grass airstrips

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rstuchell

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rstuchell
Please forgive my ignorance but I am a real estate appraiser and not a pilot. I need help figuring out what the cost to replace 24,000 square feet of a grass runway is. It is my understanding that this particular runway that was built in the 70's was excavated 3 feet deep 2 1/2 feet of stone was installed and then dirt and grass was laid on top.

I have had a really difficult time finding a company that can give me an estimate to replace the area that is being lost.

Another question that I have is the runway is currently 3,000 feet long and 75 feet wide would shortening it to 2,700 cause any major issues or prevent any single engine planes from landing?

Thank you in advance.
 
Why do you want to shorten and what is the elevation of the land and terrain around it?
 
There is a slight elevation towards the back of the runway. It is being shortened due to a road project and can not be avoided.
 
On reconstruction you would have to speak with local excavation and landscaping companies for estimates.
Going from 3,000 ft to 2,700 ft.? Depends on conditions . 2,700 ft is great for many planes but 3,000 ft is better. I know there are some on this board that will tell you if you can't T.O. and land in 2,000 ft. you should turn in your pilots cert.All pilots and planes have limitations.
So , do you have displaced thresholds? ,what altitude above SL? What are your seasonal temps. What kind of plane do you have and what do others fly in there? Do yo get lots of rain? How well is the grass maintained?
I know that I have 2,600ft and am working to stretch it out farther.
In general ,in my opinion,the really critical issue here would be take offs with all the variables that would need to be considered.
 
I live on a grass strip but can't answer your question.

Longer is always better so you will be losing something.

Don't forget to account for obstacles. A rule of thumb you can use is 10x the height of the obstacle can be considered unusable. So if there is a line of 50' high trees at the runway threshold, the first 500' of runway is unusable. (and trees grow). Others may have other ROTs.

Since it sounds like you are fooling around with the ends consider that an obstacle free 2700' of grass is pretty sweet. Add some obstructions on the ends and things can get short. A private road running around the threshold is one thing, a public interstate another (I have that on mine).

Lot's of considerations but keep it open and operating!
 
rstuchell said:
Another question that I have is the runway is currently 3,000 feet long and 75 feet wide would shortening it to 2,700 cause any major issues or prevent any single engine planes from landing?

Thank you in advance.
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As others have said, this depends on a lot of factors. First, it depends on the specific type of plane and it's performance. Also, it depends on the elevation above sea level. The airplane performance charts for each aircraft depend on the airport elevation. At higher altitudes, it takes more runway length to get the airplane up to take off speed. It also depends on the weather conditions. Heat and humidity increase the necessary length of runway. Having a strong wind in your face will decrease the length necessary, and a wind at your back will increase the length necessary. Obstacles in the vicinity can have an impact. So, there are too many variables to give you a good answer to this question based on the information you provided. You really need to get the specific manual for the particular airplane at issue and run the numbers to see. Sorry.
 
It depends on how close the quarry is. You need to talk to a an excavator. A local one that builds roads and driveways.
 
PPC1052 said:
As others have said, this depends on a lot of factors. First, it depends on the specific type of plane and it's performance. Also, it depends on the elevation above sea level. The airplane performance charts for each aircraft depend on the airport elevation. At higher altitudes, it takes more runway length to get the airplane up to take off speed. It also depends on the weather conditions. Heat and humidity increase the necessary length of runway. Having a strong wind in your face will decrease the length necessary, and a wind at your back will increase the length necessary. Obstacles in the vicinity can have an impact. So, there are too many variables to give you a good answer to this question based on the information you provided. You really need to get the specific manual for the particular airplane at issue and run the numbers to see. Sorry.
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Guys, the OP is a real estate appraiser attempting to assign a value to the loss of runway. It sounds like eminent domain is being used to take possession of the land and it's the appraiser's job to determine the fair value. Obviously there is no simple metric such as price/acre and no one can assign value to the potential for injury or loss of life in an accident where the pilot could have made it if only he/she had a few more feet to get it stopped.

