"Hall Monitor" CFI's

N3368K said:
With your own student, I completely understand and have zero issue. That truly IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Otherwise dispensing unsolicited advice to others, not under your tutelage is another matter completely.
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It doesn't happen often but I've asked renters if they've checked weather or check NOTAMs because they were going to try to go somewhere that was either closed or was going to get the crap beat out of them by weather. I've also seen some CFIs who micro manage other renters too and don't trust them. Like I said in my other post, there has to be a good balance of being a concerned instructor and just being annoying and not letting the pilot do his work.
 
N3368K said:
With your own student, I completely understand and have zero issue. That truly IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Otherwise dispensing unsolicited advice to others, not under your tutelage is another matter completely.
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Maybe if the other pilot's actions have no effect on anyone else.

But for a rental, someone else might want to use the airplane afterward.

And none of us like to see unnecessary blood.

It's also arrogant to assume that one's own massive experience makes one a perfect aviator. I may be a 500 hour pilot, but I fly with others with 1/4 my time or less, and I try hard never to dismiss their statements. Someday, one may observe something critical. Hell, when I was a student pilot, the fuel truck driver (not a pilot at all) once saved me from turns around a tiedown. More recently, I witnessed a 2000 hour pilot ruin a prop by clearing plugs right above a set of chocks. I couldn't signal a cutoff to him in time. That airplane is still grounded 300 miles from home.

I sure wish someone had stopped the student pilot who wrecked my discovery flight airplane flying solo in high-wind conditions inconsistent with his solo endorsement, even if they weren't his instructor.
 
For the record, I also don't think it is out of line for a CFI to keep an eye on other instructors solo students, whether at the home field or at away locations. That doesn't include unsolicited lectures, but there is nothing wrong with keeping a student from taking off into a passing thunderstorm or with 20G35 straight across the runway.
 
MadseasoN said:
Dunning-Kruger effect.

People think that because they're skilled or somewhat knowledgeable on a subject that they are skilled at all subjects, and/or that everyone else is less skilled than they are. I think this is human nature to a certain degree. However, social media and the internet has made people think that everyone wants to hear their opinion. That or they're being narcissistic and trying to impress you by how much they "know".

/opinion
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Wow this should be quote of the year on POA. So true.
 
There have been times when I have GREATLY APPRECIATED unsolicited advice. Of course, it's also true that it can be carried too far.
 
MAKG1 said:
I sure wish someone had stopped the student pilot who wrecked my discovery flight airplane flying solo in high-wind conditions inconsistent with his solo endorsement, even if they weren't his instructor.
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Unless at the home drome where CFI knows who the students are, how would one know who to challenge and who to let go? Perhaps CFIs should walk around saying, "Papers, please."

I agree, anyone should speak up if they see something unsafe developing such as taxiing over a chock or about to start/taxi with a control lock on. Even pointing out a still tied down wing... of course, none of those are exclusive to a CFI either.
 
N3368K said:
I think with many folks (not just CFIs) it is the first time in their lives they have had some position of authority or responsibly over another person and they just like their perceived power and authority. Hopefully, it wears off quickly. I try not to kill them too quickly, but if they persist, I tend to give them enough rope...
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I think this morphed from "unsolicited advice" to "control" in the thread, but control issues weren't mentioned at all in the original story.

The only time I've seen rental counter staff act like they wanted to control a flight was when they worked for a boss who treated the handing out of rental keys and books like it was a commercial dispatch operation, and yes, there are clubs and FBOs out there like that. If you go prang their airplane, the manager is going to grill the front desk staff about "Why did you hand that guy/gal the keys?!"

But that wasn't in the original story at all, unless it's how that club works and the OP didn't bother to mention it.

There's a very different vibe between rental places that have someone just handing you the book and keys, and one that "dispatches" their rentals. There's a distinct worry behind that counter that you can see in their face when they hand you the book at the latter if the weather is bad or the aircraft is in any way "iffy" for the mission.

That aside, someone saying you're tackling a harder flight than usual when the weather sucks, who doesn't know who you are or what you know, isn't all that awful in the grand scheme of things.

Being somehow insulted by it is definitely on you and not them. You get to choose what you get ****y about.

If you're feeling curmudgeonly and don't want to talk to anyone when taking the airplane out for a flight, there's always ownership. Nobody in your hangar to bother you that way. LOL.
 
