Grrrrrrr (Student Checkride)

dmccormack said:
Student passed checkride at 7 PM last night (Thursday).

Whew.

He said the DPE charged him $150 more for the continuance.

This is my first experience with a first-time failure with subsequent re-test, but a others I've known who've failed and then re-tested said they were not charged extra for the re-test.

There's no guidance on the FAA site, DPE exam guide, etc.... Is this another DPE anomaly?
Click to expand...

This is a DPE that needs to be avoided from now on.
 
dmccormack said:
Student passed checkride at 7 PM last night (Thursday).

Whew.

He said the DPE charged him $150 more for the continuance.

This is my first experience with a first-time failure with subsequent re-test, but a others I've known who've failed and then re-tested said they were not charged extra for the re-test.

There's no guidance on the FAA site, DPE exam guide, etc.... Is this another DPE anomaly?
Click to expand...

No, it's common tho charge for the reride, typically at a reduced rate.
 
My DPE ride was $300 for the initial oral and flight test, and thank goodness I passed, as a retake for the flight portion was $200 more if I didn't. That was if we started the flight and he had to fail me. If weather moved in that wouldn't allow the continuance, or if we finished the oral and couldn't fly that day, the $200 didn't apply.
 
dmccormack said:
He said the DPE charged him $150 more for the continuance.
Click to expand...
That wasn't a continuance, that was a retest. A continuance is when the ride was discontinued, not disapproved. Most DPE's don't charge for a continuance within 60 days, but I've never heard of one that didn't charge for a retake after disapproval. Some DPE's charge full rate for retests regardless, but some charge about half the original rate if the applicant comes back to them for the retest. Thus, this DPE is on the easy side for that.
This is my first experience with a first-time failure with subsequent re-test, but a others I've known who've failed and then re-tested said they were not charged extra for the re-test.
Click to expand...
I've never heard of that unless the disapproval occurred earily on, like before they got started, e.g., eligibility issues or the like.
 
I paid for my retest on the private, and it was 50%. This was made clear to me at the beginning of the original test.
 
Henning said:
I don't disagree, but this is not the factor that would cause that decision.
Click to expand...

Once again you are assuming. I never stated nor implied the retake fee would be the reason to avoid this DPE. My assessment to avoid such a DPE was his rather poor check airman abilities as described previously.
 
My CFI ride was $600 and the retake was $100. That seemed pretty dang reasonable.

There was an article in AOPA Flight training a while back about DPE fees. According to the article, when you break it down, the DPE ends up with about $45-60 per hour for all the time he invest in the rides. The actual private pilot practical will take about three hours. The DPE will have another 2-3 hours in paperwork and other requirements on him or her to be in compliance with the FAA. Add to that the time they spend with inspectors for review and recurrency training.

Being a DPE is a great job but it's no get-rich-quick scheme.
 
Ron Levy said:
Given that a retest after disapproval involves more work for the examiner than a continuation after discontinuance, I'm not sure why you feel that way.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the additional effort required.

This is the first I knew about an additional fee after a failure. Yet -- as I mentioned earlier -- my sample size is very small.
 
Dan,

Whether you use this DPE again or not is up to you, of course. It certainly seems like there are some communications issues.

With this student it seems like there were 2 honest busts. Either agreeing to turns around a point where he wasn't comfortable or a 400 foot altitude deviation and the botched crosswind landing. Is that all on his pink (orange) slip and all he was retested on? If so I have a hard time faulting the DPE. BTW it's normal here for a fee for the retest.

The other discussion points you disagree on might be worth a sit-down.

The DPE I use for 90% of the checkrides is a picky SOB, but every pink slip can be justified by black and white words in the PTS. He debriefs me on every ride and in the beginning spent a few hours reviewing my lesson plans and helped me a great deal. That is what I'm looking for in a DPE.

Now his opinion on slips in a 172 with full flaps, which I honor, has gotten me more attention on this board than I like but otherwise I have no complaints.

