Grrrrrrr (Student Checkride)

[KennyFlys]

Dave,

Straight out departure is fine: If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn

...at least at pattern altitude.

That way, you're not turning out under another aircraft entering or remaining in the pattern.

 

[dmccormack]

BE careful doing that 45 degree departure. A couple of weeks ago I had a plane coming in on a long downwind entry and we were in a collision course for a period of time. I saw him and avoid long before we were close. But had no one been talking on the radio it could have been a surprise.

You're to depart straight out or turn 45, but there's no restriction on altitude -- keep climbing.

I usually climb to at least 2000' AGL in the vicinity of our fairly busy airport. If I need to do low level stuff I descend later -- when I'm clear of the pattern maniacs.

 

[Everskyward]

When I asked him about that he said "Since IFR Departure procedures are usually 400 feet or so, you have to get them ready for that..."

Nonsense. The AIM specifies to turn after reaching pattern altitude. If remaining in the pattern, turn on crosswind when within 300' of pattern altitude.

If we were talking Departure procedure, I'd find what what the specific ODP or SID stated, and use that -- Not some homemade recipe for disaster (Try that taking off from KVVS and see what happens...)

He probably got the 400' from this:

b. What criteria is used to provide obstruction clearance during departure?
1. Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the departure end of runway elevation before making the initial turn, and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile (FPNM), unless required to level off by a crossing restriction, until the minimum IFR altitude. A greater climb gradient may be specified in the DP to clear obstacles or to achieve an ATC crossing restriction. If an initial turn higher than 400 feet above the departure end of runway elevation is specified in the DP, the turn should be commenced at the higher altitude.

However, your student was not doing an instrument departure so that doesn't apply.

 

[Henning]

AIM suggests otherwise:

Interesting, I admit, I haven't read that particular piece of document in 2 decades, and I don't think it read the same then, but there's been many changes in technique that the FAA has put forth in the AIM and Pilots Handbook they publish (as advisory, not regulatory). I don't particularly agree with this type of pattern for small aircraft, especially if you are closed pattern. No sense in flying bomber patterns in a 152 on a hot day with a CFI aboard. What should dictate when and where you turn is your opportunities for a safe landing if you have an engine failure. It's kind of disenheartening when the FAA stresses ADM and situational awareness on one hand, yet sets "standards" bases on broad odds. It sends a mixed message that I don't particularly like. It just seems that they are preparing everything to happen "within the system".

 

[wabower]

We flew patterns at 600' for years. Pull the carb heat and power abeam the end, wait until the speed bled off a bit then turn base. Worked like a charm.

Interesting, I admit, I haven't read that particular piece of document in 2 decades, and I don't think it read the same then, but there's been many changes in technique that the FAA has put forth in the AIM and Pilots Handbook they publish (as advisory, not regulatory). I don't particularly agree with this type of pattern for small aircraft, especially if you are closed pattern. No sense in flying bomber patterns in a 152 on a hot day with a CFI aboard. What should dictate when and where you turn is your opportunities for a safe landing if you have an engine failure. It's kind of disenheartening when the FAA stresses ADM and situational awareness on one hand, yet sets "standards" bases on broad odds. It sends a mixed message that I don't particularly like. It just seems that they are preparing everything to happen "within the system".

 

[Everskyward]

We flew patterns at 600' for years. Pull the carb heat and power abeam the end, wait until the speed bled off a bit then turn base. Worked like a charm.

I remember flying the pattern at 600' doing touch and goes on 27L at KOAK. I looked it up in the AFM and it's still that way.

TPA—Rwy 27L 606(597)

 

[wabower]

The truth is that some of the 65-hp planes could just barely make it up to 600' with high DA and 2 up.

I remember flying the pattern at 600' doing touch and goes on 27L at KOAK. I looked it up in the AFM and it's still that way.

 

[Everskyward]

The truth is that some of the 65-hp planes could just barely make it up to 600' with high DA and 2 up.

In Oakland's case I think the reason they wanted the pattern for 27L low is so that airplanes wouldn't encroach too close to runway 29 since the pattern was flown between the north field and the south field.

 

[dmccormack]

Interesting, I admit, I haven't read that particular piece of document in 2 decades, and I don't think it read the same then, but there's been many changes in technique that the FAA has put forth in the AIM and Pilots Handbook they publish (as advisory, not regulatory). I don't particularly agree with this type of pattern for small aircraft, especially if you are closed pattern. No sense in flying bomber patterns in a 152 on a hot day with a CFI aboard. What should dictate when and where you turn is your opportunities for a safe landing if you have an engine failure. It's kind of disenheartening when the FAA stresses ADM and situational awareness on one hand, yet sets "standards" bases on broad odds. It sends a mixed message that I don't particularly like. It just seems that they are preparing everything to happen "within the system".

