Has anyone ever failed a checkride for "Postflight Procedures"?

RussR

RussR

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Every PTS or ACS for every checkride I've taken has a final task of "Postflight procedures" - performing a postflight inspection, noting any discrepancies, etc.

Since it is an actual "task", it is something that is supposed to be evaluated on the checkride.

Some of my examiners have done the congratulatory handshake as we taxied in, before seeing how well I did the "postflight inspection" (or if I did one at all). I'm sure this is typical. Sometimes, the examiner has already been inside by the time I get out of the airplane.

Clearly this is an area that is not well evaluated, or more accurately, pretty much ignored on the checkride.

But since it's a "task", someone could actually fail the checkride due to improper postflight procedures.

So, my two questions:
1) Has anyone actually done fine on the checkride up until this point, but then failed on the postflight inspection?
2) If not, has anyone ever had this task included with others on a "Notice of Disapproval"? (Such as "unsat areas - steep turns, crosswind landings, and postflight procedures.")
3) What exactly would you have to do to fail this task? Get out without shutting down the engine?
 
Post flight? The usual routine is taxi to the ramp. Shut the plane off. Set the brake. Note the Hobbs time. Get out and find out if you passed and get your ticket. Otherwise, well you know the alternative.
 
mulligan said:
No, I usually fail way earlier
Click to expand...

Me too. LOL!

Seriously though, I could see if you got out for the congratulatory photo and the airplane rolled away and ran into something, the examiner might say, "Ummm, nevermind..." hahaha.
 
Almost - potstflight checkride (CAP, of course) - check pilot asked me:

CP: What color are runways markers?
Me: Red and white!
CP: Which is which? Are the numbers red, or are they white?
Me: I dunno; does it matter? I know a runway marker when I see one, and that' worked out for me.
CP: (becoming agitated) Don't you have runway markers at your airport?
Me: Roger that, sure do
CP: But you don't know what color they are?
Me: Oh yeah, they're red and white;
CP (getting a little more red-faced) I need to hear that you KNOW which is which!
(clearly pass/fail was on the line, based on red-over-white, vs white-over-red)
Me: OK, but to be honest with you, I'll just be guessing - white on red? (I was guessing that would make for better contrast)

Having admitted I didn't know, clearly didn't care, and was just guessing - he passed me.

There were some weird times in that outfit! Calling for a flight release, the guy asked me if the tow bar had been removed!
"I dunno, I'm not at the airport. But if it's still on the nose gear when I arrive, I'll be inclined to remove it."
"Call me back when you get there, confirm you've removed the tow bar".
"WTF are you on about?? Why the eff would I NOT/NOT remove a tow bar?"
"Someone took off with a tow bar still attached - it's an item of emphasis now."
"As opposed to taking off with the flaps down, or the brake set, or carb heat on, or etc. . .?"
"Those things haven't been happening!"
"Ah. . .I just pulled into the airport - the tow bar has been removed! (still in my driveway).
 
Avemco says 14% of all of their claims have to do with parking and securing, which is the official title of the last section in the ACS. This one, however, is hard to fail in the context of taking a checkride in a flight school airplane. Most of these places have a designated ramp, where parking and securing is a simple matter of placing a chock -- if the next student isn't already waiting at the airplane when you get back.

In real life, though, this process has an unusually high rate of claims in the insurance world, usually related to improperly pushing aircraft into hangars, resulting in damage to the tail or a wing. Bad parking etiquette also has a high rate of "****ing off the locals" if visitors don't consider the threat their unsecured aircraft can pose to other aircraft on the ramp.

The biggest problem that I see is aircraft parked on ramps that are left unsecured. This always seems to happen around 2 hours before a major thunderstorm is scheduled to roll through town. Inevitably, the unsecured aircraft is parked facing east, allowing winds coming from the west to blow it into the other aircraft, which are parked and tied down facing west to better withstand high winds.