Joe
 
Areeda said:
Dan,

Whether you use this DPE again or not is up to you, of course. It certainly seems like there are some communications issues.

With this student it seems like there were 2 honest busts. Either agreeing to turns around a point where he wasn't comfortable or a 400 foot altitude deviation and the botched crosswind landing. Is that all on his pink (orange) slip and all he was retested on? If so I have a hard time faulting the DPE. BTW it's normal here for a fee for the retest.

The other discussion points you disagree on might be worth a sit-down.

The DPE I use for 90% of the checkrides is a picky SOB, but every pink slip can be justified by black and white words in the PTS. He debriefs me on every ride and in the beginning spent a few hours reviewing my lesson plans and helped me a great deal. That is what I'm looking for in a DPE.

Now his opinion on slips in a 172 with full flaps, which I honor, has gotten me more attention on this board than I like but otherwise I have no complaints.

Joe
Click to expand...

I agree completely -- any DPE that will reference the CFR, AIM, A/C POH, or PTS to substantiate his/her comments is OK with me.

After all -- that's all I've got.

I refuse to play the "Well, this DPE likes it when you do this, contrary to the POH..." game. If it's in the PTS and supported by the various references we all are supposed to use, then that's what I'm teaching.

One more parting gem from this guy "Your instructor should have told you what the fee was."

Hunh?

Here's the way it's supposed to work -- once the test is scheduled, the applicant calls DPE the night before, the DPE reviews his expectations and then tells the applicant what the fee is. There's no way the instructor can/should know the fees of every DPE within a 5 state area as the amount varies.

There's a fairly busy flight school at the guy's home drome. My guess is he has a pipeline, they all know each other, and all the unwriiten rules are shared amongst the clan.

From now on everyone will go to the guy I know in WV -- fair, doesn't charge for re-tests, and will quote chapter and verse if there's a question.
 
glad your student passed the second time around. In my experience, DE's usually charge based on an hourly rate for retests.

Kenny - 600 for CFI? yowzas. I think I paid 250 for mine back in 2003.
 
dmccormack said:
From now on everyone will go to the guy I know in WV...
Click to expand...

My CFI had a theory about using the same DPE over and over. She felt that her students were more than prepared for the practical test. She also felt that DPEs are under pressure to meet a quota of failing a certain number or percentage of student checkrides. She didn't want one of her students to be failed because of that quota. So she has a network of 3 DPEs that she knows and works with, then rotates her students among them. Her reasoning is, if they really do have to fail somebody, they can fail another CFI's student.

Now, whether the quota thing is real or urban legend, I don't know, but she wasn't going to take that chance. She wanted her students to get the benefit of the doubt and if it's going to be a bust, she wanted the student to earn it.
 
dmccormack said:
I paid $0 dollars -- but a pound of flesh -- for my CFI checkride with the FAA.
Click to expand...

the 2 Initial CFIs that I have recommended also went through the FSDO. When I was ready for mine the FSDO was understaffed so I got farmed out. It was worth it to me to pay a little instead of waiting for eternity to take a ride with the FSDO.

And Matthew - I'm pretty sure your instructors theory is bogus. Now, I do understnad that if the DE has a high pass rate, 90% or so I think, then the FSDO does come out to observe a ride, but that is all, just to make sure they are still doing their job. Of course, Im pretty sure they have to do an annual observed ride anyway so it probably doesnt make a difference.
 
I have only taken four check rides, the fee for retest was stated in all cases by the DPE before the tests began. I have only done the CFI-G initial with the FSDO and all others were with a DPE. As I new instructor I would love to get to know the DPEs or FSDO examiners but we dont have a single one in the state of Utah for gliders. I might have to move. I recommended my first student last week and he passed! I hope to have the same luck in the future.
 
