Hangar space - in demand…

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
So, what’s the deal with hangar space? Everywhere I look, it’s “sold out”, and if you can find anything, it’s not cheap. Sells as soon as construction is announced. (Phoenix area).

Seems like getting some land on an airport and building… would maybe not be be a bad idea. What am I missing? Will things reverse quickly in a recession?
 
dans2992 said:
So, what’s the deal with hangar space? Everywhere I look, it’s “sold out”, and if you can find anything, it’s not cheap. Sells as soon as construction is announced. (Phoenix area).

Seems like getting some land on an airport and building… would maybe not be be a bad idea. What am I missing? Will things reverse quickly in a recession?
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if it was that simple to build a hangar in the phoenix area there would be more building.


There is a reason IWA is the only place with a lot of development right now.
 
IK04 said:
I will not live long enough to find hangar space in Texas. The waiting lists will go on to infinity...
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Have you considered New Mexico? Right next door.
 
Do you want to rent, own, or build?

I have come across all 3 options at a variety of airports in my area - I don’t think it is rare at all but if you limit yourself to a single airport that only has rental options at a subsidized rate, well then you might be in trouble. A lot of data online is outdated when it comes to aviation, so you need to research your options, then find the ownership structure of potential options, then try to find sources of updated data, that could be in person there could be a notice board, a website, an email list, etc.

I think there should always be options available, just a matter of time, money and effort.
 
Might I suggest finding someone willing to share space and buy or build a lift? My airport is for sale and have this grandiose idea of seeing if the guys with hangars would be interested in buying the airport which would buy them their hangar. There's room to build more hangars and I think with a more attentive owner/manager could actually turn the airport around. imagejpeg_0_10.jpg
 
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Racerx said:
Might I suggest finding someone willing to share space and buy or build a lift? My airport is for sale and have this grandiose idea of seeing if the guys with hangars would be interested in buying the airport which would buy them their hangar. There's room to build more hangars and I think with a more attentive owner/manager could actually turn the airport around. View attachment 112525
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interesting lift. Is insurance OK with that storage method?

ideally, I’d like to own a hangar, but, alas, none for sale. There are some airport “lots” available, but they’re more like 20 year leases, and large enough that I’d need to build a larger hangar and sublet space. Etc…. Probably nothing cheaper than $1m!
 
dans2992 said:
interesting lift. Is insurance OK with that storage method?
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I do that with cars - don't see why insurance would be more worried with lighter weight airplanes...

And to the OP - I agree - hangar availability in some parts of the country is bonkers. My friend in Columbus OH is trying to find a hangar at OSU, CMH or TZR and has been told the wait lists are all 5+ years out even as TZR is building out a huge new hangar complex. When I moved there in 2010, there was immediate T hangar availability and I was able to choose from 3-4 different hangars (all quite cheap)
 
dans2992 said:
interesting lift. Is insurance OK with that storage method?

ideally, I’d like to own a hangar, but, alas, none for sale. There are some airport “lots” available, but they’re more like 20 year leases, and large enough that I’d need to build a larger hangar and sublet space. Etc…. Probably nothing cheaper than $1m!
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Don't see why insurance would care... The airport manager was another story. Told him we'd like to put 2 in 1 hangar, said people have tried but it won't work...but if we could get them in he'd be ok with it. Just didn't know how we were going to do it. He wasn't thrilled with it, but it's free standing so he relented.
 
I have heard from multiple sources that the regulations around building hangars have made it nearly impossible to build.
 
dans2992 said:
interesting lift. Is insurance OK with that storage method?

ideally, I’d like to own a hangar, but, alas, none for sale. There are some airport “lots” available, but they’re more like 20 year leases, and large enough that I’d need to build a larger hangar and sublet space. Etc…. Probably nothing cheaper than $1m!
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There’s a 340 up on a lift down at spruce creek!
 
MountainDude said:
I have heard from multiple sources that the regulations around building hangars have made it nearly impossible to build.
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What regulations are you referring to? I’m an airport manager who has dealt with this just recently. I’m not aware of any, besides some standards that have to be followed with the state to ensure the construction meets certain requirements, but it’s nothing substantial.
 