If you don't carry your own set of tie downs, I highly recommend it.

http://kfor.com/2015/09/11/storms-cause-nearly-a-million-dollars-in-damage-to-osu-airplanes/
http://www.flyingmag.com/photo-gall...amage-chandler-municipal-airport-kchd#page-27
 
Agreed, DPEs normally just jump out of the plane and go start the paperwork, including mine.
I assume he passed that task on his checklist when I said "np, go ahead, I need a few minutes to secure the airplane". *shrug*
 
I failed the NDB approach on my instrument checkride. We continued and did the rest of the approaches and maneuvers successfully. The closest NDB approach was about 25 miles from the home airport.

On the re test, I did the NDB successfully, so the examiner said lets go back to the airport. Now it has been a while since I had flown without a view limiting device and just as long since I had done a visual approach and landing.

I am thinking to myself.... I am going to fail an instrument checkride on a visual approach..!!!

Somehow I managed to get the plane down and pass....
 
Sundancer said:
Almost - potstflight checkride (CAP, of course) - check pilot asked me:

CP: What color are runways markers?
Me: Red and white!
CP: Which is which? Are the numbers red, or are they white?
Me: I dunno; does it matter? I know a runway marker when I see one, and that' worked out for me.
CP: (becoming agitated) Don't you have runway markers at your airport?
Me: Roger that, sure do
CP: But you don't know what color they are?
Me: Oh yeah, they're red and white;
CP (getting a little more red-faced) I need to hear that you KNOW which is which!
(clearly pass/fail was on the line, based on red-over-white, vs white-over-red)
Me: OK, but to be honest with you, I'll just be guessing - white on red? (I was guessing that would make for better contrast)

Having admitted I didn't know, clearly didn't care, and was just guessing - he passed me.

There were some weird times in that outfit! Calling for a flight release, the guy asked me if the tow bar had been removed!
"I dunno, I'm not at the airport. But if it's still on the nose gear when I arrive, I'll be inclined to remove it."
"Call me back when you get there, confirm you've removed the tow bar".
"WTF are you on about?? Why the eff would I NOT/NOT remove a tow bar?"
"Someone took off with a tow bar still attached - it's an item of emphasis now."
"As opposed to taking off with the flaps down, or the brake set, or carb heat on, or etc. . .?"
"Those things haven't been happening!"
"Ah. . .I just pulled into the airport - the tow bar has been removed! (still in my driveway).
Click to expand...
Yup.....tow bar incident happened to one of the Colorado squadrons. Caused a grounding of the entire wing.
 
Harold Rutila said:
Avemco says 14% of all of their claims have to do with parking and securing, which is the official title of the last section in the ACS.
Click to expand...

It actually depends on which checkride we're talking about. The Area of Operation is "Postflight procedures", but the Task name varies.

For Private Pilot, it's "After Landing, Parking, and Securing", which consists of such skills as parking, running the checklist and documenting equipment discrepancies.
For the Instrument Rating, it's "Checking Instruments and Equipment" and doesn't require you to successfully park the airplane (!), just to complete a postflight inspection and document discrepancies.
For the Commercial Pilot, it's the same as the Private Pilot.
For ATP (still a PTS), it's similar but in a lot more detail.

This one, however, is hard to fail in the context of taking a checkride in a flight school airplane. Most of these places have a designated ramp, where parking and securing is a simple matter of placing a chock -- if the next student isn't already waiting at the airplane when you get back.
Click to expand...

I agree it's got to be really hard to fail this item, which is why I'm wondering if anyone ever has. I work mostly with aircraft owners, and they also pick the examiner up at the FBO and park there after landing, so pretty much the same thing - no real problem parking and usually the ramp guy will chock it. Again, not really much to do! Then they'll take it back to the hangar after finishing with the examiner.
 