Matthew said:
Now, whether the quota thing is real or urban legend, I don't know
Click to expand...
One of the two DPEs I plan to use for my CFI-SP ride (depending on scheduling) says it's urban legend on his web page:

If someone looked at the examiner handbook out of context they could mistakenly get the impression that there is pressure to fail a certain percentage of people, but that isn't true. What it basically says is, "If an examiner has a pass rate above 90%, we'll probably wonder why and ask some questions." Why do you suppose that is? It's because statistically, there's going to be that 10% of people who show up unprepared for the checkride. I believe most examiners want people to be successful and would love to see 100% of the applicants pass on the first try. When I say I want all my applicants to pass their checkride, it does not mean, "Show up, pay me, you pass.", it means I want everyone to be competent and be able to demonstrate their ability to perform to the PTS standard. 100% competency rate = 100% pass rate and I guarantee you that no one in Oklahoma City has any problem with that philosophy. They want everyone to succeed, too.
Click to expand...
 
Jay's right. While FAA Order 8900.1 tells the FSDO to take a look at any examiner whose pass rate is over 90%, there's no stigma attached if the reason the rate is that high is that the local instructors are doing a good job of preparing their applicants. Note that if the pass rate is too low, they also have questions. In addition, they take a look at any working instructor with a pass rate under 80% over a significant number of applicants.
 
akite said:
I have only taken four check rides, the fee for retest was stated in all cases by the DPE before the tests began. I have only done the CFI-G initial with the FSDO and all others were with a DPE. As I new instructor I would love to get to know the DPEs or FSDO examiners but we dont have a single one in the state of Utah for gliders. I might have to move. I recommended my first student last week and he passed! I hope to have the same luck in the future.
Click to expand...

Where did he go take his check ride?
We have a DPE here in Southern NV, and there is one or more around Minden. Plus Marty at Cal City CA
 
KennyFlys said:
My CFI ride was $600 and the retake was $100. That seemed pretty dang reasonable.

There was an article in AOPA Flight training a while back about DPE fees. According to the article, when you break it down, the DPE ends up with about $45-60 per hour for all the time he invest in the rides. The actual private pilot practical will take about three hours. The DPE will have another 2-3 hours in paperwork and other requirements on him or her to be in compliance with the FAA. Add to that the time they spend with inspectors for review and recurrency training.

Being a DPE is a great job but it's no get-rich-quick scheme.
Click to expand...

There's an old DE down here who has a pretty good racket going.
 
For early tests, we were told to expect the examiner to ask us to do something incorrect, both for the flight planning and the flying. We continued to advise students of such, as it helps make it easier to refuse and correct for inappropriate requests.

I don't warn candidates for anything other than primary training tests.
 
Got more details about the re-test last night....

DPE was late, but called student's cell to let him know.

They took off and there was a slight crosswind from the left. Student applied x-wind correction while maintaining centerline.

I teach to always apply x-wind correction if there's the faintest wind from other than straight down the runway. Doesn't have to be full deflection, but enough so there's no skipping downwind on takeoff.

As they are rolling DPE says, "You don't steer with the yoke!"

"I know that -- there's a crosswind and I'm correcting for it."

"The ATIS said winds are 0."

(this is all happening on t/o roll, BTW)

"I don't care what the ATIS said -- the windsock shows a crosswind from the left."

He said this as the airplane lifted off.

He said the DPE was quiet after that reply. ("He must have known I was ****ed...")

Turns about a point were done at 800' AGL around a lone silo. They headed back to the airport where he did 4 takeoffs and landings. All were centerline, no bounce -- all good. Winds were light but from the left.

As they are rolling out and taking the tower-assigned taxiway, the DPE said "You gotta tell the tower what you're doing!"

Student: "No, sir -- I don't. I'm going to cross the line here, clean up the airplane, and then tell the tower my intentions."

(Student was absolutely right -- this isn't LGA and there is no need to rush the announcement that you want to taxi back and take off and do another circuit of the pattern).

More silence.

