Heart of Texas Aircraft Engines, anybody ever use them?

Morne

Morne

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Morne
http://heartoftexasaircraftengines.com/NO_SURPRISE_PRICING.html

While wondering about the cost to overhaul an engine I stumbled across this site. They certainly have nice pricing, and seem to say that their price won't creep upwards like some shops, but I am always suspicious of, "Too good to be true."

Anybody ever use them before?
 
I'll PM you the contact info for the President of the Texas Pilot's Association. It's possible he might have some data on them.
 
It's been a while and I don't remember the details, but my impression is/was favorable. Brady isn't all that far away, and somebody from that part of TX was involved with the shop for some engine work. Sorry I can't provide a better report.



Morne said:
http://heartoftexasaircraftengines.com/NO_SURPRISE_PRICING.html

While wondering about the cost to overhaul an engine I stumbled across this site. They certainly have nice pricing, and seem to say that their price won't creep upwards like some shops, but I am always suspicious of, "Too good to be true."

Anybody ever use them before?
Click to expand...
 
Bruce is known to build a good engine, I don't think he'll throw away parts to run the price up nor do I think he'll put a bad part back in to keep the price down.

If you go with an overhaul like this (i.e. not one where they're just going to replace everything), be sure you know what you're getting. There are pluses and minuses.
 
My brother-in-law is a 777 pilot for American Airlines stationed in Dallas. He knows the owner and recommended them to overhaul my Cherokee. I don't think he would steer me wrong. I sure like their prices.
 
I believe Michael Caban had his 470s done by them, they run strong and long...
 
There is a long thread on beechtalk that would be worth reading...
 
My heart sank when I saw that price list. Our club just paid more, a lot more, for a Penn Yan overhaul of an IO360. And Penn took almost six months! And Brady is just up the road.
 
You usually get what you pay for -seldom more. Most of the "cheap" shops base price is less than we pay for parts and vendor services. I wonder how they do that?????? Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines
 
They use certified parts.
They didn't say they use New certified parts.
So if your cam is shot, they'll grab a serviceable used unit, and put it in your engine. Heck fire, if yours was servicable it's still "used".
 
charlie said:
You usually get what you pay for -seldom more. Most of the "cheap" shops base price is less than we pay for parts and vendor services. I wonder how they do that?????? Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines
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This is his breakdown of the price of an overhaul:

cylinders $6,500.00
steel items $1,750.00
oil cooler $245.00
case $1,500.00
assembly parts $2,000.00
labor $2,000.00
on top of that is the round trip freight on the engine of $600.00.


What I don't see in there are minor items like shop overhead, insurance and a reserve to account for warranty items.

The dispute in the previously mentioned beechtalk thread included an issue relating to the shops ability to stick to the quoted price.
 
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charlie said:
You usually get what you pay for -seldom more. Most of the "cheap" shops base price is less than we pay for parts and vendor services. I wonder how they do that?????? Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines
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Charlie,

I started this thread precisely because I was suspicious of low price. By all accounts your shop is very highly regarded. May I inquire what a Continental IO-360 overhaul would run?
 
I'm in need of an engine and when I saw this thread I got interested. This guy is close to me and his "no surprise price" listed is only $13,000.

I asked for a quote and gave him the particulars I have given several other rebuilders.

He returned a quote of $17,995. This is still lower than anyone else but is it the right thing to do? There are several question marks I am having about doing business with them.
 
Our club just paid Penn Yan $25,560 overhaul our Lycoming IO-360. That included shipping both ways to and from Texas, and new factory cylinders. It took almost six months, but we didn't risk a core charge by having them overhaul the engine we sent them.
 
You got a deal from Penn. I have an I0-360 as well and their quote to me was $28,340 !!!
 
Morne said:
Charlie,

I started this thread precisely because I was suspicious of low price. By all accounts your shop is very highly regarded. May I inquire what a Continental IO-360 overhaul would run?
Click to expand...

I priced a continental IO-360 overhaul recently. Trying to ballpark operating costs for a globe super swift.

Most of them have a crank that must be replaced with an upgraded one. Therefore the most economical way is actually the continental factory trade in thing. $32k
 
JimNtexas said:
Our club just paid Penn Yan $25,560 overhaul our Lycoming IO-360. That included shipping both ways to and from Texas, and new factory cylinders. It took almost six months, but we didn't risk a core charge by having them overhaul the engine we sent them.
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The lycoming IO-360 is a different animal. LYC is 4cyl and continental is 6cyl
 
Quotes will vary even with the same shop depending on
- what type of cylinders are to be used (overhauled, new, factory, after-market)
- what accessories are present on your engine (down to amp rating of alternator)

What 'heart of texas' offers is no different from the field-overhaul that any mechanic with a 'P' rating can perform on your engine. Tear the thing down, send the parts to Divco or Aircraft specialties for NDT and THEN give you the expected final cost. You dont know what the overhaul will cost until the crank-shop has signed off on the part and until all of the cylinders have gone through their overhaul.

