but they were fun.
 
WannFly said:
...familiar with GPS and ILS approaches, i can use them if push comes to shove, wont be picture perfect, but workable in an emergency.
Click to expand...

Say WHAT?? So youre VFR only, but you've wandered into IMC so far that youre shooting an approach!?? You might want to re-think the trip. Youre gonna die.
 
WannFly said:
... familiar with GPS and ILS approaches, i can use them if push comes to shove, wont be picture perfect, but workable in an emergency...
Click to expand...

If you think this is an option as a VFR only pilot, you're not a sissy! Quite the opposite, actually.

Edit: JCranford beat me to it.
 
JCranford said:
Say WHAT?? So youre VFR only, but you've wandered into IMC so far that youre shooting an approach!?? You might want to re-think the trip. Youre gonna die.
Click to expand...

You are so on pointJC. Nothing surprises me anymore these days. I play by the rules, as most of us do, but let me tell you, many pilots out there don’t. I visited a friend in FL a many years ago, we once had our planes next to each other when based in NY. Most of the pilot owners in his row of hangers lost their medicals years ago. Some fly now with non US licenses and some, well, fly without any. What a nightmare, I couldn’t believe it!

I’m instrument rated, but not current. I’d never think of filing to get on top or out of an airport unless I get current again. If I got stuck, (which I seriously doubt, VFR only these days) I’d fess up and follow ATC’s instructions. Granted, I still practice, so in theory I’m probably in a much better position to survive an encounter with IMC, than some instrument student or self taught instrument rating wannabe.

I’m not holier than thou, but when those who don’t follow the rules screw up, we are the ones that take the hit, in the press and in the pocketbook. Not to mention the toll taken on the families.

Rant over...
 
wow! hold on. I never said I will intentionally get into IMC or on top and fly an approach to get out of it. may be should have clarified, I can use the approach plates or ask for a practice approach in a towered field and stay out of terrains as a backup.
 
WannFly said:
... i can use them if push comes to shove, wont be picture perfect, but workable in an emergency....
Click to expand...

WannFly said:
wow! hold on. I never said I will intentionally get into IMC or on top and fly an approach to get out of it. may be should have clarified, I can use the approach plates or ask for a practice approach in a towered field and stay out of terrains as a backup.
Click to expand...

What kind of emergency do you see yourself getting into, that you would need to fly the approach?

When I was VFR only, I don't think I considered flying the approach as an option, even right before my IR checkride...maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there are always better options to the VFR pilot.
 
tawood said:
What kind of emergency do you see yourself getting into, that you would need to fly the approach?

When I was VFR only, I don't think I considered flying the approach as an option, even right before my IR checkride...maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there are always better options to the VFR pilot.
Click to expand...

while no VFR pilot plans on getting in IMC, it happens, if that happens, I can and will use my limited approach flying skills instead of praying. not saying I will play with dodgy weather. my personal minimums are 6k ceiling and 6 SM vis, else I am not flying.

now can we go back to the question at hand? pretty pls?
 
WannFly said:
while no VFR pilot plans on getting in IMC, it happens, if that happens, I can and will use my limited approach flying skills instead of praying. not saying I will play with dodgy weather. my personal minimums are 6k ceiling and 6 SM vis, else I am not flying.
Click to expand...
With those minimums the odds of using an approach in an emergency is about the same as the entire flight crew eating fish and the flight attendant asking the cabin "is anybody here a pilot"?
 
WannFly said:
now can we go back to the question at hand? pretty pls?
Click to expand...


LOL, sure. I cant help with the route, but the trip sounds plenty cool. Sounds like my Oregon trip a few weeks ago. I made most of it VFR, but there were a couple legs I filed and flew IMC. I logged a little over an hour actual.
 
Sinistar said:
Bump.

A few years ago my dad and I drove over the mountains of the Bighorn national forest going to Yellowstone. I recall the terrain between the Bighorn and Shoshone (your proposed route) being rather flat and western arid like.

