Half of US meat...

This is why you cook it and don't eat chicken tartare. I eat a ton of meat a year (ok, maybe not literally) and I have yet to get sick from it. E Coli is found on vegetables quite often (perhaps even more often than meat). It's why you wash your greens.
 
steingar said:
...infected with Staphylococcus aureus, a potentially pathogenic bacteria. Thank Odin I'm a vegetarian.
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"But, so far, no one has been able to draw a connection between the presence of those bacteria in meats and human illness."

I'm probably jaded, but I usually have lots of doubts when claims are made about something that is "potentially" harmful to <whatever>.

The MRSA comment at the end of a referenced link concerned me more.
 
Just eat Taco Bell. That's only half meat, so you're only a quarter as likely to get a tainted product.
 
OMG! "Potentially pathogenic?" I must start eating like a cow, or a rabbit!
But then again, food poisoning usually affects those individuals in "high risk" groups... like the very young or old, or those with HIV or some other disease that weakens the immune system. So, if you have HIV, then maybe think twice before the steak tartare.
The only decent reason to be a vegetarian is an ethical one. All of the health reasons are totally overblown, and most are morality-driven mythology/propaganda. As far as the food poisoning claims go, does it make sense that meat would be any riskier than, say, organic leafy greens and bean sprouts? (Which are uncooked, and often grown in cow dung.)
Please. Maybe you need to read scare stats about meat to reinforce your ethical decision to abstain from the pleasures of delicious meats, but the rest of us eat enough rare meat without any ill effect to know better.
 
tonycondon said:
thank goodness for fire
Click to expand...
Shhhh! Don't let them in on our secrets of safe food preparation!
Any more public disclosure of the solemn and sacred rituals in this forum and I will report you to the Council!
 
steingar said:
Complete and udder bovine scrotum.
Click to expand...

Speaking of bovines: they, unlike humans, are able to digest cellulose (although technically they rely on symbiotic bacteria in their intestinal tract to produce the needed enzymes.)

So what? Well, west of the about the 98 degrees West Longitude in the U.S. there isn't quite enough precipitation to support growing much food that is directly digestible by humans. But the area has native plant material well adapted to that environment that, while inedible to humans, is suitable for grazing cattle. So cattle ranching in those areas actually makes land productive that would otherwise be of marginal utility. The cattle could be thought of as roaming self-powered factories that convert inedible "woody" plant material into juicy and tasty heart-attack inducing steaks. :wink2:

(All the above is from material I've read elsewhere and could contain factual errors. But it sounds plausible enough to me to be worth posting.)
 
Telemakhos said:
... The only decent reason to be a vegetarian is an ethical one...
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The reasons typically line up into categories: ethics, health, environment, and religion. Three out of four are pretty valid, IMHO.

But a vegetarian diet is no guarantee of protection from food poisoning.
All of the health reasons are totally overblown, and most are morality-driven mythology/propaganda.
Click to expand...
There's plenty of vegetarian propaganda, but there's also plenty of anti-vegetarian propaganda. Some people get their panties in a wad over the idea that somebody else doesn't eat meat. Doesn't make any sense to me, I don't know why anybody would care what I eat.

I'd say that a "some meat, not so much" diet can be perfectly healthy. But that's not a typical modern American diet, which is "meat at every meal, preferably fried and smothered in gravy".
-harry
 
There's lots of non-meat foods that are delicious. I could survive without meat. I don't think I could be a vegan though.

Also, I could care less what personal choices people make as long as it doesn't adversely impact me.

As far as bacteria on meat...big deal. That's why we cook meat.
 
I dont want to alarm anyone here but there is infact... wait for it








Bacteria EVERYWHERE :hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::cryin::cryin::cryin::incazzato:
 
People who close airstrips in Oregon are vegeterians. As an aviator, I cannot buddy with those people.
 
As seen on the bumper of my old F-250...

37644710v7_480x480_Front.jpg
 
Doggtyred said:
Infected?? really... "Infected" is misleading.... I wonder what else the author is misleading about.
Click to expand...

Click on that link and guess what? It's the NEWS. Their sole job is to create panic, fear and depression by whatever means is necessary no matter how badly they have to blow things out of proportion or flat out lie to get it there.

The format of the article is interesting that I've never seen before. A few vague one and two sentence paragraphs followed by a question to answer whether or not their goal of scaring you with the article was effective or not. I wonder if the article writers have to go to remedial news training if they don't scare enough people by their article?


Vegetarians = poor hunters.
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:lol:
If animals really didn't want to get eaten, they wouldn't have been made out of food.
 
