Helicopter ATC question

denverpilot

denverpilot

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DenverPilot
Why do the controllers have to say, "Departing from the ramp will be at your own risk" to helicopters?

Departing from anything on Terra Firma is at the pilot's own risk.

If the helicopter departs from the runway, it's not like the controller is going to be magically whisked into the cockpit and injured when the thing falls from the sky.

This phraseology seems to be a good example of useless nannyism. A way to say "we don't have the authority to clear you to depart frm there but we did anyway and it'll sound better on the news on the accident tapes if we use this useless air-time consuming phrase".

Why not just shorten it to DFTRWBAYOW. It's as useless as ATITPPA. ;) :stirpot:
 
denverpilot said:
Why do the controllers have to say, "Departing from the ramp will be at your own risk" to helicopters?
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They can't see you like they can an airplane on the runway so they can't really give you traffic or sequence you. I always figured that was the reason, anyway.
 
That is one good reason. Another, IMO is a liability thing. Ramps aren't technically surfaces from which takeoffs are conducted. I would suspect it might be tower's warning that any damage inflicted to other aircraft will be the responsibility of the helicopter pilot.
 
It is CYA. There are places on the ramp where helicopters depart from everyday and everyone knows there are no wires and it is safe and normal(for that airport.) On the other hand ATC will approve just about anything you ask for when you are flying a helicopter so having a little CYA in there seems OK. One of these days, somewhere, a helicopter is going to ask for a present position departure, from a spot on the airport they don't normally leave from, and go straight into wires. Happens, so along with the freedom to get what you ask for you also get a little CYA.
 
They say the same thing if you tell them you want to depart from a closed airport.
 
I know our ATC doesn't say anything like that. When we take off and tell them where we want to go, they give us direction. Very simple.
 
I'm not sure it materially adds to safety, and it certainly takes a lot of air time, which one could argue materially detracts from other's safety.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is one good reason. Another, IMO is a liability thing. Ramps aren't technically surfaces from which takeoffs are conducted. I would suspect it might be tower's warning that any damage inflicted to other aircraft will be the responsibility of the helicopter pilot.
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True.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Chances are your company has a LOA (Letter of Agreement) with ATC.
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We are a county run fire rescue helicopter and it is a county run airport. I don't know if that means anything regarding the LOA. I will ask when I work on Friday. Although, can I assume the ATC's are federal?
 
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Seems like I've been given similar taxi instructions in an airplane but I can't recall where. "Area not visible from the tower, taxi at your own risk".
 
Yeah it may be an APA thing. Sight lines from the tower are awful/non-existent east of Taxiway Alpha.

Seems like something you'd just put permanently in the A/FD and stop wasting the airtime. Dunno.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah it may be an APA thing. Sight lines from the tower are awful/non-existent east of Taxiway Alpha.
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I didn't mean that I was somewhere on the ramp at APA. I know I was at some other airport but I can't recall where because it was also a long time ago.

Here is more info on helicopter takeoffs.

CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF.
b. If takeoff is requested from non−movement areas, an area not authorized for helicopter use, or an area off the airport, and, in your judgment, the operation appears to be reasonable, use the following phraseology instead of the takeoff clearance in subpara a.
PHRASEOLOGY−
DEPARTURE FROM (requested location) WILL BE AT YOUR OWN RISK (additional instructions, as necessary). USE CAUTION (if applicable).
c. Unless agreed to by the pilot, do not issue downwind takeoffs if the tailwind exceeds 5 knots.
NOTE−
A pilot request to takeoff from a given point in a given direction constitutes agreement.
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From page 3-11-2

http://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/atc.pdf
 
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Seems like the phraseology could be shortened to "Own risk, (location), cleared to...". All the extra verbiage seems tailor-made for the accident tape being published. Then add verbiage to the AIM as to what "own risk" means.
 
Haha. Another thought, since we're enamored with their ways of doing things these days...

What Would ICAO Do?

(I need a WWID number sticker now. Could be used for this phrase or just "What Would I Do?")

;)
 
flyingron said:
They say the same thing if you tell them you want to depart from a closed airport.
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Or use a wide taxiway for landing, it's pointed into the wind instead of getting 70 degree cross at 30+ knots.
 
flyingron said:
They say the same thing if you tell them you want to depart from a closed airport.
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...or a taxiway. Controllers will let you do pretty much anything if you assume the risk.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
...or a taxiway. Controllers will let you do pretty much anything if you assume the risk.

Bob Gardner
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Which is silly, since the FARs are very clear that everything is at the pilot's risk. Not to mention the obvious fact that it is the pilot sitting in the machine not the controller.

I had never assumed that ATC assumed any of the risk for any action I take in an airplane. I just assumed they are there provide the most expeditious traffic flow. It is always the pilot's responsibility to manage all risks.
 
A lot of you are reading way too much into this. As Mari, Greg, and R&W pointed out, it's a liability issue and an issue of other aircraft that may be in the vicinity.

When you depart a runway, ATC is responsible for not clearing another airplane to land on top of you or on the opposite runway. Yes, you as the pilot assume risk, but you do expect to not have to perform an evasive maneuver at V1 due to opposite direction landing traffic; that is the responsibility assumed by ATC. When we fling wingers depart a taxiway or ramp area, they often do not suspend runway operations and we are departing an area where there are other aircraft parked and possibly moving. These areas may also not be visible from the tower. WE now assume that responsibility.

As far as extra verbage, yes, probably. We know better than to hover over a little airplane or turn across an active runway after takeoff - at least most of us do. However, it's in the P/C Glossary so it's what they are gonna say.
 
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