GPS straight-in

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
Depiction is a straight line with a hold at the IF/IAF.

Ie it’s not a “T”

Does not say NoPT anywhere on IAP.

Must one always do a course reversal?

(The 530 insists.)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Depiction is a straight line with a hold at the IF/IAF.

Ie it’s not a “T”

Does not say NoPT anywhere on IAP.

Must one always do a course reversal?

(The 530 insists.)
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Yep, unless cleared for a straight-in approach. It isn't a requirement due to airborne equipment availability, it's a design limitation. For some reason they couldn't or didn't provide straight-in obstacle protection EDIT: or descent gradients.
 
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Absent radar environment and vectors to final, you must fly the course reversal.
 
Looks to me that you are going to need to lose some altitude in the hold.
 
Since it's an RNAV GPS aren't you supposed to go where the 530 tells you unless you and ATC work out something different?
 
alfadog said:
Looks to me that you are going to need to lose some altitude in the hold.
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interesting thought but I see NO PT if you're coming in from FST and you'd be at 10k there so I'm not sure why that specifically would come into play on a straight in vs the VOR.
 
Last point about this;
Will choosing VTF while inbound from the N permit the 530 to allow a straight-in? I had chosen a WP, while inbound from the N and it consistently depicted a course reversal.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Last point about this;
Will choosing VTF while inbound from the N permit the 530 to allow a straight-in? I had chosen a WP, while inbound from the N and it consistently depicted a course reversal.
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yes, but will it give you all of the waypoints you need?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Last point about this;
Will choosing VTF while inbound from the N permit the 530 to allow a straight-in? I had chosen a WP, while inbound from the N and it consistently depicted a course reversal.
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When you load the approach, select vectors to final as the transition. Assuming atc intercepts you outside of the FAF (as they are suppose to), the 530 will have no issues and will not demand a course reversal.

If you trying to join the approach inside of the final approach fix, the 530 will not be pleased and will not segment properly on its own. I’ve seen atc **** up vectors more than once and cause all sorts of confusion for the pilot that can’t figure out why the gps isn’t activating the approach.
 
There must be something wrong with me tonight.

Your 530 is commanding you? WTH!

You do know how to sequence to the active leg manually, right?
 
alfadog said:
Looks to me that you are going to need to lose some altitude in the hold.
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Nice noticing. 3500 feet in 6 miles at 90 knots GS is a 1375 foot per minute vertical speed. Probably some silly TERPS thing. The hold is to get you down to 8000.

Yes, it's required but, if you really wanted to dive down there, since TIFME is an IF, you could ask to be cleared straight in.
 
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jesse said:
If you trying to join the approach inside of the final approach fix
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Thanks Jesse, I will try the VTF option later this week.
No, I don't do the inside the FAF thing, I work way too slow for that chit.
 
MauleSkinner said:
No, you're supposed to fly where ATC tells you, and program the 530 accordingly.
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Err, let me phrase that a little better...

After you program the 530 correctly and you fly where ATC tells you and you are cleared for the approach, aren't you supposed to go where the 530 tells you since it's an RNAV GPS approach?
 
Take a look at the AF/D. The airport is outside radar coverage.
 
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eman1200 said:
interesting thought but I see NO PT if you're coming in from FST and you'd be at 10k there so I'm not sure why that specifically would come into play on a straight in vs the VOR.
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I don't see the NO PT you are referring to? All I see is something about 10d of radials into FST. Am I missing it?

Edit, looks from V198 and V222 inbound, they do not allow the hard right to R226 out of FST.
 
That fat black line is a procedural track and the hold is a HPILOPT. So, yes.
 
asicer said:
Err, let me phrase that a little better...

After you program the 530 correctly and you fly where ATC tells you and you are cleared for the approach, aren't you supposed to go where the 530 tells you since it's an RNAV GPS approach?
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Yes, once it’s programmed correctly. You could be coming from generally the North, maybe even on the FST Terminal Route, to TIFME, request and get cleared for a Straight in Approach. The 530 can’t hear what you and the Controller are saying to each other. It’s going to tell you to do the Holding Pattern entry. But you shouldn’t, because that would be a violation of your last Clearance received. You need to push the right buttons to make the 530 do what it’s supposed to do. Until you do that, it hasn’t been “programmed correctly.”
 
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alfadog said:
I don't see the NO PT you are referring to? All I see is something about 10d of radials into FST. Am I missing it?

Edit, looks from V198 and V222 inbound, they do not allow the hard right to R226 out of FST.
Click to expand...

