Hawaii Helicopter Crash

I suspect he was low and slow when the engine failed . A bad spot to be.
 
I was thinking SWP as well. Possibility of a high speed shaft failure. Seems like the engine revved high at the end. Also the left yaw would account for that if the shaft failed.
 
Not being a rotor guy,could he have been trying to auto rotate and wasn't high enough? Surprised the hell didn't have floats.
 
Looks like a tail rotor problem to me. You don't get settling with power if you're descending at an angle like he was - for vortex ring state to occur you need to be directly descending straight down into your own down wash. We used to practice this in flight school at altitude and I can say it's a very unnerving feeling when it happens.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Looks like a tail rotor problem to me. You don't get settling with power if you're descending at an angle like he was - for vortex ring state to occur you need to be directly descending straight down into your own down wash. We used to practice this in flight school at altitude and I can say it's a very unnerving feeling when it happens.
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Depends upon the wind. If he had a slight tailwind and was moving forward at the same speed, high torque, heavy, he would induce settling.
 
Glad he hit the water for a softer landing /crash....... And No fire either....

Hope they all heal up quickly...
 
frfly172 said:
Not being a rotor guy,could he have been trying to auto rotate and wasn't high enough? Surprised the hell didn't have floats.
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If it were an engine failure or an high speed shaft failure (drive shaft), then yes, he could have been trying to autorotate. Generally at zero airspeed, you don't want to be anywhere above 10 ft (500 ft & abv is good) for a successful auto. If it were SWP then he's along for the ride that low.

It appears they didn't have floats but a lot of times they use them over there.
 

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Heard it yesterday on ATC. Helicopter sank so fast that ATC had 2 other pilots (helo and airplane) look for it at the harbor. They ended up not finding it. It even took awhile for the police helicopter to spot them.
 
Velocity173 said:
If it were an engine failure or an high speed shaft failure (drive shaft), then yes, he could have been trying to autorotate. Generally at zero airspeed, you don't want to be anywhere above 10 ft (500 ft & abv is good) for a successful auto. If it were SWP then he's along for the ride that low.



It appears they didn't have floats but a lot of times they use them over there.
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Are those floats that activate in an emergency? Pretty cool.
 
N801BH said:
Pretty damn kool.....

Are like airbags where it is a "one and done" ?.. Or can they be repacked and reused?
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The question is whether or not the helicopter can be re-used. The word was that the helicopter usually capsizes before it can be recovered. They don't tow well and there usually isn't a crane around.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Didn't the H-46s used to have inflatable bags mounted on the sides to keep them from rolling over in the water?
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Never seen one with floats. I know they have a limited water flotation time like the 47 without floats though. The HH-46 we had at NBC (Angel) sank to the bottom of the Atlantic just off shore of S.C. Not sure how long that thing floated after ditching.

The whole float bag thing is just to keep the aircraft upright so the occupants can egress. Many versions out there and different sea states that they can operate in. I've yet to get signed off on ours because we have only one 407 in the fleet with floats, so I'm not sure of all the limitations on them.
 
I have planted a AH-1 fully loaded in a Settling with Power incident...the rotor droop is a good indicator... one the vortex ring state is complete the rotor system is worthless even as your over torqueing and drooping the rotor system with a the natural reaction to pull more power...It is the worst thing to do.

My scenario which kept me from losing my wings in a Flight Evaluation Board was as follows...

We were supporting the first M-1 tank battalion in Europe on their initial combined arms gunnery we called them CALFX and the dog and pony show was in full swing showing off the new Armor. I was the PIC on the last of my 5 trips to rage 301 at Graff. During the last rearm and refuel while on the pad had had a frontal passage and what was a slight head wind coming out of refuel was now a 15-20 knot tailwind. Our normal procedure was to load and pull to a 200ft OGE Hover and confirm power available and then proceed onto the range.

All was good at the OGE hover but as I started forward I started to rapidly descend and was pulling all the way down till impact...

Contributing factors...

Double load of ammo because if we did not shoot it we had to wait a week to turn it in. Light on gas but heavy on ammo.

The AH-1F had a flight stabilization system that could add up to 20% input to maintain yaw attitude without the pilot knowing it happened allowing you to hover like a pro in a tailwind...I was good but not that good.

4 hours already in the cockpit and not knowing the significant wind shift putting me in ETL (Effective Transitional Lift) at the 200 ft. hover. We had no weather reporting and no observer.

Incorrectly thinking it was an engine failure and not the fact as I moved forward I came out of ELT and lost efficiency and started dropping...then power pull with the sink rate inducing settling with power. I walked away after two hour wait for EOD to de-armed the aircraft and pay for it now with disc compression in my lower back.

On a side note this was the first time we fired the Hydra 70 2.75 Rockets and also avoided near disaster when we figured our firing more than two pair at the same time at a hover removed enough oxygen from around the aircraft to make the engine droop. A quad all shot during the range earlier in the day damn near induced an engine failure...a month later Army caught on and sent out a bulletin limiting fire at a hover....
 
N801BH said:
Glad he hit the water for a softer landing /crash....... And No fire either....

Hope they all heal up quickly...
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Was thinking the same thing. At least they survived.
 
What year was this Warlock? I think I remember reading about it in Flight Fax.
 