N3368K said:
Unless at the home drome where CFI knows who the students are, how would one know who to challenge and who to let go? Perhaps CFIs should walk around saying, "Papers, please."
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Depends on where you are. Where I learned flying, every airport manager, mechanic and flight instructor knew the trainers from the surrounding airports.
 
denverpilot said:
If you're feeling curmudgeonly and don't want to talk to anyone when taking the airplane out for a flight, there's always ownership. Nobody in your hangar to bother you that way. LOL.
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I do own. More than one. I've still occasionally had the unsolicited advice. I hear about the dangers of hand propping, soft fields (easily identifiable from grass frequently on my tailwheels), short fields and experimentals. Don't get me wrong. I love talking flying to about anyone and I like to learn how to be better. I enjoy learning. I don't, however, understand how someone who knows nothing about my abilities/background feels the need to offer unsolicited advice. Ask me about my plane or flying in general and I'll usually stop and talk...longer than I should. I wish folks would learn how bad I really am before they want to counsel me. :D



weilke said:
Depends on where you are. Where I learned flying, every airport manager, mechanic and flight instructor knew the trainers from the surrounding airports.
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When I flew from a Class D (Pt 121) airport, there wasn't even a school on the field and almost no rentals...never really been exposed to that environment. Other than during a handful of flights during different training, I've not rented much. Mine is mostly small town and private field with the occasional foray in to the big city venues. I grew up on a private field in an ag operation. Only one or two other planes other than dad's so I didn't come up in that kind of environment

I'm not opposed to someone showing a genuine concern about something which is obviously safety related. I don't want to hurt anyone or bend metal and I'll sure watch out to help anyone avoid it. If someone overhears me saying I've flying somewhere and they point out "did you know runway X is closed?" I certainly would appreciate the reminder. On the other hand, if someone says, "The wind is blowing XY knots, are you sure you can handle it?" I'd be wonder why they would feel they know my capabilities/limitations to even ask.
 
N3368K said:
Unless at the home drome where CFI knows who the students are, how would one know who to challenge and who to let go? Perhaps CFIs should walk around saying, "Papers, please."

I agree, anyone should speak up if they see something unsafe developing such as taxiing over a chock or about to start/taxi with a control lock on. Even pointing out a still tied down wing... of course, none of those are exclusive to a CFI either.
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It WAS at the airplane's home 'drome. It was the cheapest on the line and the favorite of students. It was a 152 and was too damn slow for anyone else, and it's well known around the pattern. Anyone seeing a preflight going on with that airplane would have known it was a student going up in 20 knot winds, and since local instructors don't generally give solo endorsements that allow it (as winds that high are not common), it would have been worth a question.

As it was, no one stopped him and he PIO'd his first landing, and smushed the nosegear and the prop into the runway.
 
It's right in the PA-38 type certficate:

The Model PA-38-112 [All Serial Numbers] may be operated with the spinner dome removed, or with the spinner dome and rear bulkhead removed.

Some airplanes require the spinner, some insist that the back plate be removed if the spinner is removed. Others, like the Tomahawk, allow any of these.

 
weilke said:
For the record, I also don't think it is out of line for a CFI to keep an eye on other instructors solo students, whether at the home field or at away locations. That doesn't include unsolicited lectures, but there is nothing wrong with keeping a student from taking off into a passing thunderstorm or with 20G35 straight across the runway.
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20G33 was good student solo weather where I learned to fly. What we didn't do is fly with 5 miles or less visibility. Other parts of the country have exactly the opposite ideas.
 
weilke said:
Isee nothing wrong with a CFI who casually asks whether a renter or transient pilot knows about a TFR that just popped up. The answer to that should be a 'thanks, I saw that', not a rant on the internet.
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This.

Don't be so sensitive. I'd rather somebody give me advice that I don't need than me not to have some bit of info I might've overlooked and get in trouble.

In aviation (and in society) we need to look out for each other.
 
MAKG1 said:
Most of that stuff is just people trying to be helpful, without much success. The busy airport thing can be easily responded to with "I know, I can handle it," for instance.

Calling the FBO is a bit odd, though. I witnessed a really bad soft field takeoff yesterday -- a Cirrus SR22 attempted one in a 15-20 knot wind with some gusts, 20 deg right of runway heading. I think he kept the yoke on the right stop until after he broke ground, 'cause he rolled far enough into the wind that it looked like he might strike a wingtip, and he popped it off REAL early, I think clean (do you do soft fields on an SR22 clean?), and lost some altitude right afterward. And then he flew off. It was witnessed by at least 20 people, but to my knowledge, none of them called anyone. My own thought is that the pilot needs new underwear and will not do that again.
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When I see stuff like that I get excited. It's like nascar. Everybody is just waiting for the crash.
 