It seems like these two mountain ranges being a minimum of 80 miles apart and more going south would be enough distance that a flatlander could safely fly it without mountain training (altitude leaning excepted of course).

Is this right? Are these mountains far enough apart to not matter w/r to mountain wx specifics???

Highlanders...please share wisdom :)
Click to expand...

I remember my drive from Miles City to Cody as well. from what I can remember, there are plenty open lands and ranches along the way and the big mountains seems to be far far away. no sure if I have to worry about mountain waves or not.. that's what I am trying to figure out
 
There was some turbulence in WY, i remember it was forecast. We also dropped off radar dor ~30 nm. Being low time, it was a fun and educational trip, more than 1300 nm each way.

Have fun, take lots of pictures and fly safe!
 
Should be a fun flight. Couple tips.
1.Typical summer density altitudes out here are over 10,000ft, don't know your plane type but I always have to choose between fuel and passengers.
2. The wind seems to never stop, there will be turbulence.
3. Highly recommend filing a flight plan, radar coverage is spotty at your elevation.
4. Bring a gallon of water. Wy is incredibly sparse and there is no one to help you but yourself if you make an off field landing.
 
Overly cautious, very conservative, afraidy cat, or even paranoid. Fine.

Sissy?? Are you flying while only wearing a pink frilly thong??
 
Nothing sounds that bad, just keep a eye on weather, don’t second guess your gut feelings, and have fun! :)
 
Honestly man you need to go through an extensive mountain course before you even fly over a 100ft+ hill. Preferably the course should be taught by denver
 
No help with the locations or course or anything like that, but just think of it as another airport that's further away, shouldn't really be any more than that in your head. A little anxiety is fine, you are pretty much where I am on this flying stuff. Have fun, don't run out of gas.
 
Kritchlow said:
Overly cautious, very conservative, afraidy cat, or even paranoid. Fine.

Sissy?? Are you flying while only wearing a pink frilly thong??
Click to expand...

Reading your post, imagining myself wearing that and can’t stop giggling.... man it’s an ugly sight
 
will44s said:
Should be a fun flight. Couple tips.
1.Typical summer density altitudes out here are over 10,000ft, don't know your plane type but I always have to choose between fuel and passengers.
2. The wind seems to never stop, there will be turbulence.
3. Highly recommend filing a flight plan, radar coverage is spotty at your elevation.
4. Bring a gallon of water. Wy is incredibly sparse and there is no one to help you but yourself if you make an off field landing.
Click to expand...

Thanks. i will be flying 180 HP Piper Archer, and i will be alone. i am hoping by mid Oct the it will cool own a bit
 
Kritchlow said:
Overly cautious, very conservative, afraidy cat, or even paranoid. Fine.

Sissy?? Are you flying while only wearing a pink frilly thong??
Click to expand...
If yes, I recommend you send a selfie to GAOPA. You are a centerfold candidate for sure!
 
Been flying for 48 years and been a sissy the whole time, all the way across the country several times, Oshkosh, Alaska and back and into Mexico. Just go out there and do it at your own pace, you’ll be fine.
 
I flew KRAP to KCOD and on to KDIJ last year in my Dakota. Cody is a bit hard to spot as I recall, but it's a huge runway and they have a nice coffee shop that does sandwiches too.
 
WannFly said:
Thanks. i will be flying 180 HP Piper Archer, and i will be alone. i am hoping by mid Oct the it will cool own a bit
Click to expand...

You'll do fine. I had 180 hp over Labor Day, with 2 people and luggage for a week. COD has a nice, long runway. :p.

Expect some snow on the peaks in October; we had rain in Cody, byt when we drove into Yellowstone the next day, there was fresh snow on the ground. Dress warm.
 
Pay heed to the winds, aloft and surface. The usual advice of morning flights helps a bunch. Don’t get sucked into a previously planned course of action. If your destination has winds you’re uncomfortable with, go to a more forgiving airport.

Of course the same applies to IMC or marginal WX conditions.
 