For value, I'd look at cost to acquire equivalent land elsewhere and build an equivalent strip then assign a substantial fraction for loss of use of the 300 feet. Obviously the road builder would object to that method but there really is no way to assign a fair value by typical property value metrics. Nobody tears down 10% of a building and compensates the owner 10% of the building's undamaged value...
 
:rofl: elevation, terrain, T.O., displaced thresholds, SL :crazy:

PPC, you're about the only one that spoke common english to attempt to answer the non-aviator's question. Kudos. :)
 
Clark1961 said:
Guys, the OP is a real estate appraiser attempting to assign a value to the loss of runway. It sounds like eminent domain is being used to take possession of the land and it's the appraiser's job to determine the fair value. Obviously there is no simple metric such as price/acre and no one can assign value to the potential for injury or loss of life in an accident where the pilot could have made it if only he/she had a few more feet to get it stopped.

For value, I'd look at cost to acquire equivalent land elsewhere and build an equivalent strip then assign a substantial fraction for loss of use of the 300 feet. Obviously the road builder would object to that method but there really is no way to assign a fair value by typical property value metrics. Nobody tears down 10% of a building and compensates the owner 10% of the building's undamaged value...
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This. All you guys are looking at a pilots view of a runway. He's looking at a dollar value from the point of a company that has to pay for it. Context matters. The reason he asks if it would limit planes from landing is because the road builders would prefer to say "2700 is enough, so we dont need to pay you full value because it's still usable." Reality is that the length of the runway is only one factor in it's usability. If they are building a road across one end what's gonna be on the other side of that road and how high will it be? are they planning on running power lines on telephone poles or putting up street lights? A road across the end isn't a huge deal, but anything taller than a car driving past is going to turn that 2700' into 2000' usable pretty quick, and under 2000' usable really starts to limit things.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem landing a Cessna on a runway like this, but a Mooney or a Bonanza? Probably gonna skip it. It definitely can be done, but it wouldn't meet my own personal minimums for safety factor.
 
rstuchell said:
I need help figuring out what the cost to replace 24,000 square feet of a grass runway is. [...]
the runway is currently 3,000 feet long and 75 feet wide would shortening it to 2,700 cause any major issues or prevent any single engine planes from landing?
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I'm curious -- 3000' x 75' is 225,000 square feet, not 24,000. Are you looking to value the whole runway or to determine the cost to fix the 22,500 square feet represented by the 300'x75' segment you asked about removing?
 
I would get an estimate from a company to lengthen the other end of the runway the same amount of that is being lost (including clearing and site prep). tack on 30% for your troubles and there you go :)
 
dukeblue219 said:
I'm curious -- 3000' x 75' is 225,000 square feet, not 24,000. Are you looking to value the whole runway or to determine the cost to fix the 22,500 square feet represented by the 300'x75' segment you asked about removing?
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Given that 22,500 is a lot closer to 24,000 than 225,000...I'm guessing its the latter.
 
Matthew is correct. It's not as simple as just shortening one end and/or lengthening another end. Is this a public airport? Are there RPZs to contend with? What about avigation easements? Trees and associated heights that didn't use to be an issue could now pose a problem.

Can you give more details on this? What it is exactly and why you're having to do it? What airport?
 
Rstuchell, first kudos on you for realizing that a runway has unique issues and asking the question. You have gotten a lot of good advice and a lot of great questions have been asked. For example someone asked where is the property located. That's important because the elevation where the airport is located plays an important role in how it can be used and what planes can fly in and out of the runway. For example a 3000' runway in Eastern Maryland which is close to sea level or perhaps a few hundred feet above will be usable by more planes than if it were located in Wyoming where the runway may be several thousand feet above sea level. Altitude and temperature play a big role in the performance of airplanes.

Also keep in mind that since the reduction to 2700' is due to a road being put in at the end of the runway the useful length of the runway may actually be less than 2700' due to what is called a displaced threshold.