Some of the larger shops as well as the Lycoming factory will offer you fixed pricing on overhauls. As long as the engine was 'running when removed', you will get your core-charge, regardless of individual parts failing inspection. This gets priced into the overhauls and if your parts are 'good', you pay part of the new crank for a guy whose parts were bad. If you know your crank was 0.00001 from being discarded at the last overhaul, or your turbo exhaust already shows blisters, the 'expensive' overhaul from Matttituck (Conti factory overhaul facility) or Lycoming may actually be cheaper than what McWorter can do for you.
Where the field overhaul and garage-shops can save you money is on what they charge for their labor and how much insurance they buy to cover your claim against them if the freshly overhauled engine seizes on the second flight due to an incorrectly installed gasket.
 
Did you look at the site? He overhauls the IO-360 Grey box for $13,000, gold box for $14,000
 
What 'heart of texas' offers is no different from the field-overhaul that any mechanic with a 'P' rating can perform on your engine.
Click to expand...

That's what Penn-Yan did for us. They field overhauled the engine we sent them. They gave us a firm fixed price for this work. Even though they found some engine case damage we paid the quoted price.

The last overhaul we did several years ago was an engine exchange for a Warrior. We exchanged our runout engine for a 160 horsepower flavored engine. In that case we were hit with a core charge for something or other about the old engine that they didn't like.

It wasn't my call, but I was OK with overhauling our existing engine rather than exchanging it, simply because our engine had less than 4000 hours on it. My understanding is that an exchange engine can have any amount of hours on it.

I don't see why it took them so long to do the work.
 
My engine is being overhauled there now. Should be finished early next week according to Bruce when I dropped it off (estimated 6-8 weeks). Prices are lower, but do not include things required by TCM such as starter, fuel system, alternator, and magnetos, but the prices are still much lower than a FRM engine and, as other have said, they have good reviews so far. They post updates of their process on Facebook, which is cool to see the different steps in the dis/re-assembly process. I had to replace my crankshaft (bought a used, serviceable) due to it being a non-VAR crank and I am still sitting $8-10,000 under a Factory Reman (with the inspections on the above item o/h's included). I will try to remember to post an update once I pick it up and after I fly it a bit.
 
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I would NOT recommend this shop. Warranty is not as advertised on website (it is NOT transferable when you actually read the document), charged for shop supplies, watch taxes, billed twice for items, basic mechanic problems (damaged a brand new prop (claimed he didn't know of damage and said plane was ready for delivery) -he paid for repairs, but the time was ridiculous). List goes on and on (literally). VERY POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE - STAY AWAY. Still trying to get a transferable warranty. Will probably have to get an attorney and file a complaint with BBB.
 
Does anyone have ballpark costs to ship an engine, preferably something like fixed cost plus miles, round trip?
 
Ask the shop. You'll probably need to get a box from them anyway.

Frank said:
Does anyone have ballpark costs to ship an engine, preferably something like fixed cost plus miles, round trip?
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Ask the shop. You'll probably need to get a box from them anyway.
Click to expand...
I am still working on figuring out what I can afford. This seems like a good way to keep engine overhaul costs in check, but only if packing and shipping does not eat me alive.
 
Frank said:
Does anyone have ballpark costs to ship an engine, preferably something like fixed cost plus miles, round trip?
Click to expand...

If the distance between you two is less than a two day drive, I'd just buy one of those $200 Harbor Freight tiny trailers and make a vacation out of the trip.

Jim
 
climber451 said:
I would NOT recommend this shop. Warranty is not as advertised on website (it is NOT transferable when you actually read the document), charged for shop supplies, watch taxes, billed twice for items, basic mechanic problems (damaged a brand new prop (claimed he didn't know of damage and said plane was ready for delivery) -he paid for repairs, but the time was ridiculous). List goes on and on (literally). VERY POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE - STAY AWAY. Still trying to get a transferable warranty. Will probably have to get an attorney and file a complaint with BBB.
Click to expand...

I will second this opinion. I did have an overhaul and interior from Bruce in 2004. I was very disappointed and felt that he inflated the price greatly from what he promised. Lots of little tricks to inflate the cost. Just a couple of examples:
Complete interior redo- -for a flat rate quoted price. Then he adds $300+ for freight on the carpet needed ("it had to be dim shipped" dim = dimension). Them he added $500 for rewebbing the seatbelts!
Next, on a rebuild, most of my components were cert and reused- -he charges a flat $2k for labor (tax exempt) and assesses sales tax on the remaining $19K, another $1700 or so. Then he adds 'shop charges', which covers rags, cable ties, misc hardware, safety wire,cleaning solvents, and misc lubricants. I think this was another 3%. He said, go to any car mechanic shop, they do the same thing.

