"Hall Monitor" CFI's

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canav08

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canav08
Anyone else find alot of this? I hate to post a whiny rant about it but its happening almost every time I fly. I'm a part time CFII/MEI for one flight school and rent from a few others from time to time. The school I teach for knows me and does not give me any trouble but everywhere else I go, I'm seeing more and more 21 year old flight instructors with 250 hrs and wet CFI ratings who just have to interject their opinions on absolutely everything.

A few weekends ago I'm renting a C172 for a 250 NM trip and get the run around from some CFI kid sitting at the computer with nothing to do: "You do know the field is IFR, RIGHT?!?! You know about this TFR don't you?!?! Id be careful going up to [airport with 9,000' runways], its not for the faint of heart!!!"

A few days ago I took a friend from work and his young kids flying, had breakfast at a local airport with a few flight schools on it. Young girl asks to fly the plane so I said sure, you can "takeoff", by takeoff I actually mean help me take off. Some CFI calls my home flight school to report an erratic plane taking off. I was letting the girl get a feel for taking off and was not correcting everything she did unless we were going too low or going to stall so it did not look pretty but certainly not unsafe on a 8,500' runway in a C182. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it on not being unsafe, id like to think that as a CFI with plenty of dual given and a past life as a pilot and later instructor in the .mil world that I have an idea of what is safe and what is not and will act accordingly on the controls.

I dont get it. Has it always been this bad? Do others have similar experiences? These guys all seem arrogant as heck and out to prove themselves and I don't know why. If aviation does not humble you, I dont know what will. I'm not into telling these kids all about myself and my past because on the surface I dont seem much older (29) then them and I feel like a "resume competition" is what they want with most people because they believe theirs is superior. I'm not really about telling people "ive done/do this, I have this and that rating and these many hours". At the end of the day we are all just trying to better ourselves in aviation, keep learning and teaching others. I'm no stranger to the fact that we can be an arrogant lot as pilots but I dont get the constant need for some to berate others having no clue who they are talking to.

/END RANT
 
Dunning-Kruger effect.

People think that because they're skilled or somewhat knowledgeable on a subject that they are skilled at all subjects, and/or that everyone else is less skilled than they are. I think this is human nature to a certain degree. However, social media and the internet has made people think that everyone wants to hear their opinion. That or they're being narcissistic and trying to impress you by how much they "know".

/opinion
 
Those types usually have inferiority complexes, in the dozens! I'd go back and slap the little ******* just to watch 'em cry. But, then they'd probably file assault charges against you.
 
canav08 said:
I dont get it. Has it always been this bad? Do others have similar experiences? These guys all seem arrogant as heck and out to prove themselves and I don't know why.
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Do you not feel that your post comes off as being arrogant and that you're better and so much more experienced than the people you're talking bad about?

That said, the guys you're talking about are probably feeling somewhat insecure due to their lack of experience despite having some advanced ratings. Also, some of the instructors may be genuinely trying to help (such as mentioning the TFRs and weather, etc.) but are going about it the wrong way or you're taking it the wrong way. I know local pilots around here that I probably sound like a nanny to, because they need it (due to a lack of good judgment and ADM), and I'd rather tell them about it than have them kill themselves because they pushed things too far.
 
mondtster said:
Do you not feel that your post comes off as being arrogant and that you're better and so much more experienced than the people you're talking bad about?
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Nah, not really, I said I'm really not interested in comparing resumes and experience. I think we all know what this game is like or should. There is always gonna be someone "better" than you and if you think you are cool there is someone cooler.
 
Having worked line service and watching many instructors come and go. I know where you're coming from.
 
As long as what you're doing is legal and professional, tell them to f.. off. you shouldn't have to interact with retards..
 
Meh, whatever, the only thing I'd take issue with is calling the home rental place, that's going too far.

Think these guys are like that because they don't have anyone above them to look up to, top CFI is probably only 6 months or a year more experienced than the newest guy. I'm sure if you put them into a 135 in AK as fresh meat they would get humble quick.