The is quite a bit at play here in this valuation. May I suggest that you Contact El Con who posted above. He has a great deal of experience in the issues you seek to learn about. I think it would be well worth your client's money to perhaps retain him to consult with ( if he is inclined).
 
Rigged4Flight said:
:rofl: elevation, terrain, T.O., displaced thresholds, SL :crazy:

PPC, you're about the only one that spoke common english to attempt to answer the non-aviator's question. Kudos. :)
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Yeah got a little carried away, I thought maybe he would have spoken with a local pilot or two that used the runway and asked for info.
One of the other posters got it right ,just because the length will shortened by 10% means the value is just 10% less.
There will be a better understanding by all if we knew what was happening in that 300ft and beyond,ie. roads ,development. If it's private,heaven forbid someone put up a cell tower or a wind generator ,etc.
If it's a public use licensed airport there should be a tall structures act in place.
 
el con said:
If it's a public use licensed airport there should be a tall structures act in place.
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I would hope if this was the case that airport management would become involved, but this is not always so. Luckily we do have a height ordinance in place at my airport, so I frequently receive phone calls from the building codes office when someone is looking to set up a cell tower or something else of the like nearby. Others are not as lucky, nor do they have a procedure to deal with such things. The very first thing I'd want to know is whether or not it IS public use and part of the NPIAS. Have they accepted federal funding...has the FAA signed off on it...many many questions.
 
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rstuchell said:
Please forgive my ignorance but I am a real estate appraiser and not a pilot. I need help figuring out what the cost to replace 24,000 square feet of a grass runway is. It is my understanding that this particular runway that was built in the 70's was excavated 3 feet deep 2 1/2 feet of stone was installed and then dirt and grass was laid on top.

I have had a really difficult time finding a company that can give me an estimate to replace the area that is being lost.

Another question that I have is the runway is currently 3,000 feet long and 75 feet wide would shortening it to 2,700 cause any major issues or prevent any single engine planes from landing?

Thank you in advance.
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Id talk to a construction/landscape company, maybe find out who folks use for the local ball park or something.

As for 2700' that shouldn't be a problem for most general aviation aircraft, are there tall trees on both ends?

I learned how to fly out of a 2500' strip with 50ish foot tall power lines at one end, wasn't a problem for me. That said you're not going to be landing a Lear jet in there or anything. But for most cessnas and pipers and the like it should be fine.

All that said, if you were cutting off 300' of my runway and asking what it would cost you outside from normal acerage value, that would depend on what I was flying into the field, if it was a Supercub or a 185 or something, it wouldn't be the end of the world, if its something fast and heavy... Well that 300' could be the diffrence between being comfortable landing there or not, thus you very well might destroy all value in that strip by cutting it shorter.

More information is needed, plane, pilot, experience, etc etc IMO
 
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Ours is a hair under 3000. While it's not an issue for me, others have used up a good part of it. It also depends on the condition of the grass and soil is. Ours is pretty solid underneath and when it's mowed (which it usually is), it's about the same as landing elsewhere.

What happens for us is when it gets wet, it gets slippery. While I usually have no problem making the turnoff at my house (about 1800 down the runway or so I don't brake hard on the wet grass because I've skidded on that before.
 
rstuchell said:
Please forgive my ignorance but I am a real estate appraiser and not a pilot. I need help figuring out what the cost to replace 24,000 square feet of a grass runway is. It is my understanding that this particular runway that was built in the 70's was excavated 3 feet deep 2 1/2 feet of stone was installed and then dirt and grass was laid on top.

I have had a really difficult time finding a company that can give me an estimate to replace the area that is being lost.

Another question that I have is the runway is currently 3,000 feet long and 75 feet wide would shortening it to 2,700 cause any major issues or prevent any single engine planes from landing?

Thank you in advance.
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I built. own and operate my private airport with a 3000' runway... 2WY3..

Based on your specs, it took 180,000 cu yards of stone, 12,000 cu yards of topsoil and about 2000lbs of grass seed. Ball park price I would estimate is 90 - 110 dollars a linear foot of runway length,,

As others have said, the distance to the quarry and top soil source will alter those numbers.. And as others have said. removing 300 linear feet of an existing runway is NOT easy to calculate the true buyback costs because of various factors... Mainly safety...... IMHO..
 