KFAR-KHEI is 250nm over flat terrain. KHEI to KCOD by way of the LTTLE fix and then along the Bighorn River to Bighorn Lake before heading west (just to avoid crossing the Bighorn Mountains) is 300nm over mostly flat terrain with some scenery as you get to the Bighorn River part of the trip.

KCOD-KCPR direct takes you 150nm over some higher but not extreme terrain. Fly at 11,500 and you'll clear it all by 2,000 feet or more.

KCPR-KRAP is 160nm, mostly flat other than the Black Hills. You'll be almost directly over Mt Rushmore. Watch for helicopters.

KRAP-KFAR is 315nm over flat terrain.

KCOD is at 5100 feet and has an 8200ft runway, which is that long because of how high the density altitude gets when it's hot. So go when it's not hot and you'll be fine. And remember, it doesn't matter what density altitude it is, fly your approach and land by indicated airspeed. As you know, true airspeed goes up for constant indicated airspeed as the density altitude goes up, so the ground will move faster but the runway is long to accommodate it. Don't let the ground rush scare you. Look to the end of that big runway. Also, with high density altitudes, landing is easier than taking off, so even if the temperatures go up you can land and then wait on the ground until the cool morning to take off again.

Your 180hp Archer will do just fine in these conditions. I have a 180hp Arrow (with the Hershey bar wing, a handicap compared to your Archer's tapered wing that counters my advantages in terms of a constant-speed propeller and retractable landing gear) and have flown in that area on hot days. My instrument cross-country lesson was one of them. The MEA of 12000 where we flew was right at my service ceiling of 15000 density altitude. The plane did fine. Go ahead and fill those tanks since you'll be solo and well under gross. Practice leaning on the ground and apply what you learn to the high country. It's just a longer pull back on the mixture knob but the same basic procedure.

Mountain flying consists of a few different things, few of which you will actually encounter. Weather, density altitude, and emergency landing sites are the only things I can think of that you need to worry about. Backcountry strip evaluation, extreme short-field landing techniques, terrain flying as in below the peaks and in narrow canyons, ridge crossings...those are all things you can avoid needing to know by planning a route that doesn't involve them.
 
iamtheari said:
KFAR-KHEI is 250nm over flat terrain. KHEI to KCOD by way of the LTTLE fix and then along the Bighorn River to Bighorn Lake before heading west (just to avoid crossing the Bighorn Mountains) is 300nm over mostly flat terrain with some scenery as you get to the Bighorn River part of the trip.

KCOD-KCPR direct takes you 150nm over some higher but not extreme terrain. Fly at 11,500 and you'll clear it all by 2,000 feet or more.

KCPR-KRAP is 160nm, mostly flat other than the Black Hills. You'll be almost directly over Mt Rushmore. Watch for helicopters.

KRAP-KFAR is 315nm over flat terrain.

KCOD is at 5100 feet and has an 8200ft runway, which is that long because of how high the density altitude gets when it's hot. So go when it's not hot and you'll be fine. And remember, it doesn't matter what density altitude it is, fly your approach and land by indicated airspeed. As you know, true airspeed goes up for constant indicated airspeed as the density altitude goes up, so the ground will move faster but the runway is long to accommodate it. Don't let the ground rush scare you. Look to the end of that big runway. Also, with high density altitudes, landing is easier than taking off, so even if the temperatures go up you can land and then wait on the ground until the cool morning to take off again.

Your 180hp Archer will do just fine in these conditions. I have a 180hp Arrow (with the Hershey bar wing, a handicap compared to your Archer's tapered wing that counters my advantages in terms of a constant-speed propeller and retractable landing gear) and have flown in that area on hot days. My instrument cross-country lesson was one of them. The MEA of 12000 where we flew was right at my service ceiling of 15000 density altitude. The plane did fine. Go ahead and fill those tanks since you'll be solo and well under gross. Practice leaning on the ground and apply what you learn to the high country. It's just a longer pull back on the mixture knob but the same basic procedure.