If I wanted to inquire about your flight plans I'd at least make it come across differently. :D

"So where you off to today?"
"Sounds fun, I hope the weather clears up for the both of us"
 
A head up about a cell or a TFR is cool, he you see that TFR/cell over XYZ, that's nice to hear as a student or an ATP :)
 
Fortunately when I do stuff that's "questionable", the weather is too crappy for 'em to walk out onto the ramp and talk to me. :D
 
N3368K said:
When I flew from a Class D (Pt 121) airport, there wasn't even a school on the field and almost no rentals...never really been exposed to that environment. Other than during a handful of flights during different training, I've not rented much. Mine is mostly small town and private field with the occasional foray in to the big city venues. I grew up on a private field in an ag operation. Only one or two other planes other than dad's so I didn't come up in that kind of environment
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It sounds like you grew up rather independent and learned to fly that way also.

Remember the younger crowd wasn't even allowed to walk alone to the city park, and everything they've done is a team sport or team activity with plenty of positive reinforcement and participation awards for showing up in mom's mini-Van.

I'm not saying that to knock it, although I do have opinions about that... But my point is, they do everything together. It's all one big happy team, win or lose.

They aren't so much questioning your abilities as they are just deeply different in their thought patterns about activities with others.

Of course they're adults now and on their own and they've figured out for the most part that there's nobody to schedule their activities and take them there, they can go walk to the park after dark and nobody is going to stop them, and all that -- but they built a different interpersonal dynamic in their formative years.

It's very "collective" for lack of a better word.

(It may also be why a recent study out of Harvard says they all say they like "communism" but when pressed, they don't actually know what communism actually is, and the things they enjoy largely center around stuff capitalism affords them. Fascinating stuff really. I point this out as supporting and extending the above thought and one can go look up the report and read it. Not as banned political commentary under our censors here. Ha.)

flyingron said:
20G33 was good student solo weather where I learned to fly. What we didn't do is fly with 5 miles or less visibility. Other parts of the country have exactly the opposite ideas.
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Cheyenne?
 
Palmpilot said:
I believe the appropriate reference is the equipment list in the POH. For example, the C182Q POH says the spinner installation is a required item. (I have no idea what the POH of a Tomahawk says.)
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And honestly, I truly didn't care, either.
 
denverpilot said:
everything they've done is a team sport or team activity with plenty of positive reinforcement and participation awards for showing up in mom's mini-Van.
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This is the second comment in here about the "younger generation" and participation awards. I used to get those (my soccer team was bad, REAL bad, like Bad News Bears BAD), and I HATED them. I didn't want them, I didn't want them displayed in my room. Nobody wanted them. And it sure didn't make me a ****ty or lazy person.

Also, how else do kids pre-driver's license show up to team sports, but in their mom's mini-van? How'd you do it back in the day? Barefoot, uphill, in the snow? And even if you won, you didn't get a trophy, you got a punch in the face, and YOU LIKED IT, DAMMIT? :p
 
onezuludelta said:
This is the second comment in here about the "younger generation" and participation awards. I used to get those (my soccer team was bad, REAL bad, like Bad News Bears BAD), and I HATED them. I didn't want them, I didn't want them displayed in my room. Nobody wanted them. And it sure didn't make me a ****ty or lazy person.

Also, how else do kids pre-driver's license show up to team sports, but in their mom's mini-van? How'd you do it back in the day? Barefoot, uphill, in the snow? And even if you won, you didn't get a trophy, you got a punch in the face, and YOU LIKED IT, DAMMIT? :p
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Back in the day:p, you didn't have the travel teams and regional stuff you have today. Your team (baseball, etc) practiced down the street and we walked or biked there. Somehow that would be child endangerment these days. (Now, get off my lawn! :))
 
Sam D said:
Back in the day:p, you didn't have the travel teams and regional stuff you have today. Your team (baseball, etc) practiced down the street and we walked or biked there. Somehow that would be child endangerment these days. (Now, get off my lawn! :))
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We always rode our bikes, usually a bunch of us together to the games and practice. Now days we wouldn't be allowed ot because in that town, now if you are in a group of more than three, you are considered a "gang" and would be dealt with by the PoPo!
 
