Haze and maintaining VFR

2256Q said:
Just takes more bank. Guess I don't give it much thought due to my training and experience. Ha! You want a rapid descent? Roll inverted and pull back for a 70 degree dive.
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Now, Ray, I know you didn't do that in an F-111.
 
Ron Levy said:
Now, Ray, I know you didn't do that in an F-111.
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Little ol' me? Nah, I probably didn't do it more than a thousand times, or so. Actually, the 111 handled much like any smaller fighter. You just had to remember how much mass you were horsing around. For a plane that could come off at 120,000 GW, it was pretty nimble. :yes: We normally never flew them that heavy, but they could do it. We usually lifted at around 80,000 take off weight.
 
2256Q said:
Just takes more bank. Guess I don't give it much thought due to my training and experience. Ha! You want a rapid descent? Roll inverted and pull back for a 70 degree dive. That'll get you down rather quickly. Don't forget the speed brakes. How great it would be to still have a plane that would do that! :D Oh, well. Dream on, Ray. Anyway, on the cross-controlling, maintain the same AoA and airspeed, just roll more. You should be able to peg the ROC indicator and do so safely. That's assuming, of course, that you have no turkeys in back. ;)
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Well, on the Archer the VSI pegs at 2000 FPM, so I don't want to go any more rapidly than that and break it! :)

I'd like to try your inverted 70 degree dive, but that would probably violate the POH and FARs in more ways than I can count, and may result in a permanent suspension in my flying privileges by landing me 6 feet under. :yes:

Maybe one day you can show me how to do fun stuff like that... if we can find a plane that is capable! :)
 
dmccormack said:
He bought the airplane with an installed S-TEC AP (I forget the model -- it's in the Turn coordinator). It took some practice in severe VFR, but I actually like it -- it has a wing leveler, a turn right/left (no more than standard rate), a HDG function (flies to the Heading bug) and LO and HI Nav tracking.

It has altitude hold, but you need to get trimmed up and then set it. It shrieks if it gets out of trim.
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That'd be the S-TEC System 30. I finally figured out at OSH this year how their numbering system works...

The 20 and 30 are in the turn coordinator. 30 has altitude hold, 20 does not.

Likewise, the 40 and 50 are about the size of an instrument hole (though square) and the 50 has altitude hold while the 40 does not.

The 60-1 and 60-2 are similar to the 40 and 50 but can intercept nav courses as well as track them, and the 60-2 has altitude hold and can also be equipped with preselect.

Finally, the 55X fits in the radio stack and is the most sophisticated of the bunch. Altitude preselect, and will hold a heading and then intercept a track, intercept and track glideslope, etc.

At least that's how it was explained to me. ;)
 
Clark1961 said:
All this talk about AP's makes me wonder if folks have experience with the Century III as installed by Piper in the PA28? I believe they called it the Altimatic IIIc.

I've read the manual a couple times and things appear to be fairly straightforward until it gets into flying approaches. Does it really perform as advertised? I'm really looking forward to actually using it someday when the Dakota gets out of the hospital...
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I've never actually used one that was fully functional. Generally, they'll ground-check OK and will track the heading bug OK in the air, but the nav modes seem to always be broken.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Maybe one day you can show me how to do fun stuff like that... if we can find a plane that is capable! :)
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You cannot possibly imagine how very much I would enjoy showing you all those things. Problem is, I don't think the AF will loan me a fighter, and I sure can't afford to buy one. And maybe there is one I don't know about, but to my knowledge there's no civilian a/c that can do those things. Darn it! Now, if you've got a buddy with a P-51 or one of the serious WW II machines that would let us borrow it...Whoopeee! :yes:
 
Rob Schaffer said:
IF, there were no clouds forming nearby and it was just a hazy day, what are my options as a VFR private pilot?
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Theoretically, as long as you have the VFR minimums (3 miles, 500 below/1000 above/2000 lateral in most airspace) you're good to go. You are at least legal.

As you now know, flying in lower vis puts you in kind of a "hole" in the haze. You can see the ground straight down and blue sky straight up, but you can't necessarily see a good horizon. You really can't see other planes well - I had a flight where the vis was around 4-5 miles and I was on flight following, had traffic called twice that eventually passed within a mile of me and I never saw it.

Would I be able to climb to see if the haze reduced, almost to an "on top" condition, while having the vertical visibilty to still reference the ground? Coming back through the haze layer after being above it would be just like flying through it... so I guess this would be ok, as long as the haze layer didn't obstruct my vertical visibilty of the ground, causing a suito IMC condition?... :dunno:
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Sure - In fact, I generally do try to top the haze (generally that will take 6K-10K depending on the day, and the time of day). For a sub-50nm flight it might not be worth it to climb that high, but if you do get above the haze you'll also generally have cool, clear, smooth air and a beautiful flight. Often there will be some scattered clouds that are at the top of the haze layer, so that can give you some sort of clue how high you'll have to climb.
 