That is an interesting subbase. I wonder what kind of soil or drainage issue required it?
The issues isn't landing, it's taking off. Planes can land in a shorter space than they can take off as a rule of thumb.
Another issue is whether this project would turn it into a one-way airstrip due to obstacles or other constraints.
 
jnmeade said:
That is an interesting subbase. I wonder what kind of soil or drainage issue required it?
The issues isn't landing, it's taking off. Planes can land in a shorter space than they can take off as a rule of thumb.
Another issue is whether this project would turn it into a one-way airstrip due to obstacles or other constraints.
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That is why I added my "safety" comment...
 
Thank you everyone for your remarks it has definitely given me a good perspective and path forward.
 
The issue that no one has really been pounded home, is that removing 10% of something can result in it being no long usable. What if we remove the top 10% of someone's body, or hack off 10% of an airplane, or 10% of a car, is it still functional?

Removing 10% of a runway, may (depending on location and use) make it completely unusable - if people like to fly airplanes with insurance. So the 10% price may end up being a 100% price. If the road goes in, and removes the end of the runway, and you have displaced threshold issues, it's not just 10% you're losing, it could be up to 40%. So the true cost could be an entire airport relocation.
 
That all comes back to the main purpose for that particular airport's existence...which we've been trying to get that info. Simply private or is it public use? That will answer many questions, but also create even more. But yes, insurance is a MAJOR driver in the aviation biz.
 
This is a private airstrip that the owner is using for personal and business purposes. I am trying to figure out 2 things.

1) How much would it cost to add the lost 300 feet to the other end of the strip. (there appears to be enough room and is what the property owner is asking for?

2) For the average pilot flying a single engine plane (that all the strip is approved by the FAA for) is the lost 300 feet really necessary.

From what I feel I have read from everyone in order to calculate the cost I should reach out to excavation companies to get this information as there doesn't appear to be a specialty company for creating and installing these types of grass airstrips. And that the length of the airstrip is not just a required distance but a several factors such as elevation and humidity along with pilot preference and aircraft type all play significant factors.
 
rstuchell said:
This is a private airstrip that the owner is using for personal and business purposes. I am trying to figure out 2 things.

1) How much would it cost to add the lost 300 feet to the other end of the strip. (there appears to be enough room and is what the property owner is asking for?

2) For the average pilot flying a single engine plane (that all the strip is approved by the FAA for) is the lost 300 feet really necessary.

From what I feel I have read from everyone in order to calculate the cost I should reach out to excavation companies to get this information as there doesn't appear to be a specialty company for creating and installing these types of grass airstrips. And that the length of the airstrip is not just a required distance but a several factors such as elevation and humidity along with pilot preference and aircraft type all play significant factors.
Click to expand...

For #1 your best resource would be to ask a local landscape company what it would cost. That is going to vary greatly by region.

For #2 it can be. Insurance drives a lot of things in aviation, and I know a few insurance policies require 3000ft of runway.
 
If you stay off of them when they are wet, you don't have to do anything except rake it and roll it now and then. Depends on the soil really. Some farmers build it up in the middle making ditches on the sides, then have the ditches drain off into a low spot. They maintain farmland so they know how. They use their tractor. The one near here is an alfalfa field. You can only land on it after its been mowed. Ive seen grass ones. They did put a lot of gravel in airport one. In Colorado, you get weeds, not grass. In Wyoming they land on these one vehicle track farm roads all the time. You buy a plane that has the same wheel base as the trucks that make the ruts.

An airport is just a place where someone lands an airplane. Can be a lot of surfaces. There is one that is beach sand in Washington state. Its a charted airport, on the beach.

Interesting stuff.
 
EdFred said:
For #1 your best resource would be to ask a local landscape company what it would cost. That is going to vary greatly by region.