Eh. CFI's or their equivalent that are like this have been around since the dawn of aviation.

It's the old timers on the couch that peer above the newspaper when you're about to do something stupid that you probably want to listen to....

Richman
 
Sam D said:
Back in the day:p, you didn't have the travel teams and regional stuff you have today. Your team (baseball, etc) practiced down the street and we walked or biked there. Somehow that would be child endangerment these days. (Now, get off my lawn! :))
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When I was a kid in the 60s, we rode our bikes to where we needed to go. After baseball practice, the coach would load our bikes and us kids in the back of his old Studebaker truck and take us home.

I rode my bike everywhere. It was 5.1 miles out to where we had our horses, and in the summer I rode there and back every day. Not one of these nice riding bikes that are common today, but an old Schwinn that I had put a banana seat on it and high rise handle bars, that I had bought myself with my paper route money.

I used to think I had a rough childhood until I remember that my dad grew up during the depression, then graduated high school and went straight into WWII. I would love to be able to live in an area where in the summer the kids could leave the house right after breakfast and not have to get home until right before the street lights came on, and no one worried about them.

(sorry for the thread drift)
 
onezuludelta said:
This is the second comment in here about the "younger generation" and participation awards. I used to get those (my soccer team was bad, REAL bad, like Bad News Bears BAD), and I HATED them. I didn't want them, I didn't want them displayed in my room. Nobody wanted them. And it sure didn't make me a ****ty or lazy person.

Also, how else do kids pre-driver's license show up to team sports, but in their mom's mini-van? How'd you do it back in the day? Barefoot, uphill, in the snow? And even if you won, you didn't get a trophy, you got a punch in the face, and YOU LIKED IT, DAMMIT? :p
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Haha others have answered the transport question...

I didn't say everyone younger LIKED the participation awards... Don't get too wound up about it. Some saw through it.

But I've met some who didn't... They're "interesting"... Haha. No worries. :)

It's just a theory on why folks would behave in a way that the person complaining might find "odd".
 
I've only seen the CFIs in my area intervene on stupidly obvious situations like an overloaded aircraft. There are things unique to our area besides mountains, and DA including high winds and border issues. One of the CFIs at another field told me of a transient attempting to land in one of our worst high wind dust storms. Visibility so bad he couldn't locate the runway. CFI got on CTAF and told the transient that the Class C El Paso airport was just a few miles away and also gave terrain warnings. Area was IFR due to dust. Transient wasn't rated and would not fly to the Class C. He did make it down eventually with tanks running on fumes. The CFI told me the wife refused to fly with him again and booked a commercial flight home.
 
FlySince9 said:
that's why you hang out on POA... no know-it-alls on here, right?
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The difference is that this is a discussion forum where everyone is expected to post their opinion. I'd like to walk around in public for at least one day without hearing unsolicited opinions.
 
danhagan said:
The CFI told me the wife refused to fly with him again and booked a commercial flight home.
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And that is why my wife will still fly with me. Conservative weather decisions. We're driving across the state tomorrow because of the forecast on Weather.com. Something about TS in the area during the time we were planning on departing just doesn't make it, for either of us. IR or no IR, flying in the area of forecast TS is just not a good thing to do.
 
Ghery said:
IR or no IR, flying in the area of forecast TS is just not a good thing to do.
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I applaud your judgement and decision, nothing wrong with it. However, often actual T storms are easy to get around (scattered/isolated) and often a forecast for TSMs never develops, especially here in the south. During the summer months here TSMs are usually forecasted every day. We'd never fly if we went 100% by their forecast. I think it's a liability deal where the forecasters give the worst possible scenario. Again nothing wrong with your decision and I am not criticizing it.
 
mscard88 said:
I applaud your judgement and decision, nothing wrong with it. However, often actual T storms are easy to get around (scattered/isolated) and often a forecast for TSMs never develops, especially here in the south. During the summer months here TSMs are usually forecasted every day. We'd never fly if we went 100% by their forecast. I think it's a liability deal where the forecasters give the worst possible scenario. Again nothing wrong with your decision and I am not criticizing it.
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When Tstorms are forecast and there are significant cloud layers around, I stay visual to dodge the build ups. Stumbling into one in IMC would be bad . . . The StormScope helps, too.
 
As one poster has already pointed out, a lot of concern comes from still having a rental to fly at the end of the day.
 
All this talk has reminded me of the obligatory video: (Pay close attention to the comments about "flight instructors" please)

 
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