Sundancer said:
Almost - potstflight checkride (CAP, of course) - check pilot asked me:

CP: What color are runways markers?
Me: Red and white!
CP: Which is which? Are the numbers red, or are they white?
Me: I dunno; does it matter? I know a runway marker when I see one, and that' worked out for me.
CP: (becoming agitated) Don't you have runway markers at your airport?
Me: Roger that, sure do
CP: But you don't know what color they are?
Me: Oh yeah, they're red and white;
CP (getting a little more red-faced) I need to hear that you KNOW which is which!
(clearly pass/fail was on the line, based on red-over-white, vs white-over-red)
Me: OK, but to be honest with you, I'll just be guessing - white on red? (I was guessing that would make for better contrast)

Having admitted I didn't know, clearly didn't care, and was just guessing - he passed me.

There were some weird times in that outfit! Calling for a flight release, the guy asked me if the tow bar had been removed!
"I dunno, I'm not at the airport. But if it's still on the nose gear when I arrive, I'll be inclined to remove it."
"Call me back when you get there, confirm you've removed the tow bar".
"WTF are you on about?? Why the eff would I NOT/NOT remove a tow bar?"
"Someone took off with a tow bar still attached - it's an item of emphasis now."
"As opposed to taking off with the flaps down, or the brake set, or carb heat on, or etc. . .?"
"Those things haven't been happening!"
"Ah. . .I just pulled into the airport - the tow bar has been removed! (still in my driveway).
Click to expand...
Can't wrap my arms around this. Who has ever seen red numbers in a white background???
 
I asked the DPE if the checkride was done after shutting down the engines for my ATP exam. He said not until you complete the post flight procedures. So I did and passed. If I didn't follow the checklist I suspect I might have failed.
 
Funny, out of the eight certificate or rating practical tests that I've taken, on two occasions at the end of the flight the examiner let me know I passed and asked to take the controls and make the landing. Sure thing. Ever since, if the examiner informs me that I've passed while we're still in the air, I offer to let them take the controls. They've always politely declined.
 
Brad Z said:
Funny, out of the eight certificate or rating practical tests that I've taken, on two occasions at the end of the flight the examiner let me know I passed and asked to take the controls and make the landing. Sure thing. Ever since, if the examiner informs me that I've passed while we're still in the air, I offer to let them take the controls. They've always politely declined.
Click to expand...
I've never been informed I've passed while still in the air.
At least in the 121/135 world they want to see a shutdown/securing checklist. Never had it any other way.
 
I was told I passed my most recent checkride as I taxied off the runway. He said, you passed, as long as you don't hit anything taxiing back...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Kritchlow said:
Can't wrap my arms around this. Who has ever seen red numbers in a white background???
Click to expand...
Oh, it was on me, I know - it just took me aback as a sincere query. . .and I couldn't picture the darn sign. It just seemed white on red would be easier to see, so I guessed right. Bigger picture - of all the useless trivia to get spun up about, of all stump-the-dummy questions to be anal about, that one struck me as a real oddball.
 
murphey said:
Yup.....tow bar incident happened to one of the Colorado squadrons. Caused a grounding of the entire wing.
Click to expand...
Wow. Though I'd be inclined to place the "cause" of the Wing's grounding on something other than one pilot mucking up. . .
 
murphey said:
Yup.....tow bar incident happened to one of the Colorado squadrons. Caused a grounding of the entire wing.
Click to expand...

LOL. And the Wing didn't stop flying when someone knocked the entire tail off of a 182. And then someone else pushed a 182 into a pole.

Sundancer said:
Wow. Though I'd be inclined to place the "cause" of the Wing's grounding on something other than one pilot mucking up. . .
Click to expand...

You'd be wrong.

Someone needs to pen a Safety StandDown song.

To the tune of "I've Been Working On The Railroad..."

We aren't flying, Safety Stand Down,
All the live long day,
We aren't flying, Safety Stand Down,
Just to **** our lives a-way...

Can't you hear the brass a' moanin?
A jerk left a tow bar on,
PowerPoint Hell is all we're flyin',
Until all the reports are done!

Stand Down won't you go,
Stand Down won't you go,
Stand Down won't you go a-way-ay-ay!

Stand Down won't you go,
Stand Down won't you go,
Stand Down won't you go a-way?