I think the makers of Purel and other "anti-bacterial" stuff made all this up to sell more. We have "anti-bacterial" toys because babies stick everything in their mouths. We have handcream (to the point my office now has dispensers on every floor and in every bathroom). Kitchen and bath wipes, clothing, bed sheets.... Good grief!
Are we all that paranoid? And what's new here? I'd guess bacteria has been around for millions of years and with few exceptions, we haven't had a mass die-off.
You'll get over it.
 
Telemakhos said:
...At least I wrote that the ethical objector reason was a decent one. I'm trying to play nice here! :D
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Ehhh.. I'm not sure about ethical reasoning either. I have come across those who take that into interesting, and pretty much insane, lines of reasoning such as "If I don't kill to eat then I will not die"... seriously.... I explain to them that in order to be immortal they actually have to become breatharians plus they had to study levitation so they did not step on the ground. I suggest starting with a 10 day Vipassna retreat.
 
fgcason said:
If animals really didn't want to get eaten, they wouldn't have been made out of food.
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My sig for a time was "If God didn't want us to eat animals, why'd He make them out of meat?"

Seriously, Staph A. is everywhere (as with trillions of other bacteria). That's why we have immune systems.
The only meat you'll find without it is that which has been sealed and irradiated.
 
silver-eagle said:
We have handcream (to the point my office now has dispensers on every floor and in every bathroom).
Click to expand...

That's actually a good thing. The low flow toilets and urinals, together with low flow faucets on sinks, are actually making good sanitation more difficult less effective.
Ironic, huh?
 
silver-eagle said:
I think the makers of Purel and other "anti-bacterial" stuff made all this up to sell more. We have "anti-bacterial" toys because babies stick everything in their mouths. We have handcream (to the point my office now has dispensers on every floor and in every bathroom). Kitchen and bath wipes, clothing, bed sheets.... Good grief!
Are we all that paranoid? And what's new here? I'd guess bacteria has been around for millions of years and with few exceptions, we haven't had a mass die-off.
You'll get over it.
Click to expand...

That purel and antibacterial soaps make the skin on my hands crack and peel off. I kept wondering why my hands are a cracked peeling mess until I realized it was from the antibacterial soap in public restrooms. I'm almost at the point of taking my own regular soap with me. I think people go overboard with the antibacterial stuff.
 
PilotAlan said:
Seriously, Staph A. is everywhere (as with trillions of other bacteria). That's why we have immune systems.
The only meat you'll find without it is that which has been sealed and irradiated.
Click to expand...

New Marketing for "Kobe Beef"!

Too soon?
 
Henning said:
Ehhh.. I'm not sure about ethical reasoning either. I have come across those who take that into interesting, and pretty much insane, lines of reasoning such as "If I don't kill to eat then I will not die"...
Click to expand...
You can take any idea and contrive an insane extremist version of it.

I don't think it takes all that much imagination to see that there are ethical issues with how meat is commercially produced.
-harry
 
Doggtyred said:
Infected?? really... "Infected" is misleading.... I wonder what else the author is misleading about.
Click to expand...

The process of infection involves introducing microorganisms or viruses into a naive environment. Meat does not normally contain any bacteria whatsoever. None. If it did that would suggest the providing animal died of septic shock, and I doubt the resulting flesh would be very good for you. Thus it was the correct descriptor.

That a substantial fraction of US beef supply is contaminated (if you prefer that better) with a pathogenic enterotoxic bacterium suggests that it is very poorly processed. Staph infections are really quite common. If you handle infected meat and have any kind of skin lesion, like a cut, you can get a localized painful infection. If you ingest it you can contract flu-like symptoms. I'll bet such symptoms have existed in most of of the members of our community at some point in the recent past. And are you that certain that you rare steak has been sufficiently cooked to kill all the contaminating microorganisms?

Those suggesting that vegetarians are in the same boat because of microbial flora are entirely mistaken. The microorganisms that occur in meat do so because they eat meat. Lat time I checked, you were all substantially made out of meat.

The microorganisms that normally occur on vegetation are far safer, as they normally eat vegetables, and as I said, we're made of meat. However, vegetables can have contaminating microorganisms introduced in processing, which is why we wash fresh vegetables if we're not going to thoroughly cook them.

Those saying that a vegetarian diet has no health benefits are, well, mistaken.
 