Easy to feel like the top dog when the majority of "aviation" folks you spend time with are asking you questions and believe you know all the answers
 
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In my experience, the most arrogant, pain-in-the-ass instructors like the ones you describe come from university flight programs or other very formal "pilot mills." Those environments, especially the university ones, tend to breed a very competitive atmosphere and lots of one-upping.
 
bradg33 said:
In my experience, the most arrogant, pain-in-the-ass instructors like the ones you describe come from university flight programs or other very formal "pilot mills." Those environments, especially the university ones, tend to breed a very competitive atmosphere and lots of one-upping.
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:yes:
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yes. They are everywhere. Have been for a long time.
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Ego trippers.........they are everywhere in every industry. More prevalent than ever because everyone is so preoccupied about being PC and afraid to put them in their place which perpetuates the problem.
 
A classic response, " Huh, I had not thought in my 41 years of flying of that being a problem."

Many times these young "diploma mill" instructors do not realize the experience level of the pilot, or even realize that they are talking to an experienced instructor.

I went "back home" one summer and back to the old FBO to rent a plane. The resident DPE in the school was a student when I was there many many many years before. We chatted and then she said, for insurance, we need to do a checkout, it's been a few years, and she assigned one of her young instructors to the task.

So off we go, and upon returning to the school the DPE asks, how did it go? The young CFI starts to respond and she cuts him off, and she asks me directly, how did he do? Nodding toward the young CFI. "Oh, he did fine, covered all the points, a little anal on a couple of things, but he'll be ok." And the DPE chuckles.

At this point the young CFI realizes he's been had, I opened up my logbook to 20+ years earlier and showed him the same N-numbers in my book that were still on the flight line.
 
I had a TraumaHawk out for fun late in the last century; the FBO that owned three of them had the spinners off, for convenience, whatever. Landed out to pee and fuel, and a guy started a lecture on how it was "illegal" to operate without the spinner, etc. I told him it flew fine without it, didn't appear to affect temps, etc. He persisted to the point of getting motional, until I bluntly told him "Legal, illegal, I really don't care. If it matters that much to you, call the Feds."
 
Sundancer said:
I had a TraumaHawk out for fun late in the last century; the FBO that owned three of them had the spinners off, for convenience, whatever. Landed out to pee and fuel, and a guy started a lecture on how it was "illegal" to operate without the spinner, etc. I told him it flew fine without it, didn't appear to affect temps, etc. He persisted to the point of getting motional, until I bluntly told him "Legal, illegal, I really don't care. If it matters that much to you, call the Feds."
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I've always found that "show me the reg" usually ends the discussion pretty quickly. ;)
 
My dad was an RCAF pilot in the late50s. He got back into flying in 1972/73. He always chuckled when he told me the first flight back of a young CFI who walked him up to a Cherokee and proudly exclaimed...this is an airplane.
 
Just eager beavers with backgrounds that started with participation awards for everything.

They mellow out if you lock eyes with them and raise an eyebrow and wait. If they really won't shut up, a well timed, "Do I know you?" usually works.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I've always found that "show me the reg" usually ends the discussion pretty quickly. ;)
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I believe the appropriate reference is the equipment list in the POH. For example, the C182Q POH says the spinner installation is a required item. (I have no idea what the POH of a Tomahawk says.)
 
BillTIZ said:
So off we go, and upon returning to the school the DPE asks, how did it go? The young CFI starts to respond and she cuts him off, and she asks me directly, how did he do? Nodding toward the young CFI. "Oh, he did fine, covered all the points, a little anal on a couple of things, but he'll be ok." And the DPE chuckles.

At this point the young CFI realizes he's been had, I opened up my logbook to 20+ years earlier and showed him the same N-numbers in my book that were still on the flight line.
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I'm sure you weren't trying to be facetious with the CFI, but for a DPE to intentionally diminish the work of her employee -- work that she assigned him to do, no less -- is simply indicative of a bad working environment. Having been a CFI at an FBO where we routinely did checkouts for people of all ages and experience levels, and currency flights in customer-owned aircraft, I have seen a lot of marginal performances by experienced pilots. There is no level of experience that justifies a free pass on a checkout, and no level of experience worthy of a free pass on legitimate critique. If she was concerned that the CFI might not be up to par, she shouldn't have hired him.
 