Mountain flying consists of a few different things, few of which you will actually encounter. Weather, density altitude, and emergency landing sites are the only things I can think of that you need to worry about. Backcountry strip evaluation, extreme short-field landing techniques, terrain flying as in below the peaks and in narrow canyons, ridge crossings...those are all things you can avoid needing to know by planning a route that doesn't involve them.
Click to expand...


thank you. VERY helpful.

the purpose of this trip is to fly and get out of my comfort zone of flat lands, destination is least of my worries. so if i dont get to reach Cody due WX, so be it and i will have 8 days in my hand to complete this trip and account for WX. Mountain flying is exactly what i am trying to avoid without formal training, so not getting into ridges and canyons... even though i really want to, well may be after a formal training.

if end up going to KBIL (i might stay there the first night and go via KBIS KMLS) >> i would take your route anyday if i am going from KFAR to KCOD if destination is my priority
This is what i am thinking of my route:

KBIL BIL COD KCOD at 8500, keeps me out of everything

from there

KCOD NICQE BOY HIKOX KCPR at 11500

again keeps me out of everything and no flying close to the big rocks

then direct to KRAP ... or might go to KAPA depending on time in hand, wx etc. thanks again.
 
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One thing to remember if you are planning an arrival at high DA your go around performance will be affected.
If you are planning to arrive during a time that you would not depart due to DA keep that in mind during the approach regarding go around performance.

Always have an out
 
WannFly said:
thank you. VERY helpful.

the purpose of this trip is to fly and get out of my comfort zone of flat lands, destination is least of my worries. so if i dont get to reach Cody due WX, so be it and i will have 8 days in my hand to complete this trip and account for WX. Mountain flying is exactly what i am trying to avoid without formal training, so not getting into ridges and canyons... even though i really want to, well may be after a formal training.

if end up going to KBIL (i might stay there the first night and go via KBIS KMIL) >> i would take your route anyday if i am going from KFAR to KCOD if destination is my priority
This is what i am thinking of my route:

KBIL BIL COD KCOD at 8500, keeps me out of everything

from there

KCOD NICQE BOY HIKOX KCPR at 11500

again keeps me out of everything and no flying close to the big rocks

then direct to KRAP ... or might go to KAPA depending on time in hand, wx etc. thanks again.
Click to expand...
What you are doing is something every pilot should do: Use the airplane to go on a long, pointless road trip where the destination is just an excuse to make the journey. My instrument cross-country lesson referred to above was the moment when I realized that I really could take my little airplane and go far, far away without it being a major production. Now I consider my plane for every trip I take. I don't always fly myself, but I always consider it. I am going to Virginia for Labor Day and would fly my own plane there if I didn't get to ferry a different airplane home from Iowa as part of the trip.

Tip on Billings: Laurel (6S8) is a nice little airport, worth considering instead of KBIL. I did a Pilots-n-Paws pickup there once. But the building apparently had plumbing issues as the only way to flush the toilet was to borrow the mop bucket, fill it up from a spigot outside, then dump it in. Most likely this has been fixed in the year since it occurred. They also had runway construction going on at the time so it's not like it's an abandoned Podunk airport.

The Billings airport itself is also nice. It's the only Class C I have been into and I went IFR so I can't say how they handle VFR arrivals, but approach was friendly, tower was friendly, and the FBO (Edwards) was nice. Other than the radar service being mandatory unlike with a TRSA, I would compare Billings with Fargo as far as ATC friendliness and procedures go. One trick is that the airport has parallel runways and a complex layout, plus it's on top of the rimrock, high above downtown. It's pretty cool but you need to be aware that it's a bit of an aircraft carrier situation (not nearly as bad as Sedona, of course).

You may even consider Red Lodge (KRED). It's still not quite a mountain airport. And Red Lodge is a cool little town, any time of year.
 
iamtheari said:
...Fly at 11,500 and you'll clear it all by 2,000 feet or more.
...
Click to expand...

