Ground control called me out today

Skid

Skid

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Skid
Landed at Naples and when I exited the runway and contacted ground they had some words for me.

"Taxi to the apron, clear to cross 14, by the way Fort Myers didn't appreciate you getting so close to their airspace"

I immediately had the feeling of panic rush over me thinking I busted an airspace, but knew I planned the flight so I was 5nm outside* of it...and didn't realize getting too close was a thing.

I said "Sorry I guess I didn't realize how close I was, I'm fairly sure I was outside of it"

Them: "They didn't like how you left the frequency while so close"

Me: "Oh I was never talking to them I was monitoring guard the entire way, but I'll be sure to stay further out"

Them: "Wait...you never talked to Ft Myers?....Never mind then"

So while I was I guess, "close", I'm assuming they got me confused with someone else, yet their was no other landing traffic of my type from what I recall. Anyway just thought I'd share.

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*VPCLE was my final waypoint and then direct to Naples in case you want to see
 
Getting close to there airspace is like being a little bit pregnant...........

I fly right up to fort Myers airspace all the time and never have a problem, however, Naples can be a little snooty at times....
 
It would’ve been difficult for me not to reply “tell Fort Myers to stuff it.”
 
We were just having a similar conversation this weekend. I flew right up next to Restricted airspace. My friends were concerned about it. Why? If they want me further out, move the line further out.

As far as leaving the frequency, you can leave the frequency as soon as you're outside of their airspace. Doesn't matter how close you are. Some controllers get aggravated when you're out of their airspace and request a frequency change.
 
Lowflynjack said:
We were just having a similar conversation this weekend. I flew right up next to Restricted airspace. My friends were concerned about it. Why? If they want me further out, move the line further out.

As far as leaving the frequency, you can leave the frequency as soon as you're outside of their airspace. Doesn't matter how close you are. Some controllers get aggravated when you're out of their airspace and request a frequency change.
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That comes up when you depart a Class D. No need to say bye bye when you cross the blue line. If you're Radar identified and receiving Radar service though, it's usually not a good idea to just go silent on them without saying anything.
 
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Lowflynjack said:
We were just having a similar conversation this weekend. I flew right up next to Restricted airspace. My friends were concerned about it. Why? If they want me further out, move the line further out..
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There is a small restricted airspace right out side of Gallup. It gets ignored 99 44/100 percent of the time. Unless there is a red huey parked at the airport, then we pay attention.
 
Lowflynjack said:
We were just having a similar conversation this weekend. I flew right up next to Restricted airspace. My friends were concerned about it. Why? If they want me further out, move the line further out.

As far as leaving the frequency, you can leave the frequency as soon as you're outside of their airspace. Doesn't matter how close you are. Some controllers get aggravated when you're out of their airspace and request a frequency change.
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Well if your VFR and not talking to anyone, they really shouldn't care how close you get. ATC is mostly concerned about "spill out" affecting aircraft that they have separation responsibility for. That's why for IFR nonparticipating aircraft, ATC is required keep them 3 NM from the border of Restricted Areas. Just like bordering ATC facilities for IFRs each side keeps a buffer to ensure appropriate separation standards.
 
Zeldman said:
There is a small restricted airspace right out side of Gallup. It gets ignored 99 44/100 percent of the time. Unless there is a red huey parked at the airport, then we pay attention.
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What's the significance of a "red Huey"?
 
Lowflynjack said:
We were just having a similar conversation this weekend. I flew right up next to Restricted airspace. My friends were concerned about it. Why? If they want me further out, move the line further out...
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There was a thread not too long ago in which people were saying that pilots should stay at least 3 nm outside of restricted areas. Apparently this is the spacing that controllers apply for IFR flights, but expecting pilots of VFR flights to know about it seems unrealistic, as it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the AIM.
 
Palmpilot said:
There was a thread not too long ago in which people were saying that pilots should stay at least 3 nm outside of restricted areas. Apparently this is the spacing that controllers apply for IFR flights, but expecting pilots of VFR flights to know about it seems unrealistic, as it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the AIM.
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See, in my simple mind, I think they should just add 3 miles to the area inside of the restricted area and have a buffer they don't tell us about.

I probably was right at 3 miles. We have two airports right outside of Fort Hood, Longhorn and Shorthorn that sometimes are full of Chinooks and Apaches. I was going to show them to my friends.
 
mscard88 said:
What's the significance of a "red Huey"?
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So we can see it, I guess.

It is used to make sure the area is clear, of what I do not know. And used to find the missile that was just launched towards the White Sands restricted area that did not reach its destination.

But you did not hear me say missile.....;)
 
Zeldman said:
There is a small restricted airspace right out side of Gallup. It gets ignored 99 44/100 percent of the time. Unless there is a red huey parked at the airport, then we pay attention.
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Fort Wingate space?
 
Lowflynjack said:
See, in my simple mind, I think they should just add 3 miles to the area inside of the restricted area and have a buffer they don't tell us about.
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That makes more sense than assuming that VFR pilots will adopt a practice that the FAA doesn't seem to have included in its published guidance for pilots.

I probably was right at 3 miles. We have two airports right outside of Fort Hood, Longhorn and Shorthorn that sometimes are full of Chinooks and Apaches. I was going to show them to my friends.
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I used to maintain at least one nm spacing. Now that I have become aware of the spill-out issue, I will aim for three nm (although there are a few places, such as the Trona Gap, where that's not possible).
 
Palmpilot said:
There was a thread not too long ago in which people were saying that pilots should stay at least 3 nm outside of restricted areas. Apparently this is the spacing that controllers apply for IFR flights, but expecting pilots of VFR flights to know about it seems unrealistic, as it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the AIM.
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I think it's more about understanding that ATC Radar and our GPSes may show our position slightly differently. Seen plenty of articles recommending the practice of not cutting things that close as simple understanding of the limitations of our and their equipment.
 