I think I misread it.
 
luvflyin said:
Yes, once it’s programmed correctly. You could be coming from generally the North, maybe even on the FST Terminal Route, to TIFME, request and get cleared for a Straight in Approach. The 530 can’t hear what you and the Controller are saying to each other. It’s going to tell you to do the Holding Pattern entry. But you shouldn’t, because that would be a violation of your last Clearance received. You need to push the right buttons to make the 530 do what it’s supposed to do. Until you do that, it hasn’t been “programmed correctly.”
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E38 is a non-radar environment, and I do not believe there will ever be a clearance to fly an approach other than the full procedure.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Thanks Jesse, I will try the VTF option later this week.
No, I don't do the inside the FAF thing, I work way too slow for that chit.
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The FAA recommends not using VTF and for good reason. On this approach, VTF means a straight magenta line from RUWEL to infinity on a 014 bearing. There will be no TIFME in your flight plan. So, if ATC gives you "direct TIFME" you will be scrambling to reload the approach. OTOH, if you load the approach using FST or TIFME as the transition, it's simple enough to avoid the PT by saying "No" if you really like 1300 FPM descents.

upload_2019-3-27_9-2-41.png
 
SCCutler said:
E38 is a non-radar environment, and I do not believe there will ever be a clearance to fly an approach other than the full procedure.
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If you are coming in via Ft Stockton they can clear you to TIFME and straight in if you ask for it. TIFME is an IF. Radar is not required for that because you have a published procedural rack with minimum altitudes from FST all the way to the runway.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you are coming in via Ft Stockton they can clear you to TIFME and straight in if you ask for it. TIFME is an IF. Radar is not required for that because you have a published procedural rack with minimum altitudes from FST all the way to the runway.
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So, how do we get the GPS to sequence and activate the approach?
 
dtuuri said:
New math?
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No, bad math. Minimum altitude from FST to TIFME is 10,000. Minimum altitude at RUWALis 6,500 and the distance between TIFME and RUWAL is 6 NM. That's a 3,500 foot drop in 6 nm. That's about 600' per nm. That's closer to 900-1,000 FPM at 90 kts, but still a pretty steep 6-degree descent.
 
SCCutler said:
So, how do we get the GPS to sequence and activate the approach?
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I don't understand the question. If you load it as I did in the graphic - with, say TIFME as the transition and say "no" to the PT it will sequence all the way from FST to the runway without the PT In the 430/530, you can activate in multiple ways. You can manually activate. You can say D→ to any of the approach waypoints. You can activate whichever leg you are cleared to.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
OTOH, if you load the approach using FST or TIFME as the transition, it's simple enough to avoid the PT by saying "No"
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I did load the approach as you describe (direct TIFME) but the option to Fly Course Reversal at TIFME as you depict was not offered.

if you really like 1300 FPM descents.
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Regardless of the vertical on this particular approach I would like to learn how it works.

Thanks
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I did load the approach as you describe (direct TIFME) but the option to Fly Course Reversal at TIFME as you depict was not offered.



Regardless of the vertical on this particular approach I would like to learn how it works.

Thanks
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Keep i mind that the Garmin 400/500 trainer is old and this approach was recnetly amended, but see if this helps...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i6473r434yx9gi9/LoadApproach.mp4?dl=0

I didn't put it on YouTube so I won't get yelled at for no sound :D


Edit: Ah! @Let'sgoflying! I see what yo men. If you load from FST is simply gives you the hold. You can still scroll down to the hold and delete it with the "CLR" button:

upload_2019-3-27_9-57-2.png
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Does <Direct>TIFME or <Direct><Direct>TIFME still do what it used to do?
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Sure. with the cursor on TIFME, Direct will prompt for direct TIFME and Direct-Direct will prompt to fly the leg from the previous waypoint to TIFME. With the cursor on RUWEL, Direct=Direct will prompt to fly the TIFME-RUWEL leg, which is the most common method people suggest to avoid the VTF "trap"

Even the newer stuff has the "fly leg" functionality functionality.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Does <Direct>TIFME or <Direct><Direct>TIFME still do what it used to do?
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I confess I do not comprehend, MS.
"Still do"? As in, it did that before? And "double D->" TIFME is what you suggest trying?

Didn't sleep much last night, sorry.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you load from FST is simply gives you the hold. You can still scroll down to the hold and delete it with the "CLR" button:
Click to expand...

That was a cool video, I need to learn how to make that.
Yes I like that idea - did not know you could highlight the hold and remove it.
I will try that, soonest.
Thanks
 
SCCutler said:
So, how do we get the GPS to sequence and activate the approach?
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I think you could do it like this. Load and activate the Approach. Then go FPL where you should see TIFME, hold, TIFME, RUWEL. Put the cursor on RUWEL, then ‘menu’ then ‘activate leg.’

EDIT: or better yet, read the few posts above this
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I confess I do not comprehend, MS.
"Still do"? As in, it did that before? And "double D->" TIFME is what you suggest trying?

Didn't sleep much last night, sorry.
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Haven’t played with Garmin units for about 7 years, but yes...try the double direct TFME after loading it with the transition.
 
Dir--> Dir-->Enter when on the approach, does bypass the next waypoint (the second time at the hold). It's on page ~190 of the manual.

But VTF will work fine as well.
 
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