This might be splitting hairs but the meat mentioned in the article is contaminated, not infected. For infection to exist the microorganism has to invade the critter (or plant) prior to death. Bacteria exists (usually harmlessly) on the skin and inside the gut of all animals, this is known as colonization. When certain organisms breach normal defenses (prior to death) and start reproducing you get an infection. Every time you brush your teeth a few bacteria will enter your bloodstream but this rarely causes infection if your immune system is working properly.
Some organisms are harmless to people with a normal immune system while other varieties are more likely to cause disease. There are many different forms of e. coli and s. aureus, some are bad and others relatively harmless. Some bugs are almost always bad.
Irrational fear of microorganisms has been cultivated by companies that make chemical disinfectants. Although disinfectants can be very useful, the in-discriminant use in the household setting may lead to superbugs that are effectively resistant. I am also concerned about the routine use of antibiotics in animal feed. Wanna hear something really scary? The excessive use of antibiotics in humans has already resulted in bacteria that are resistant to all known antibiotics. We are at risk for re-entering the pre-antibiotic era where people died of infections that are currently easily treatable.
 
steingar said:
The microorganisms that normally occur on vegetation are far safer, as they normally eat vegetables, and as I said, we're made of meat. However, vegetables can have contaminating microorganisms introduced in processing, which is why we wash fresh vegetables if we're not going to thoroughly cook them.
Click to expand...
True. When vegetables cause illness they are usually contaminated with bacteria from animal sources.

steingar said:
Those saying that a vegetarian diet has no health benefits are, well, mistaken.
Click to expand...
Yes and no. I can create a very unhealthful diet from vegetarian sources. I believe that table sugar is derived from plants and this stuff can be more harmful than lean meat. I often recommend a modified vegetarian (pescetarian) diet that includes fish for those with coronary artery disease. I am addicted to meat. I tried the vegetarian thing for a few years and it did not help my cholesterol levels. For me life would not be the same without good Southern bar-be-que or a well prepared steak.
 
Gary F said:
... Yes and no. I can create a very unhealthful diet from vegetarian sources...
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Sure, a nice plate of veggies with a little fish is going to be more healthy than a bucket of organically produced vegan-prepared french fries. You can always take a good thing and screw it up.
-harry
 
Gary F said:
Yes and no. I can create a very unhealthful diet from vegetarian sources.

Sure, but it is far easier to create an unhealthful diet from meat and potatoes. Using even a modicum of common sense, you can create a vegetarian diet far lower in fat and simple carbohydrate than that consumed by most Americans.

Gary F said:
I tried the vegetarian thing for a few years and it did not help my cholesterol levels. For me life would not be the same without good Southern bar-be-que or a well prepared steak.
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Like Mrs. Steingar, your cholesterolemia is likely genetic in origin, the manifestation of an inborn metabolic imbalance. Thus you require medication to correct it.

A vegetarian diet might not have lowered your cholesterol, but it is likely to help you lower your weight. Most of the food I cook is nearly devoid of fat, unless I go on my once yearly frying binge.
Click to expand...
 
steingar said:
A vegetarian diet might not have lowered your cholesterol, but it is likely to help you lower your weight. Most of the food I cook is nearly devoid of fat, unless I go on my once yearly frying binge.
Click to expand...

If I lowered my weight anymore I would be unhealthy, and there is no way I am ever going to find 30/36 jeans.
 
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steingar said:
Gary F said:
Yes and no. I can create a very unhealthful diet from vegetarian sources.
Click to expand...

Sure, but it is far easier to create an unhealthful diet from meat and potatoes. Using even a modicum of common sense, you can create a vegetarian diet far lower in fat and simple carbohydrate than that consumed by most Americans.
Click to expand...
I agree that a vegan or pescetarian diet can be more healthful for most people than one that contains meat although I do not believe that the moderate consumption of lean meat is as harmful as you apparently believe. I do not agree with the belief that a vegan diet is necessarily more healthful. At least vegans are much less likely to ever contract prion disease. Prions are not killed by cooking and prion disease has a long incubation period. The good news is that there is no evidence of an epidemic of prion diseases in humans as far as anybody can tell. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/prions/
steingar said:
Like Mrs. Steingar, your cholesterolemia is likely genetic in origin, the manifestation of an inborn metabolic imbalance. Thus you require medication to correct it.
Click to expand...
Genetics is important but the majority of the blame is on diet. I can easily devise a diet that would correct most peoples dyslipidemia (cholesterol) problems and lower the risk for many diseases and increase longevity. Studies have shown that if you feed rats 30% fewer calories than their ad lib consumption you can increase lifespan significantly. The problem is adhering to an ideal diet. We could test it out on prisoners but they would probably riot and the ACLU would declare it cruel and unusual punishment. Statin drugs appear to be very safe and at least moderately effective in controlling cholesterol problems.

steingar said:
A vegetarian diet might not have lowered your cholesterol, but it is likely to help you lower your weight. Most of the food I cook is nearly devoid of fat, unless I go on my once yearly frying binge.
Click to expand...
It did not do anything for my weight. I ate too many bagels. Excessive carbohydrates especially simple sugars can have a very deleterious effect on lipid metabolism. Animals (including carnivores) not fed by humans almost always have favorable cholesterol levels. Vegetarians may have a low total cholesterol but a low HDL (good) cholesterol as do many people who consume excess carbohydrates.
 