For #2 it can be. Insurance drives a lot of things in aviation, and I know a few insurance policies require 3000ft of runway.
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I can hardly believe you are passing up the opportunity. Assuming your capitalist status, you could offer to add the 300' at the other end since you have experience and no one seems to know how much it should cost. Think of the 300' as in lieu fees and the road builder on the hook for that. Bid high, comrade.

Alternatively, you hire out as consultant.

Both of the above would realize a massive discount when compared to that of hiring an excavation company. Such a company would think of this project as pure gravy, a juicy plumb fallen into their lap.

You have an airplane and this is an airfield. Besides, the property owner may have a daughter or three.
 
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Item #1 - the owner is OK with adding the 300' to the opposite end, so he has already thought about the implications of that road project.

The rest is just getting quotes from contractors and checking with the owner's insurance co?
 
rstuchell said:
This is a private airstrip that the owner is using for personal and business purposes. I am trying to figure out 2 things.

1) How much would it cost to add the lost 300 feet to the other end of the strip. (there appears to be enough room and is what the property owner is asking for?

2) For the average pilot flying a single engine plane (that all the strip is approved by the FAA for) is the lost 300 feet really necessary.

From what I feel I have read from everyone in order to calculate the cost I should reach out to excavation companies to get this information as there doesn't appear to be a specialty company for creating and installing these types of grass airstrips. And that the length of the airstrip is not just a required distance but a several factors such as elevation and humidity along with pilot preference and aircraft type all play significant factors.
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When you get deposed, are you going to tell them you asked us? :lol:

If it were my case, I might argue that the shortening of the runway, especially for a road to be constructed, significantly affected the usability of the runway, and probably makes it unusable under some circumstance, and therefore the value of the taking is the difference between the value of the property with a runway and the value without one. But it sounds like that's not what the owner is asking for. Your approach is probably valid if the 300' can be added on to the other end of the runway without impact. I don't know where you are, but you might check with your state for any guidelines on constructing grass strips. If your state doesn't have any, I know Texas DoT has some. You might take those to a local GC and see what he'd charge you.

BTW, the FAA does not approve grass strips.
 
The owner of the airstrip......why doesn't he ask the advice of other pilots nearby who can come and look at the entire picture? What kind of airplane currently utilizes the strip? Is it private or public strip ? Who built it in the first place? Very difficult to answer on the Internet when there are many many unknowns. IE: it's possible that the soil does not need any gravel, sub base etc. many farm strips don't. The answer is local. A local farmer probably can tell him about the soil, etc. many strips of this type are simply mown and then used, like the one I flew out of for many years! 2400 feet.
.
 
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Theboys said:
For me the 300 ft would be a deal breaker. With much on I would need all 3000 for takeoff. I would not even consider trying 2700 grass.
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Which is why more info is needed with regard to plane type, obstacles at each end, etc. a beech 18 could operate easily out of 27-2800 feet grass. if low obstacles at the ends. Simple for a bonanza or say a 180 cessna., etc. etc.
 
Lindberg said:
When you get deposed, are you going to tell them you asked us? :lol:

If it were my case, I might argue that the shortening of the runway, especially for a road to be constructed, significantly affected the usability of the runway, and probably makes it unusable under some circumstance, and therefore the value of the taking is the difference between the value of the property with a runway and the value without one. But it sounds like that's not what the owner is asking for. Your approach is probably valid if the 300' can be added on to the other end of the runway without impact. I don't know where you are, but you might check with your state for any guidelines on constructing grass strips. If your state doesn't have any, I know Texas DoT has some. You might take those to a local GC and see what he'd charge you.

BTW, the FAA does not approve grass strips.
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Not sure what you mean by that?? Public or Private ?
Our public use grass airstrip is inspected by the State in which the State follows FAA requirements for them.
The FAA does recognize turf or grass airstrips and has airspace requirements
for them as they do paved. There are differences in the requirements, generally approach space requirements.
You can find info on this in the FAA published A/FD
Now if you are talking private use only the FAA does not get involved unless there is an airspace discrepancy with another public use airport.
 
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