2256Q said:
You cannot possibly imagine how very much I would enjoy showing you all those things. Problem is, I don't think the AF will loan me a fighter, and I sure can't afford to buy one. And maybe there is one I don't know about, but to my knowledge there's no civilian a/c that can do those things. Darn it! Now, if you've got a buddy with a P-51 or one of the serious WW II machines that would let us borrow it...Whoopeee! :yes:
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Geez, I think it's the least that they could do for the tax dollars I give them! Ok, all my tax dollars combined over the course of my life so far probably would just about cover the joyride, so that counts, right? :yes:

I'll have to find a plane that's capable and take you up on that some day, Ray! :)
 
Thanks Kent for the recap. I was looking at a scattered layer here in the East today, AWOS said they were at 6500, but today was a clear and no haze day too.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Geez, I think it's the least that they could do for the tax dollars I give them! Ok, all my tax dollars combined over the course of my life so far probably would just about cover the joyride, so that counts, right? :yes:

I'll have to find a plane that's capable and take you up on that some day, Ray! :)
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That's a deal. In the meantime, unless somebody buys one of my books or the engine, if someone GAVE me an F-104, I couldn't afford the JP-4 to fill it up. SIGH!!!!! :(
 
2256Q said:
Little ol' me? Nah, I probably didn't do it more than a thousand times, or so. Actually, the 111 handled much like any smaller fighter. You just had to remember how much mass you were horsing around.
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Your memory of the jet is rather different than mine. 70 degrees nose down was considered virtually unrecoverable when I was in the 'Vark unless you were up in the stratosphere -- you'd be supersonic before you knew what happened. Even 30 degree dive bombing was considered a high-risk maneuver.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your memory of the jet is rather different than mine. 70 degrees nose down was considered virtually unrecoverable when I was in the 'Vark unless you were up in the stratosphere -- you'd be supersonic before you knew what happened. Even 30 degree dive bombing was considered a high-risk maneuver.
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You're very correct, assuming you went into the maneuver with the wings pulled back beyond 26. Being able to sweep them forward to 16 allowed you to dive at a steep angle. Forward sweep, raise the boards, drop the big main gear door in speed brake configuration and you could do it. We never called it the Vark or Aardvark, BTW. That's something that came along after my lifespan. But you're right: pull the wings back, leave her clean and you'd be supersonic in a New York second. At that point you'd better have lots of sky to use in pulling out. I seem to remember that someone figured out that at 2.5 you needed 40 miles to make a 90 degree turn. That's just a memory, though. Don't know it for certain.

Another BTW: I only flew the A model. Did you do much of the toss-bombing?
 
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2256Q said:
You're very correct, assuming you went into the maneuver with the wings pulled back beyond 26. Being able to sweep them forward to 16 allowed you to dive at a steep angle. Forward sweep, raise the boards, drop the big main gear door in speed brake configuration and you could do it.
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With 16 wing, even with the speed brake extended, I still think at 70 nose down you'd be through the speed limit for that sweep before you knew what was happening, even at idle thrust.
We never called it the Vark or Aardvark, BTW.
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Jeepers -- you must have been real early in the program, and early out, too. In any event, we didn't do maneuvers like that in my time in the jet (1980-88).
Another BTW: I only flew the A model. Did you do much of the toss-bombing?
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I was in the D's and E's. We did a lot of toss-bombing in the digital D, but lofted deliveries in the analog E were a strictly drogue-retarded nuclear delivery (the infamous LADD).
 
Ron Levy said:
I was in the D's and E's. We did a lot of toss-bombing in the digital D, but lofted deliveries in the analog E were a strictly drogue-retarded nuclear delivery (the infamous LADD).
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Ron,

Were you at Plattsburgh?

I was at Griffiss in SAC during that time (GAFB was Buff and F102)

We felt sorry for those poor -- ummm -- folks up at Plattsburgh (even though Rome had more snowfall and basically the same winter temps!)
 
Ron Levy said:
With 16 wing, even with the speed brake extended, I still think at 70 nose down you'd be through the speed limit for that sweep before you knew what was happening, even at idle thrust.
Jeepers -- you must have been real early in the program, and early out, too. In any event, we didn't do maneuvers like that in my time in the jet (1980-88).
I was in the D's and E's. We did a lot of toss-bombing in the digital D, but lofted deliveries in the analog E were a strictly drogue-retarded nuclear delivery (the infamous LADD).
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My first flight in the 111 was in Feb. 68. Went through all the compressor stall problems before the triple-plow was perfected, and was among the group that pretty much figured out what the plane could and couldn't do. Sort of an ad hoc test pilot bunch of dummies, but not true test pilots. I heard about the D, but never actually saw one. Spent a little time around the FB but never flew one. I was strictly analog era. My last flight in a 111 was in 78.
 
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