Someone's in the hangar with a clip-board,
Someone's in the hangar I know, oh, oh, oh,
Someone's in the hangar with a clip-board!
Brass has got to have a show!

Hey!

Stand Down won't you go...

(Repeat and fade...)

;-)
 
For my GA rides, the examiner has always said I'll meet you in side and didn't really seem to care about the post flight tasks. For my type ride and recurrent, it's not over until the end of the secure checklist.
 
jordane93 said:
For my GA rides, the examiner has always said I'll meet you in side and didn't really seem to care about the post flight tasks. For my type ride and recurrent, it's not over until the end of the secure checklist.
Click to expand...
Yeah... I think a ride is more "complete" when talking 135/121.
 
I didn't fail but I did have my DPE for my private checkride say "Dammit son, let me out of this airplane now!"

We were at idle on the ramp and he wanted to climb out without shutting down (to watch me make a trip around the pattern) and I didn't want to let him because I thought it was a judgement test. Then the quote. I didn't shut it down, he got out, I flew my pattern, and he passed me.

Nauga,
who has heard it from passengers too :confused:
 
Brad Z said:
Funny, out of the eight certificate or rating practical tests that I've taken, on two occasions at the end of the flight the examiner let me know I passed and asked to take the controls and make the landing.
Click to expand...

My examiner did that at the end of my instrument checkride. He landed at a lot shallower angle than I always do. lol.
 
nauga said:
We were at idle on the ramp and he wanted to climb out without shutting down (to watch me make a trip around the pattern) and I didn't want to let him because I thought it was a judgement test.
Click to expand...

Something similar on my private checkride. We were getting ready to taxi and I was briefing him about seat belts. He buckled his, and then pulled his arm out from it so it wasn't going across his chest. I thought it was a judgement test just like you did, and told him he couldn't wear it that way, but he told me to continue that it wasn't a test. He just didn't like wearing the seat belt properly.
 
Brad Z said:
Funny, out of the eight certificate or rating practical tests that I've taken, on two occasions at the end of the flight the examiner let me know I passed and asked to take the controls and make the landing. Sure thing. Ever since, if the examiner informs me that I've passed while we're still in the air, I offer to let them take the controls. They've always politely declined.
Click to expand...

I was pretty sure we were finished with my PPL checkride when the examiner asked if he could take the controls. I thought maybe I had flubbed something that I wasn't aware of, and he was going to "show me how it's done" for my re-test. Thankfully that wasn't the case. He just wanted to show off a bit. He pulled the power back to idle on downwind abeam the midpoint of the runway. He said, "I'm going to have the wheels touch on the second stripe past the numbers", as he descended in a 180 degree turn. It felt like we were skimming the treetops. We were very low as we approached the threshold, but he kept working the ground effect, mushing the plane along. We were inches above the runway, and I was sure we were going to run out of lift and plunk down early. As we got to that second stripe, he pulled back and it paid off. No ballooning, no nothing, just the little squeak of the wheels as they touched down exactly on that stripe. Pretty impressive. This guy was awesome. He had a real passion for aviation. He was having fun and showing me that flying can be fun, challenging, and you can always improve your skills. Wow, that was 28 years ago. Seems like yesterday, or maybe the day before...
 
Sundancer said:
Almost - potstflight checkride (CAP, of course) - check pilot asked me:

CP: What color are runways markers?
Me: Red and white!
CP: Which is which? Are the numbers red, or are they white?
Me: I dunno; does it matter? I know a runway marker when I see one, and that' worked out for me.
CP: (becoming agitated) Don't you have runway markers at your airport?
Me: Roger that, sure do
CP: But you don't know what color they are?
Me: Oh yeah, they're red and white;
CP (getting a little more red-faced) I need to hear that you KNOW which is which!
(clearly pass/fail was on the line, based on red-over-white, vs white-over-red)
Me: OK, but to be honest with you, I'll just be guessing - white on red? (I was guessing that would make for better contrast)

Having admitted I didn't know, clearly didn't care, and was just guessing - he passed me.