Absolutely -- but the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards have to be based on something, or we get unpredictable DPEs -- each with his/her own way o' doin' things.

My approach is this -- teach to standard, and the art will happen after the standards are mastered. (the old "Doctrine vs. Technique" discussion)

Thus in the case of ag flying -- "turn to crosswind within 300' of pattern altitude" makes no sense. But no one gets a PP checkride dusting a Pawnee (at least not many do).

 

[Henning]

Absolutely -- but the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards have to be based on something, or we get unpredictable DPEs -- each with his/her own way o' doin' things.

My approach is this -- teach to standard, and the art will happen after the standards are mastered. (the old "Doctrine vs. Technique" discussion)

Thus in the case of ag flying -- "turn to crosswind within 300' of pattern altitude" makes no sense. But no one gets a PP checkride dusting a Pawnee (at least not many do).

Yeah, but if he's been at it a while, maybe he's just trying to get across that "This isn't the only way to do this, and here's why..." He didn't fail your student for disagreeing with him anyway. When your student failed, he had legitimate busts on anyones terms.

 

[dmccormack]

Yeah, but if he's been at it a while, maybe he's just trying to get across that "This isn't the only way to do this, and here's why..." He didn't fail your student for disagreeing with him anyway. When your student failed, he had legitimate busts on anyones terms.

Nope -- this wasn't a "Let's learn together" event. The student is experienced enough in other parts of life to know the difference..

As far as the bust items -- The student knew, the DPE knew, and I knew after I heard what happened what he failed and why.

But the purpose of the test is to test the student's ability to fly within the parameters set forth in the Practical Test Standards. The PTS should be the focus of the test -- If he wants to bloviate about how things ought to be, do it after the flight.

 

[gismo]

Thanks for pointing that out. I have to admit, when departing, I don't usually do a 45 degree left turn (left traffic) to depart. I normally just depart straight out. I usually turn left at a lower altitude when staying in the pattern. I'll change that.

Best,

Dave

I do different things departing a towered field than an uncontrolled one. At my home base which is towered, I'll turn off the runway heading as soon as I hit about 400 agl unless the tower has given contrary instructions. But at an uncontrolled airport in VMC I'll delay a turn to crosswind until I'm high enough that I'll reach pattern altitude by the time I'm ready to turn downwind. If I'm departing the area I'll either follow the pattern around until I'm heading in the general direction I want to go while continuing the climb so I'm at least 500' above the pattern when I turn on course, or I'll climb straight ahead until 500' above the pattern and turn on course from there.

 

[BigAL]

I've learned so much from this thread! I could read similar things like this all day, it really helps a "noob" like me learn.

I don't know if you all realize this, but when you debate... you teach. I had my hand book out, the FAR/AIM, and even answered things that I didn't realize I knewthat well.

As far as the pilot training board, this really helps us new guys.(well, me anyway)

More threads like this is what I'm look'n for, learn'n from others mistakes and circumstances.

May I add that there could have been a personality conflict between the PP and DPE? I know it shouldn't happen, be we are not robots.

Great thread, and thanks!

 

[AdamZ]

Hell I recall DPEs being assigned by CFI's based upon the referral fees the DPE paid.

 

[Dr. O]

The check ride is a strange situation...
The student is not really a PIC as the FAA DPE is in the cockpit and is PIC...
The student is to respect examiner's authority - yet refuse to do what he asks if the student feels it is not allowed or is unsafe...
The DPE is to test the students ability to make command decisions by suggesting something that is not allowed, at the same time he is not to overpower the student's better judgement with his authority...
DPE's are human and are instructors and as such feel compelled to show the student 'how it should be done'...

For this to all work out, the CFI has to have the student prepped on how to handle this situation - do what the examiner calls for - YET refuse any suggestion that is a test of his command ability... It takes a good CFI to balance all the factors...

denny-o

 

[dmccormack]

I've learned so much from this thread! I could read similar things like this all day, it really helps a "noob" like me learn.

I don't know if you all realize this, but when you debate... you teach. I had my hand book out, the FAR/AIM, and even answered things that I didn't realize I knewthat well.

As far as the pilot training board, this really helps us new guys.(well, me anyway)

More threads like this is what I'm look'n for, learn'n from others mistakes and circumstances.

May I add that there could have been a personality conflict between the PP and DPE? I know it shouldn't happen, be we are not robots.

Great thread, and thanks!

Glad to hear it!

As far as personality conflict -- I don't think so, in this case.