Ben said:
Check out this article from Martha King about military airspace- I think it is a pretty good read:

http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2016/05/04/a-sporting-chance/
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Just covers MTRs but highlights a few problems. No point in the controller getting mad. It's the King's decision to continue traffic advisories not the controller's. Checking to see if an VR route is active is a waste. They all active at various times and no telling when the military aircraft will pass your route of flight. You just need to always be aware and have your head on a swivel. Just saw a Beechjet go by an hour ago while sitting on a scene site. A few minutes earlier and it would have been a close call. Having military pilots report to ATC won't work either. At the altitudes they fly, you get spotty radar / Comm coverage, especially in the mountains like the VR176 vid.
 
Velocity173 said:
Just covers MTRs but highlights a few problems. No point in the controller getting mad. It's the King's decision to continue traffic advisories not the controller's. Checking to see if an VR route is active is a waste. They all active at various times and no telling when the military aircraft will pass your route of flight. You just need to always be aware and have your head on a swivel. Just saw a Beechjet go by an hour ago while sitting on a scene site. A few minutes earlier and it would have been a close call. Having military pilots report to ATC won't work either. At the altitudes they fly, you get spotty radar / Comm coverage, especially in the mountains like the VR176 vid.
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That's a great perspective, Velocity. Where I am based at KART, there is a huge amount of MTR's, MOAs and restricted areas. I've never flown through them, but I'd be nervous to without talking to somebody- even just the folks over at KGTB.
 
abqtj said:
Tomahawks of Mass Destruction? :yikes:
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Theater Missile Defense testing. Launch from Wingate, do something near Socorro then impact in White Sands. Its all in the Federal Record.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think it's more about understanding that ATC Radar and our GPSes may show our position slightly differently. Seen plenty of articles recommending the practice of not cutting things that close as simple understanding of the limitations of our and their equipment.
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I don't recall that being mentioned as the reason in the previous thread. I used to use a mile because I assumed that that would be enough to account for any discrepancy between radar and GPS.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Just covers MTRs but highlights a few problems. No point in the controller getting mad. It's the King's decision to continue traffic advisories not the controller's. Checking to see if an VR route is active is a waste. They all active at various times and no telling when the military aircraft will pass your route of flight. You just need to always be aware and have your head on a swivel. Just saw a Beechjet go by an hour ago while sitting on a scene site. A few minutes earlier and it would have been a close call. Having military pilots report to ATC won't work either. At the altitudes they fly, you get spotty radar / Comm coverage, especially in the mountains like the VR176 vid.
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Any idea what would be a safe spacing from an MTR?

One complication is that I don't think I have seen them depicted on GPS displays.
 
Clark1961 said:
Theater Missile Defense testing. Launch from Wingate, do something near Socorro then impact in White Sands. Its all in the Federal Record.
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Are you referring to the Federal Register?
 
Palmpilot said:
Any idea what would be a safe spacing from an MTR?

One complication is that I don't think I have seen them depicted on GPS displays.
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They're 5 miles either side so I'd either stick to that or at least 1,500 AGL above. I think most MTRs are around 500 AGL though.

I've always advocated a CTAF with reporting points just for VR routes. That way anyone at low altitude within listening distance, operating VFR and below ATC coverage, can have an idea where to look. We used to use that with helos in Afghanistan but I'm not sure if that's a practical idea for the fast movers being a high workload mode of flight.

The problem with them is like I highlighted. Had them (VR1040/1041) in my airspace when I did ATC. Only a small portion of it was covered by radar. They also used to pop up aggressively off the VR route looking to pick up an IFR, sometimes right near civilian VFR/IFR traffic. Nothing a pilot can do except be aware of your surroundings and have your head on a swivel. The whole calling FSS like suggested in the King article is a waste. By the time you get the info it'll be old. The C-130 "slow routes" are just as much of a problem for low flying aircraft because they aren't scheduled and FSS has no idea when they're active. I departed off our base one day in our helo and a immediately got a warning on the TCAD. It was a C-130 at 500 AGL.
 
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At Eglin (bunch of restricted areas) we (controllers) would notice say a fighter getting close to a boundary and transmit to "work south" (or wherever the pilot needed to turn to stay inside) which told the pilot he was about to fly out of the restricted area. Hard for fighters to be contained some times as they're going very fast, dropping something, and then turning and burning to get out of the way of the ordinance and/or trying to remain within the restricted area. Controllers monitored the activity w/ the fighter on a discrete UHF frequency, at least at Eglin.

So even though you're technically legal flying right along a boarder of restricted areas for instance, activity could spill out. Not as big as a problem out west where they have more acreage.
 
Clark1961 said:
Theater Missile Defense testing. Launch from Wingate, do something near Socorro then impact in White Sands. Its all in the Federal Record.
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Suppose to impact at White Sands. It doesn't happen all the time. Hence the red Huey to look for pieces.
 
Reminds me of an exchange I heard while sharing the pattern with a C-130 (callsign "Skier")at KSCH a bunch of years ago,

KSCH Tower: SkierXXX, Albany tower just called on the landline and requested that you stay at least 1 mile west of their runway 1 centerline.

SkierXXX: Tell Albany that my DME reads 10.1 miles.

I thought it was hysterical, but I bet that pilot had a conversation he didn't enjoy after he landed!
 
Someone ******* about me getting too close but not in their airspace I might ask for a phone number so I can have a little talk with the offended party.
 
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I would have been tempted to read back ALL the taxi to the ramp instructions and lecture.
 
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