Yeah, as a new instructor I had the pleasure of checking out someone that wanted to rent the flight school C-182.

This person flew fighters in Korea and bombers in Vietnam, owned a flight school for many years and retired from the FAA.

He patiently listened to me, studied up on what he needed to learn, and then flew the maneuvers I thought he should do to satisfy the insurance requirement.

What could he have have possibly learned from me?

I was totally intimidated by his flight experience, but he patiently listened to me and did what he could to ease my fears.
 
When I was a new CFI, I gave a check out in a Warrior to a Delta pilot. We both learned from each other that check out and he was a really humble guy that still wanted to learn. No matter what your experience level is, there's always something to learn.
 
MadseasoN said:
Dunning-Kruger effect.

People think that because they're skilled or somewhat knowledgeable on a subject that they are skilled at all subjects, and/or that everyone else is less skilled than they are. I think this is human nature to a certain degree. However, social media and the internet has made people think that everyone wants to hear their opinion. That or they're being narcissistic and trying to impress you by how much they "know".

/opinion
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Also known as the "New Jersey Effect" as it describes the majority of that states population ! Ride a PATH train sometime you'll see !
 
Years ago I had around 10-15 ME students that were all Instructor Pilots in T37s and T38s at the base as students. They were separating from the Air Force and using the GI Bill to get their ME rating as their certificates were center line thrust limited and they needed the ME rating for the airlines they all were hoping to get on with. I was a little intimidated (partially because I was enlisted & they officers) but they were all great guys and flew very well. It was fun and enjoyable.
 
Palmpilot said:
I believe the appropriate reference is the equipment list in the POH. For example, the C182Q POH says the spinner installation is a required item. (I have no idea what the POH of a Tomahawk says.)
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"Show me the reference" works, too, but it's not excessively monosyllabic enough for a lot of 'em. ;)
 
It's not just the young CFIs that do this. We had a "seasoned" CFI yelling at another CFI (in front of his student) that you should never do a mid-field takeoff. "Always take the time to taxi to the end. You never know when you'll need the extra runway."
"OK, point taken but how do you explain the touch and go you just did with your student where you weren't "going" until well past the mid-point."

Some CFIs just HAVE to add their 2 cents to the situation. (Age or experience not withstanding)
 
upstateny said:
It's not just the young CFIs that do this. We had a "seasoned" CFI yelling at another CFI (in front of his student) that you should never do a mid-field takeoff. "Always take the time to taxi to the end. You never know when you'll need the extra runway."
"OK, point taken but how do you explain the touch and go you just did with your student where you weren't "going" until well past the mid-point."

Some CFIs just HAVE to add their 2 cents to the situation. (Age or experience not withstanding)
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This would be the type that will taxi to the start of a 10,000' runway, and not taxi above the speed of a "brisk walk"

....I know the type.

Always wondered the chit they talk about me, when they are taxiing to the very start of a HUUUGE towered airports runway in their 172 with a student, all strapped up with knee boards and iPads, and I take a mid field departure in a large turboprop.
 
Most of that stuff is just people trying to be helpful, without much success. The busy airport thing can be easily responded to with "I know, I can handle it," for instance.

Calling the FBO is a bit odd, though. I witnessed a really bad soft field takeoff yesterday -- a Cirrus SR22 attempted one in a 15-20 knot wind with some gusts, 20 deg right of runway heading. I think he kept the yoke on the right stop until after he broke ground, 'cause he rolled far enough into the wind that it looked like he might strike a wingtip, and he popped it off REAL early, I think clean (do you do soft fields on an SR22 clean?), and lost some altitude right afterward. And then he flew off. It was witnessed by at least 20 people, but to my knowledge, none of them called anyone. My own thought is that the pilot needs new underwear and will not do that again.
 