Had a boss once who got into the whole raw-foods kick due to his wife seeing it have significant positive effects on her MS. Nothing cooked. His only "give in" on that was coffee.

I never spent any time studying it or trying it. He opened a raw foods company and left IT, which probably had more effect on his life and well-being than anything. (Shrug.) Business is supposedly booming, but then again, he lives in Boulder, CO... 20 square miles surrounded by reality... ;)
 
Gary F said:
I agree that a vegan or pescetarian diet can be more healthful for most people than one that contains meat although I do not believe that the moderate consumption of lean meat is as harmful as you apparently believe.
Click to expand...

A diet containing moderate amounts of lean meat is indeed quite healthful. I just isn't what most Americans consume.

Gary F said:
I do not agree with the belief that a vegan diet is necessarily more healthful. At least vegans are much less likely to ever contract prion disease. Prions are not killed by cooking and prion disease has a long incubation period. The good news is that there is no evidence of an epidemic of prion diseases in humans as far as anybody can tell. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/prions/
Click to expand...

The odds on anyone contracting a prion disease are so low as to be laughable. A vegan diet if conducted properly is nearly necessarily more healthful because vegetable food sources tend to be low in fat and simple carbohydrates. Thus said, even a vegan diet can be run poorly (like eating too many bagels, for instance). However, vegan diets do take some knowledge to conduct successfully, since most of the vegetable protein consumed in western societies is deficient in sulfur-containing amino acids.

Gary F said:
Genetics is important but the majority of the blame is on diet. I can easily devise a diet that would correct most peoples dyslipidemia (cholesterol) problems and lower the risk for many diseases and increase longevity. Studies have shown that if you feed rats 30% fewer calories than their ad lib consumption you can increase lifespan significantly.
Click to expand...

Most experimental longevity is based on nutrition. I have my doubts that this is effective in humans. Most humans have existed under conditions of caloric insufficiency for most of history. The average human life span is about 40 years.

Gary F said:
The problem is adhering to an ideal diet. We could test it out on prisoners but they would probably riot and the ACLU would declare it cruel and unusual punishment. Statin drugs appear to be very safe and at least moderately effective in controlling cholesterol problems.
Click to expand...

Not everyone can correct high cholesterol with diet, though many can. I doubt my Mrs. could further reduce her intake of fats and simple carbohydrates. We just don't eat that many.

Gary F said:
It did not do anything for my weight. I ate too many bagels. Excessive carbohydrates especially simple sugars can have a very deleterious effect on lipid metabolism. Animals (including carnivores) not fed by humans almost always have favorable cholesterol levels. Vegetarians may have a low total cholesterol but a low HDL (good) cholesterol as do many people who consume excess carbohydrates.
Click to expand...

A vegetarian or pescatarian diet does not necessarily involve ingestion of an overabundance of simple carbohydrates (though can easily, I myself need to shave a few pounds).
 
steingar said:
A
The odds on anyone contracting a prion disease are so low as to be laughable.
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I know but I have seen it referred to in vegan propaganda.

http://veganschool101.blogspot.com/2009/03/george-carlin-prayed-mad-cow-disease_18.html
I pray that mad cow disease will come to this country and completely wipe out the hamburger criminals.
It might be a suitable subject for a low budget movie on the SciFi channel, much scarier than bed cholesterol.
http://www.mad-cow.org/lacey.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~astrology/udder.htm

steingar said:
A vegan diet if conducted properly is nearly necessarily more healthful because vegetable food sources tend to be low in fat and simple carbohydrates. Thus said, even a vegan diet can be run poorly (like eating too many bagels, for instance). However, vegan diets do take some knowledge to conduct successfully, since most of the vegetable protein consumed in western societies is deficient in sulfur-containing amino acids.

Most experimental longevity is based on nutrition. I have my doubts that this is effective in humans. Most humans have existed under conditions of caloric insufficiency for most of history. The average human life span is about 40 years.

Not everyone can correct high cholesterol with diet, though many can. I doubt my Mrs. could further reduce her intake of fats and simple carbohydrates. We just don't eat that many.

A vegetarian or pescatarian diet does not necessarily involve ingestion of an overabundance of simple carbohydrates (though can easily, I myself need to shave a few pounds).
Click to expand...
I won't argue with that. If they invent a realistic vegan substitute for Texas beef brisket I might join you.
 
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