MountainDude said:
I have heard from multiple sources that the regulations around building hangars have made it nearly impossible to build.
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It depends on the airport and the requirements that the fire department wants to impose. Requiring two types of sprinkler systems for example would be super cost prohibitive. The other issue is airports and their lease terms and requirements. If the airport is only willing to give a 10-15 year lease on the ground no one is going to spend the money and take out a loan to build a hangar the city would ultimately end up with upon lease expiration. And a bank would never go for it. The builder is left high and dry and the city has a great asset they can lease or go out for bid on.


Lots of airport politics at work a lot of places. Not everywhere, but way too often.
 
Z06_Mir said:
It depends on the airport and the requirements that the fire department wants to impose. Requiring two types of sprinkler systems for example would be super cost prohibitive. The other issue is airports and their lease terms and requirements. If the airport is only willing to give a 10-15 year lease on the ground no one is going to spend the money and take out a loan to build a hangar the city would ultimately end up with upon lease expiration. And a bank would never go for it. The builder is left high and dry and the city has a great asset they can lease or go out for bid on.


Lots of airport politics at work a lot of places. Not everywhere, but way too often.
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That's new construction in general. After building my house and now a new commercial building. Dealing with building and zoning, fire marshal, public health department, army corps, etc. It's really a pain and every layer adds to cost exponentially
 
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Racerx said:
That's new construction in general. In the process of building a new industrial building on the same lot as our current building. Current building is without sprinklers. CMU building nothing to catch fire. New building will be steel and imp panels. The village defaults to fire Marshall regarding sprinklers. We're on a well and septic (despite paying for city water) they wanted us to pay to run sewer and water several hundred feet from the local subdivision. Luckily the subdivision didn't want their stuff torn up. Downfall is the fire marshal says we need sprinklers...and a separate way to feed the sprinklers should the well fail. So now we need a separate storage tank. I had a similar issue regarding sprinklers when I built my home. My house is unincorporated. County defaults to local fire Marshall. Luckily I was over 300 feet from city water or I would have had to pay to bore under the road to hook into it.
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Can you use a dry system as the secondary or is that a higher cost than the holding tank?


It's honestly ridiculous. Who knew the fire marshal would be the one encouraging or prohibiting development? I get it in high density spaces, but I don't understand commercial, metal buildings that pose no risk to the outside world. I also feel like it should be the homeowners choice (except high density) but I'm just a pilot, not a fire marshal.
 
Politics, cost of building, lack of pro-aviation leadership, risky ROI prospects are some of the reasons. I’m starting to believe that most aspiring airplane owners nearing retirement (or others working remotely) should consider moving to a location that has nearby hangars already available than waiting for their local airports to come through with new or vacated space.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Can you use a dry system as the secondary or is that a higher cost than the holding tank?


It's honestly ridiculous. Who knew the fire marshal would be the one encouraging or prohibiting development? I get it in high density spaces, but I don't understand commercial, metal buildings that pose no risk to the outside world. I also feel like it should be the homeowners choice (except high density) but I'm just a pilot, not a fire marshal.
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We're still trying to fight it. The newer building built 5 years ago for a boat place didn't have to put them in. But they had a rapport with the previous fire marshal before he retired.
 
Mine doesn’t have sprinklers
 
I don't really get it. If an airport spent, what, $500,000 to build 40 T hangers with nothing but electricity for each one - essentially barn sheds, charged $250 each month, they would recover their costs in 5 years and the rest would be over $100k in rental income each year.

Perhaps the FBO doesn't want the competition? Nor does it see a need to expand itself for more income?
 
WDD said:
I don't really get it. If an airport spent, what, $500,000 to build 40 T hangers with nothing but electricity for each one - essentially barn sheds, charged $250 each month, they would recover their costs in 5 years and the rest would be over $100k in rental income each year.