Another take...

When asked for free legal advice, my dad would say "A lawyer's advice is his stock in trade".*

Flight instructors spend most of their time teaching and then critiquing student performance. It becomes a default mental state and one that's very hard to turn off.

I don't see unsolicited advice as necessarily arrogant or ego-driven - it's just what flight instructors do. But to be fair, at the moment it's apparent the advice is unwanted, that should be the end of it. I think of Emily Litella saying "Never mind!"


*I just Googled it and the full quote is apparently "A lawyer's time and advice is his stock and trade." and seems to be attributed to Abraham Lincoln.
 
BillTIZ said:
I went "back home" one summer and back to the old FBO to rent a plane. The resident DPE in the school was a student when I was there many many many years before. We chatted and then she said, for insurance, we need to do a checkout, it's been a few years, and she assigned one of her young instructors to the task.
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Every rental checkout I have ever done started with a 'so what's your flying experience, how many hours in a 172/182/Archer, do you know your way around here etc.' discussion. Seems odd that an instructor wouldn't at least get the basics before they hop in the plane with you.
 
I think with many folks (not just CFIs) it is the first time in their lives they have had some position of authority or responsibly over another person and they just like their perceived power and authority. Hopefully, it wears off quickly. I try not to kill them too quickly, but if they persist, I tend to give them enough rope...
 
N3368K said:
I think with many folks (not just CFIs) it is the first time in their lives they have had some position of authority or responsibly over another person and they just like their perceived power and authority. Hopefully, it wears off quickly. I try not to kill them too quickly, but if they persist, I tend to give them enough rope...
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Or they are just trying to keep it safe because their ticket could be on the line. I was 21 when I got my CFI and was sweating bullets when I signed off my first student to solo. I must have asked him a million times if he's checked the weather, did weight and balance, performance, checked NOTAMs, etc. I didn't ask him because I wanted to be a nuisance. I just wanted him to be safe. God forbid, something happened on his solo, the FAA would be asking me questions. There has to be a good balance.
 
jordane93 said:
Or they are just trying to keep it safe because their ticket could be on the line. I was 21 when I got my CFI and was sweating bullets when I signed off my first student to solo. I must have asked him a million times if he's checked the weather, did weight and balance, performance, checked NOTAMs, etc. I didn't ask him because I wanted to be a nuisance. I just wanted him to be safe. God forbid, something happened on his solo, the FAA would be asking me questions.
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I think his point is not about CFIs being anal and controlling with their students. His point is CFIs who dispense aeronautical supervision to people they are not responsible for.

That said. I see nothing wrong with a CFI who casually asks whether a renter or transient pilot knows about a TFR that just popped up. The answer to that should be a 'thanks, I saw that', not a rant on the internet.
 
jordane93 said:
Or they are just trying to keep it safe because their ticket could be on the line. I was 21 when I got my CFI and was sweating bullets when I signed off my first student to solo. I must have asked him a million times if he's checked the weather, did weight and balance, performance, checked NOTAMs, etc. I didn't ask him because I wanted to be a nuisance. I just wanted him to be safe. God forbid, something happened on his solo, the FAA would be asking me questions. There has to be a good balance.
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With your own student, I completely understand and have zero issue. That truly IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Otherwise dispensing unsolicited advice to others, not under your tutelage is another matter completely.
 
So far I've been lucky to encounter only good/nice CFI(I)s that weren't out to prove themselves. They taught because they love it.
But I sure know there are many out there who have arrogance oozing out of every orifice in their body. I agree that it comes with the profession. They tell us that as pilots, we are even rarer than surgeons and that we should be proud. Some of us let it get into our heads. :D

If a kid was harassing me like that (in the original post), I'd probably ask him politely whether he has soloed yet. If he proclaims to be a CFI, I'd probably throw more fuel on the fire with a simple "Are you sure?" :D
But I don't care, he can talk his head off. Heck, he might have a useful piece of information.
 
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