Also, when picking up the final product, as a condition of release, the customer has to pay the final bill in cash or pre wired funds to his acct. And he then serves notice that he has no business insurance of any kind and that customer agrees to told him harmless in the event of any problems. Bruce doesnt sign any of the log books or make any entries. He has the individual A&P mechanic in his employ sign off the log. Ditto on the interior- -had a different A&P gal sign that off.

Afterwards, I sent him mutiple letters re shortcoming, complete with pics. Couldnt even get the courtesy of a reply.

The motor did make it 80o hrs prior to needing a "real" overhaul.
Overall, a terrible experience.

Also, I would be happy to post proof positive pics of his shortcomings, or offer details to any who PM me.
 
climber451 said:
I would NOT recommend this shop. Warranty is not as advertised on website (it is NOT transferable when you actually read the document), charged for shop supplies, watch taxes, billed twice for items, basic mechanic problems (damaged a brand new prop (claimed he didn't know of damage and said plane was ready for delivery) -he paid for repairs, but the time was ridiculous). List goes on and on (literally). VERY POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE - STAY AWAY. Still trying to get a transferable warranty. Will probably have to get an attorney and file a complaint with BBB.
Click to expand...

nice first post. Troll.
 
thenderson said:
I will second this opinion. I did have an overhaul and interior from Bruce in 2004. I was very disappointed and felt that he inflated the price greatly from what he promised
....

Also, I would be happy to post proof positive pics of his shortcomings, or offer details to any who PM me.
Click to expand...

Another first post.
 
weilke said:
Have you taken him up on his offer to provide pix and details ?
Click to expand...

Looks to me like he had engine issues 9 years and 800 hours later and wants to blame the guy who last touched it (Couldn't be his own fault you know). And, AFAIK, Bruce is an engine only guy and doesn't do interiors. So the story isn't passing the smell test to begin with.

Why not start with evidence then moan about it?
 
bartmc said:
And, AFAIK, Bruce is an engine only guy and doesn't do interiors. So the story isn't passing the smell test to begin with.
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The loosely affiliated group known as 'Devine Air' that Bruce was part of did everything, paint interiors and engines. Now in his own show he only does engines as I understand it.
 
bartmc said:
Why not start with evidence then moan about it?
Click to expand...

Joins the group yesterday to make a negative post seconding another negative post made by another first time poster. That's pretty clear evidence of a troll. :D

A bad shop... you're going to see most of the issues in the first 100 hrs (infant mortality).. not 8 years and 800hrs later. All the complaints in the latest post focused on the interior other then this one, which was priceless:

"Bruce doesnt sign any of the log books or make any entries. He has the individual A&P mechanic in his employ sign off the log"

which of course is the law. The guy doing the work... and not the shop owner... signs the log book.
 
weilke said:
The loosely affiliated group known as 'Devine Air' that Bruce was part of did everything, paint interiors and engines. Now in his own show he only does engines as I understand it.
Click to expand...

Our club had a Warrior painted at Devine about 15 years ago. It was a very poor job in my opinon and we went elsewhere for the repaint.
 
JimNtexas said:
Our club had a Warrior painted at Devine about 15 years ago. It was a very poor job in my opinon and we went elsewhere for the repaint.
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You are obviously a troll ;-)
 
Jeff K said:
Joins the group yesterday to make a negative post seconding another negative post made by another first time poster. That's pretty clear evidence of a troll. :D

A bad shop... you're going to see most of the issues in the first 100 hrs (infant mortality).. not 8 years and 800hrs later. All the complaints in the latest post focused on the interior other then this one, which was priceless:

"Bruce doesnt sign any of the log books or make any entries. He has the individual A&P mechanic in his employ sign off the log"

which of course is the law. The guy doing the work... and not the shop owner... signs the log book.
Click to expand...

:confused: Can you show me that law? It's quite common in my experience for a CRS manager to sign off all the work done in the shop regardless which mechanic(s) did the work.
 
JimNtexas said:
Our club had a Warrior painted at Devine about 15 years ago. It was a very poor job in my opinon and we went elsewhere for the repaint.
Click to expand...

A buddy had his Chieftain P&I done at Devine, it was 'OK', but just 'OK' for the first year. Then stitching stared coming out and paint started peeling. It was the cheapest shop though...
 
Henning said:
It was the cheapest shop though...
Click to expand...

And looking at how people are willing to ship this guy their engines, that seems to be the only thing that counts.
 
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