DPE told student to do a Short field landing but made him turn onto base "about 1/2 mile from the runway -- I was too high on final so I slipped it down...."

OK, fine -- but we discussed short fields and he agrees it's safer to extend downwind and give a bit more time to line it up and set up a steep descent once established (we've done short fields in that airplane -- with 40 degreees of flaps you are down and stopped in about 1000') -- there's no need for last minute heroics for any short field we fly here.

Still, the ability to slip then arrest and straighten and still land and stop short is a good combination of skills to have in the toolkit. Good thing we practiced it.

So last night was gusty but gorgeous (85 degrees and sunny but winds 15G26) so he didn't get to take up any pax yet.

Hopefully today or tomorrow.

I told him he had a week off -- then on to the IR!
 
Sounds like the DPE was the same kinda crotchety old fart he was the first time around, and this time your student didn't put up with it.

I wouldn't send him another student either, at least not without a good, long discussion about his approach and why he needs to not try quite so hard to get students to go astray. DPEs aren't supposed to insist that students break the rules.
 
BillTIZ said:
Where did he go take his check ride?
We have a DPE here in Southern NV, and there is one or more around Minden. Plus Marty at Cal City CA
Click to expand...
Bill,
We were at Marfa, TX for two weeks so that is where I was able to work with him and he was then able to take his checkride.

I am glad the student in discussion for this thread took on PIC with a new attitude during the retest and congrats Dan on ushuring in a new pilot!
 
jmaynard said:
Sounds like the DPE was the same kinda crotchety old fart he was the first time around, and this time your student didn't put up with it.

I wouldn't send him another student either, at least not without a good, long discussion about his approach and why he needs to not try quite so hard to get students to go astray. DPEs aren't supposed to insist that students break the rules.
Click to expand...

I don't see where the DPE insisted on anything (other wise he would have failed again) of the sort. Anything he did there could be justified under "Realistic Distraction".
 
Henning said:
I don't see where the DPE insisted on anything (other wise he would have failed again) of the sort. Anything he did there could be justified under "Realistic Distraction".
Click to expand...


Constantly badgering the student to do things the DPE's way as opposed to the AFH and AIM isn't illegal, but it's crosses the line from distraction to intentionally confusing.

One example is insisting the student turn on corse for his XC by 500' AGL.

When I asked him about that he said "Since IFR Departure procedures are usually 400 feet or so, you have to get them ready for that..."

Nonsense. The AIM specifies to turn after reaching pattern altitude. If remaining in the pattern, turn on crosswind when within 300' of pattern altitude.

If we were talking Departure procedure, I'd find what what the specific ODP or SID stated, and use that -- Not some homemade recipe for disaster (Try that taking off from KVVS and see what happens...)
 
jmaynard said:
I wouldn't send him another student either, at least not without a good, long discussion about his approach and why he needs to not try quite so hard to get students to go astray. DPEs aren't supposed to insist that students break the rules.
Click to expand...
I got the feeling from reading this thread that the DPE truly believes his way is best and was not trying to talk the student into busting a reg as a test. In any case, I wouldn't go back to him.
 
Last edited:
Everskyward said:
I got the feeling from reading this thread that the DPE truly believes his was is best and was not trying to talk the student into busting a reg as a test. In any case, I wouldn't go back to him.
Click to expand...


Agree -- I didn't get the impression he was testing as much as insisting that his techniques were normative, while the AIM and AFH were not.
 
I provide realistic distractions but nothing that could confuse the student. Recently, I did a XC with a recent PPC student in preparing him for IR and a glass checkout. He needed night currency so we stopped at another airport on the way back to Austin. "Why can't we just do touch and goes? I know you perform safely with them." He answered with the FARs requiring full stops at night. I'll keep up the distractions during the times we fly so he's better prepared to simply fly the airplane under instruments.