Flying over them? Meh, might as well get a airline ticket ;)

148_BB074-1_F78-4_C13-_B1_E2-3528_E3_A1218_C.jpg
 
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James331 said:
Flying over them? Meh, might as well get a airline ticket ;)

148_BB074-1_F78-4_C13-_B1_E2-3528_E3_A1218_C.jpg
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My theory is that clearing terrain by 2,000 feet (basically what is required for IFR) doesn't even qualify as mountain flying, and is therefore just regular flying. Flying the terrain is certainly more interesting, but requires skills that the OP has mentioned a few times in the past wanting specific training on before attempting. Can't blame him for that.

P.S. Awesome picture...at the risk of thread creep, where is that?
 
James331 said:
Flying over them? Meh, might as well get a airline ticket ;)

148_BB074-1_F78-4_C13-_B1_E2-3528_E3_A1218_C.jpg
Click to expand...
as much as i would love to fly low over the river... i will save it for another day, when i have more exp. man that looks gorgeous
 
iamtheari said:
My theory is that clearing terrain by 2,000 feet (basically what is required for IFR) doesn't even qualify as mountain flying, and is therefore just regular flying. Flying the terrain is certainly more interesting, but requires skills that the OP has mentioned a few times in the past wanting specific training on before attempting. Can't blame him for that.

P.S. Awesome picture...at the risk of thread creep, where is that?
Click to expand...

BC
 
iamtheari said:
What you are doing is something every pilot should do: Use the airplane to go on a long, pointless road trip where the destination is just an excuse to make the journey. My instrument cross-country lesson referred to above was the moment when I realized that I really could take my little airplane and go far, far away without it being a major production. Now I consider my plane for every trip I take. I don't always fly myself, but I always consider it. I am going to Virginia for Labor Day and would fly my own plane there if I didn't get to ferry a different airplane home from Iowa as part of the trip.

Tip on Billings: Laurel (6S8) is a nice little airport, worth considering instead of KBIL. I did a Pilots-n-Paws pickup there once. But the building apparently had plumbing issues as the only way to flush the toilet was to borrow the mop bucket, fill it up from a spigot outside, then dump it in. Most likely this has been fixed in the year since it occurred. They also had runway construction going on at the time so it's not like it's an abandoned Podunk airport.

The Billings airport itself is also nice. It's the only Class C I have been into and I went IFR so I can't say how they handle VFR arrivals, but approach was friendly, tower was friendly, and the FBO (Edwards) was nice. Other than the radar service being mandatory unlike with a TRSA, I would compare Billings with Fargo as far as ATC friendliness and procedures go. One trick is that the airport has parallel runways and a complex layout, plus it's on top of the rimrock, high above downtown. It's pretty cool but you need to be aware that it's a bit of an aircraft carrier situation (not nearly as bad as Sedona, of course).

You may even consider Red Lodge (KRED). It's still not quite a mountain airport. And Red Lodge is a cool little town, any time of year.
Click to expand...

Red Lodge is interesting suggestion. if the winds are right, i might attempt it. will see.

landed in Billings before on VFR (not as PIC), very friendly approach. i am always on radar here so shouldn't be too much diff there. took the crew car for a nice burger place. i remember the approach to their longer of the parallels, turning base to final what you see upfront is a wall of rock!! you have to look up to see the runway (OR i was super low). my first "Line up and Wait" was at KBIL. i was flying from WA to KFAR, getting my plane here and one of the stops was KBIL, after which we flew to KBIS directly (and hence i would try not to do that this time around), at night with no radar coverage, i was hoping he would follow the road... but nopes, we cut straight thru the MOA.
 
@WannFly

Rest easy, there's nothing particularly challenging about your trip. Should be a good time, but probably a bit smokey! Just stay away from T-storms and watch the density altitude if you aren't used to it. Both of those take care of themselves if you fly in the early morning... Have fun!
 
idahoflier said:
@WannFly

Rest easy, there's nothing particularly challenging about your trip. Should be a good time, but probably a bit smokey! Just stay away from T-storms and watch the density altitude if you aren't used to it. Both of those take care of themselves if you fly in the early morning... Have fun!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the vote of confidence. being a flat-lander, anything above 3k is fairly high :confused::confused:. and i chose mid Oct to avoid the high DA and thunderstorms.. but might get into snow
 
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