There were some weird times in that outfit! Calling for a flight release, the guy asked me if the tow bar had been removed!
"I dunno, I'm not at the airport. But if it's still on the nose gear when I arrive, I'll be inclined to remove it."
"Call me back when you get there, confirm you've removed the tow bar".
"WTF are you on about?? Why the eff would I NOT/NOT remove a tow bar?"
"Someone took off with a tow bar still attached - it's an item of emphasis now."
"As opposed to taking off with the flaps down, or the brake set, or carb heat on, or etc. . .?"
"Those things haven't been happening!"
"Ah. . .I just pulled into the airport - the tow bar has been removed! (still in my driveway).
Click to expand...
What kind of idiots do you have in your squadron?

The emphasis is to REMIND you to remove the towbar, not to verify you have done it.

CAP, like any large organization, sometimes gets a little silly closing the barn door after the horses have gotten out. But not THAT silly.

And there is no checklist item on Form 5 for that kind of detail. It says airport and runway markings and lighting. My Form 5s typically involve a flashcard or two and "what's this?" And they like to use the hold short line, for kinda obvious reasons. And the oral is always preflight.

I think your StanEval guys need some training.
 
pburger said:
I was pretty sure we were finished with my PPL checkride when the examiner asked if he could take the controls. I thought maybe I had flubbed something that I wasn't aware of, and he was going to "show me how it's done" for my re-test. Thankfully that wasn't the case. He just wanted to show off a bit. He pulled the power back to idle on downwind abeam the midpoint of the runway. He said, "I'm going to have the wheels touch on the second stripe past the numbers", as he descended in a 180 degree turn. It felt like we were skimming the treetops. We were very low as we approached the threshold, but he kept working the ground effect, mushing the plane along. We were inches above the runway, and I was sure we were going to run out of lift and plunk down early. As we got to that second stripe, he pulled back and it paid off. No ballooning, no nothing, just the little squeak of the wheels as they touched down exactly on that stripe. Pretty impressive. This guy was awesome. He had a real passion for aviation. He was having fun and showing me that flying can be fun, challenging, and you can always improve your skills. Wow, that was 28 years ago. Seems like yesterday, or maybe the day before...
Click to expand...

It seems like 20 years ago examiners were more likely to do stuff like that. Nowadays the FAA takes a dim view on examiners doing anything more than observing (for obvious reasons). Like myself, you probably never considered 28 years ago that if he had skimmed those treetops a little closer and something happened, you were PIC and on the hook for the consequences (at least in theory).
 
Brad Z said:
Funny, out of the eight certificate or rating practical tests that I've taken, on two occasions at the end of the flight the examiner let me know I passed and asked to take the controls and make the landing. Sure thing. Ever since, if the examiner informs me that I've passed while we're still in the air, I offer to let them take the controls. They've always politely declined.
Click to expand...

On my ATP ride the examiner took the controls between the approaches so I could set up for the next one. Really busy airspace. Then after we finished the flight portion he asked if he could do the landing. Sure thing..... for 20 bucks.


Well, that was what I thought about saying after I was driving away from the airport while trying not to smudge the ink on my temporary....
 
Last edited:
Zeldman said:
On my ATP ride the examiner took the controls between the approaches so I could set up for the next one. Really busy airspace. Then after we finished the flight portion he asked if he could do the landing. Sure thing..... for 20 bucks.


Well, that was what I thought about saying after I was driving away from the airport while trying not to smudge the ink on my temprary....
Click to expand...
I mean really, who's gonna say 'no' to guy who literally hold your ticket in his hand?

That said, usually by the end of a checkride I'd be happy to be a passenger for a few minutes.
 
denverpilot said:
Me too. LOL!

Seriously though, I could see if you got out for the congratulatory photo and the airplane rolled away and ran into something, the examiner might say, "Ummm, nevermind..." hahaha.
Click to expand...