The funny part is what came to him from his Marine days when he was a gunner on a CH-53. Because of high noise levels he didn't have VOX to speak with the pilots and crew so he had to activate a switch. When he gave me his answer on night landings he also announced it to whoever else was listening at San Marcos at 11PM. :)
 
Henning said:
I don't see where the DPE insisted on anything (other wise he would have failed again) of the sort. Anything he did there could be justified under "Realistic Distraction".
Click to expand...
You could certainly make an argument for that. In which case the student should remind the DPE about the sterile cockpit he was briefed on prior to taxi and, if he still insisted on talking, used the ISOL switch!
 
gprellwitz said:
You could certainly make an argument for that. In which case the student should remind the DPE about the sterile cockpit he was briefed on prior to taxi and, if he still insisted on talking, used the ISOL switch!
Click to expand...

..and "sterile cockpit" is part of his pre-takeoff checklist.

Switching ISO during a checkride may be pushing a bit!
:smile:
 
dmccormack said:
Constantly badgering the student to do things the DPE's way as opposed to the AFH and AIM isn't illegal, but it's crosses the line from distraction to intentionally confusing.

One example is insisting the student turn on corse for his XC by 500' AGL.

When I asked him about that he said "Since IFR Departure procedures are usually 400 feet or so, you have to get them ready for that..."

Nonsense. The AIM specifies to turn after reaching pattern altitude. If remaining in the pattern, turn on crosswind when within 300' of pattern altitude.

If we were talking Departure procedure, I'd find what what the specific ODP or SID stated, and use that -- Not some homemade recipe for disaster (Try that taking off from KVVS and see what happens...)
Click to expand...

I always learned turn crosswind or on course at 500' also. Ag and utility flying dispelled me of that notion though. I'd never turn since I never hit 500'.
 
Henning said:
I always learned turn crosswind or on course at 500' also. Ag and utility flying dispelled me of that notion though. I'd never turn since I never hit 500'.
Click to expand...

AIM suggests otherwise:

4-3-1: 6. Departure leg. The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.


4-3-2:
Key to traffic pattern operations

1. Enter pattern in level flight, abeam the midpoint of the runway, at pattern altitude. (1,000' AGL is recommended pattern altitude unless established otherwise. . .)

2. Maintain pattern altitude until abeam approach end of the landing runway on downwind leg.

3. Complete turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the runway.

4. Continue straight ahead until beyond departure end of runway.

5. If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.

6. If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for pointing that out. I have to admit, when departing, I don't usually do a 45 degree left turn (left traffic) to depart. I normally just depart straight out. I usually turn left at a lower altitude when staying in the pattern. I'll change that.

Best,

Dave
 
dmccormack said:
..and "sterile cockpit" is part of his pre-takeoff checklist.

Switching ISO during a checkride may be pushing a bit!
:smile:
Click to expand...
If a quick reminder doesn't get him to shut up at that point, no, I don't think that the ISOL switch is pushing it at all. Obviously un-isolate him once you're out of the traffic area. Right after take-off is not when you need to be getting into a discussion with a passenger about whether you really meant it when you said you expected a sterile cockpit.

Edit: I'm presuming here that the DPE was a distraction at that point. If it truly wasn't bothering the new pilot, then let him blather on and respond as you feel comfortable.
 
Last edited:
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks for pointing that out. I have to admit, when departing, I don't usually do a 45 degree left turn (left traffic) to depart. I normally just depart straight out. I usually turn left at a lower altitude when staying in the pattern. I'll change that.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...
BE careful doing that 45 degree departure. A couple of weeks ago I had a plane coming in on a long downwind entry and we were in a collision course for a period of time. I saw him and avoid long before we were close. But had no one been talking on the radio it could have been a surprise.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks for pointing that out. I have to admit, when departing, I don't usually do a 45 degree left turn (left traffic) to depart. I normally just depart straight out. I usually turn left at a lower altitude when staying in the pattern. I'll change that.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,

Straight out departure is fine: If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top