Perhaps the FBO doesn't want the competition? Nor does it see a need to expand itself for more income?
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Building a hangar with the asphalt required for $12,500 each? I’m happy to pay for a finished project but dealing with contractors is always a nightmare. I would say 40 T hangars would be upwards of 2mil.
 
mandm said:
Building a hangar with the asphalt required for $12,500 each? I’m happy to pay for a finished project but dealing with contractors is always a nightmare. I would say 40 T hangars would be upwards of 2mil.
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One of the big issues seems to be land shortages. Also, all of the ground lease applications want to know “how many jobs you’ll bring to the area” and how much development expertise you have….. then… MAYBE we will bless you with the right to lease .75 acres for 20 years…
 
Figuring a width of 40' minimum for a 'T' hangar you would need a building 1000' long by 60' deep to house 39 small aircraft. I don't think one could build a 20 space 'T' hangar for $500,000 when you factor ground prep/foundation, electrical, metal and doors. I just had a 8,000sqft (24ft walls) light industrial building I own appraised and it would cost over $300K for the metal build without a roll-up door according to the metal structure erector. I would expect a 60,000sqft building with sliding doors and a conventional door per hangar to probably cost near $1M. Still economically viable but with much longer payout on the construction than 5 years.
 
mandm said:
Building a hangar with the asphalt required for $12,500 each? I’m happy to pay for a finished project but dealing with contractors is always a nightmare. I would say 40 T hangars would be upwards of 2mil.
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Wow.
 
What’s the issue with doing a “through the fence” arrangement and purchasing private land adjacent to the airport?

I’ve heard that this is extremely hard. What are the challenges?
 
WDD said:
I don't really get it. If an airport spent, what, $500,000 to build 40 T hangers with nothing but electricity for each one - essentially barn sheds, charged $250 each month, they would recover their costs in 5 years and the rest would be over $100k in rental income each year.

Perhaps the FBO doesn't want the competition? Nor does it see a need to expand itself for more income?
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maybe my math is wrong but that’s like $9sq/ft? I get the airport wouldn’t pay ground lease or property tax but there’s no way you can build anything today for that. I think 40 T hangars would be upwards of $2m, without a sprinkler system.


Part of the problem is city hangars are often stuck in 90s pricing. Old tenants without airplanes keep hangars when they’re cheaper than a storage unit. Go to market rates (what the private sector leases for) and a lot of folks who aren’t using them for airplanes would leave.
 
I pay $200 for a 10 x 10 indoor storage unit. So take rent for a T hangar to $500?
 
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There's a reason why there's no competition to do a job. As a rule, if there's money to be made, there's competition.
 
Z06_Mir said:
... Go to market rates (what the private sector leases for) and a lot of folks who aren’t using them for airplanes would leave.
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Except in areas where storage rents are higher than even the high hangar rents.
 
How did GA ever get started let alone boom in the 70’s and 70’s??
 
In my area, which can't be unique, GA airports that were built out in the middle of nowhere decades ago are now surrounded by cul de sacs and single family homes, some of which contain people who call in each perceived noise ordinance violation and even start petitions to close the airports. I'd imagine that just getting a whiff of whatever permit approvals that are required to build/expand on the property would generate enough steam from the ears of these people to power their McMansions for a year.
 
Local gov't permitting can be expensive - it's one of the hidden reasons for a shortage of lower-cost housing - and even for utility build-outs - one City in MD was basically extorting money for permits to cut streets to drop in fiber underground. They (and the County) then resisted displaying hidden gov't costs on their billing, as well.

If it permitting, impact fees, and approval delays add $30K-$40K to building a house, I imagine a standalone hangar would be be subject to some fraction of that impact, as well.
 
robin ardoin said:
Figuring a width of 40' minimum for a 'T' hangar you would need a building 1000' long by 60' deep to house 39 small aircraft. I don't think one could build a 20 space 'T' hangar for $500,000 when you factor ground prep/foundation, electrical, metal and doors. I just had a 8,000sqft (24ft walls) light industrial building I own appraised and it would cost over $300K for the metal build without a roll-up door according to the metal structure erector. I would expect a 60,000sqft building with sliding doors and a conventional door per hangar to probably cost near $1M. Still economically viable but with much longer payout on the construction than 5 years.
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We're planning on 1 mil for a 9600 SQ foot building. The building itself is in the 300-400k range. 6-14x14 doors. 25' eave height. IMP panels.
 
IK04 said:
I will not live long enough to find hangar space in Texas. The waiting lists will go on to infinity...
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Gate One at SSF is constantly looking for occupants in our community hangar.
 
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