Or you could taxi across a runway without clearance as you taxi to the ramp...

"I can either write you up as a failure, or I could pass you and schedule a 709 ride at the same time...".
 
MAKG1 said:
What kind of idiots do you have in your squadron?

The emphasis is to REMIND you to remove the towbar, not to verify you have done it.

CAP, like any large organization, sometimes gets a little silly closing the barn door after the horses have gotten out. But not THAT silly.

And there is no checklist item on Form 5 for that kind of detail. It says airport and runway markings and lighting. My Form 5s typically involve a flashcard or two and "what's this?" And they like to use the hold short line, for kinda obvious reasons. And the oral is always preflight.

I think your StanEval guys need some training.
Click to expand...
Oh, I think they were standard, garden variety idiots; not any new kind of fools; If it matters, the CP wasn't from my squadron. And yeah, a few years back, CAP did have FROs asking about the tow bar, and yeah, it was stupid. Whatever you call it, verifying or reminding, it was nonsensical. Enough SAS like that adds up, and so finally broke the back of my participation, after 14 years.

Consistency wasn't the norm in CAP, at least not when I stepped away back in 2013; and if a CP wanted to ask more questions after a checkride, like most pilots, I was going to indulge him, right? I knew in advance that was his habit.

CAP could could do some real good work, and depending on personal tolerance, and local situations, it can be a good place to do some flying, do some good. It is very, very dependent on the individual squadron, and to a lesser extent, on the Wing. I don't want to paint it all black; just for me, personally, the bar on nonsense was below my willingness to put up with it any longer. Writ large, it's a clumsy bureaucracy, with some shaky ethics, and local folks get positive stuff done in spite of the bigger organization.

I wasn't part of the cadet program, other than flying them on orientation rides - my impression was the consistently best work was probably done with the kids. Beyond that, it's all over the place, depending on the local situation.
 
Kritchlow said:
I've never been informed I've passed while still in the air.
Click to expand...
I remember the examiner informing me in the air on my private. He also wanted to do the last landing. I don't remember much about the other checkrides I have taken in airplanes, but I'm pretty certain they told me before I had the airplane tied down.
Kritchlow said:
At least in the 121/135 world they want to see a shutdown/securing checklist. Never had it any other way.
Click to expand...
All the 135 checkrides I have taken have been in a sim (except the line check) so that's a little different situation. I found it amusing that, due to scheduling, they would sometimes do the pictorial preflight (looking at photos on a monitor, for people who are wondering) after the sim session. I'm not sure anyone fails the pictorial preflight, though.
 
Everskyward said:
I remember the examiner informing me in the air on my private. He also wanted to do the last landing. I don't remember much about the other checkrides I have taken in airplanes, but I'm pretty certain they told me before I had the airplane tied down.
All the 135 checkrides I have taken have been in a sim (except the line check) so that's a little different situation. I found it amusing that, due to scheduling, they would sometimes do the pictorial preflight (looking at photos on a monitor, for people who are wondering) after the sim session. I'm not sure anyone fails the pictorial preflight, though.
Click to expand...
We have also done the pictorial preflight..
Even in the sim we were required to taxi clear of the runway and run the after landing, shutdown, and securing checklist.
 
Kritchlow said:
Even in the sim we were required to taxi clear of the runway and run the after landing, shutdown, and securing checklist.
Click to expand...
Yes, but it seems that would be more expected in a sim than in real life. The examiner can't get out of the sim while it's on motion to go fill out the paperwork...
 
Everskyward said:
Yes, but it seems that would be more expected in a sim than in real life. The examiner can't get out of the sim while it's on motion to go fill out the paperwork...
Click to expand...

Well technically it's kinda entertaining to get out of the airplane while it's still rolling, too... ;)
 
Brad Z said:
I mean really, who's gonna say 'no' to guy who literally hold your ticket in his hand?

That said, usually by the end of a checkride I'd be happy to be a passenger for a few minutes.
Click to expand...
Did you check his currency and medical?
 
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