1988 range 301 not sure if it made flightfax or not if I remember ended up being a class c but that was probably a stretch...soon there after our sister battalion had a Class A not far away that most people remember...
 
Warlock said:
Incorrectly thinking it was an engine failure and not the fact as I moved forward I came out of ELT and lost efficiency and started dropping...
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I'm sorry about your back.

That's a helluva situation. Thanks for the info.
 
With all the negative talk about RC drones, a positive note here: As I'm learning to fly the Syma x8c I've encounted the vortex ring state more than a few times. It's pretty interesting to try and fly out of it, sideways or forward or back. More power doesn't do anything. I've dropped mine in from 300 feet straight down, full power...luck was with me as I was over long grass and did no damage. But it allowed me to see that it was a ring state in HI from the first time I viewed the video and the increasing power not doing anything to arrest the descent was a clue. Of course, it could be mechanical, but the increase power sound doesn't happen until the last twenty or thirty feet of the descent. RC flying does teach.
 
Warlock said:
1988 range 301 not sure if it made flightfax or not if I remember ended up being a class c but that was probably a stretch...soon there after our sister battalion had a Class A not far away that most people remember...
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Well I found one in the Sept 1988 issue. Doesn't sound like it was yours though. These guys departed the FARP with full gas and a crap load of ammo (9,900 lb gross). They were following an OH-58 and over trq' several times. Finally at 125 % they got into SWP and impacted terrain. The pic shows a crushed Cobra with broken blades.
 
No that's not it...but it happened around the same time and I believe that was stateside. I don't ever remember it making flightfax due to the delay in reporting and the absolute mess our unit was in at the time. The Brigade Commander had just gotten fired (Second DWI) our Battalion was acting and the operation was a Gun Platoon only and I was the Platoon leader...it was first reported as an overtorque/possible hard landing with minor damage by my maintenance office and test pilot CW4 John Willingham and he actually flew it out to GAAF the next day. Skids were about 8 inches wider and trunion bearings were obviously overtorqued they were replace and aircraft was flown by John home...to compound reporting our Safety officer was in the hospital with appendicitis and no one told him...and no one planned on itso reporting never started...things were different and it got lost in the optempo and the early days of the Safety Center. Our Brigade had five class A's in the past 18 months and everything was in chaos if we had another...It was brought home and phased early...long story short it was hard to hide the fact it needed a new transmission and mounts and some six months later it all bubbled to the surface but most of the individuals had PCS'ed at the time...I got threatened with an FEB but nothing happened.
Velocity173 said:
Well I found one in the Sept 1988 issue. Doesn't sound like it was yours though. These guys departed the FARP with full gas and a crap load of ammo (9,900 lb gross). They were following an OH-58 and over trq' several times. Finally at 125 % they got into SWP and impacted terrain. The pic shows a crushed Cobra with broken blades.
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Looks like they were flying out of LIH. And that horn sounds like a stall warning horn in a Cessna. At least it looks like everyone walked away from that one.
 
Ghery said:
Looks like they were flying out of LIH. And that horn sounds like a stall warning horn in a Cessna. At least it looks like everyone walked away from that one.
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Yeah, low rotor. It's annoying.
 
Velocity I was stationed at NBC during that time frame as well. I slept much better at night knowing you guys would come fish us out of the drink when/if we balled it up in the SOA's. You guys were the reason my squadronmate "Crush" Nichols lived as long as he did... Turning and feet away from the jet in two minutes, had him to Savannah inside of 20. It was a sad day in Beaufort when Angel went away.
 
USMCF18 said:
Velocity I was stationed at NBC during that time frame as well. I slept much better at night knowing you guys would come fish us out of the drink when/if we balled it up in the SOA's. You guys were the reason my squadronmate "Crush" Nichols lived as long as he did... Turning and feet away from the jet in two minutes, had him to Savannah inside of 20. It was a sad day in Beaufort when Angel went away.
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First post.....

Welcome to POA....

:cheers::cheers:
 
USMCF18 said:
Velocity I was stationed at NBC during that time frame as well. I slept much better at night knowing you guys would come fish us out of the drink when/if we balled it up in the SOA's. You guys were the reason my squadronmate "Crush" Nichols lived as long as he did... Turning and feet away from the jet in two minutes, had him to Savannah inside of 20. It was a sad day in Beaufort when Angel went away.
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Oh I wasn't a Frog guy. I worked ATC at the time. If you flew out of NBC during the 90s, there's a good chance I gave you a GCA or worked you on approach.

Welcome to POA.
 
Thanks for the welcome! Been a lurker for a while now. Got to NBC in 2001 so I think we didn't cross paths unfortunately.
 
USMCF18 said:
Thanks for the welcome! Been a lurker for a while now. Got to NBC in 2001 so I think we didn't cross paths unfortunately.
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What squadron? Pilot?
 
Was in VMFA 122 from '01-'05, 533 from '06-'09, and 224 from '10-'13. Yes, pilot type.
 
USMCF18 said:
Was in VMFA 122 from '01-'05, 533 from '06-'09, and 224 from '10-'13. Yes, pilot type.
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Crusaders! Awesome. A 533 aircraft went down in the Warning Area in the late 90s. Watched the radar tapes on that one...sad. Had another "Hawk" go supersonic during a MOA attack as well.:yes:
 

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