Got yelled at by ATC....

[Palmpilot]

...CC interpretations help but it would be much better to just to rewrite the regs so everyone is one the same page...

Unfortunately, even the CC interpretations sometimes come into conflict with each other. The one saying that a vector is not a clearance has already been posted, but there is a later one that says pilots must comply with ATC instructions, and it doesn't say what to do in a situation where the two CC interpretations contradict each other.

 

[Croomrider]

Informing a pilot that he has made a grave error is one thing, YELLING at pilots (and continued rants) is just not professional and isn't going to do anything to either mitigate the situation at hand or prevent future occurances.

I would expect it to be similar to my experiences of getting pulled over by a police officer. Most of the time if he's yelling at me, I end up NOT getting a ticket. If he comes up very polite and professional, I end up getting a ticket. You can guess which one I prefer, YMMV!

 

[N801BH]

So if a VFR pilot receives an instruction that takes him into class B airspace, from the controller having jurisdiction over that airspace, and has not received a class B clearance, and if there is no opportunity to obtain clarification in time, should the pilot deviate from the instruction?

Glad you asked this question.... From my FF post a month ago I thought the consensus was " once to get FF while VFR, you MUST follow their instructions..

 

[mtuomi]

Glad you asked this question.... From my FF post a month ago I thought the consensus was " once to get FF while VFR, you MUST follow their instructions..

...unless the instructions put you in to IMC, or in controlled airspace. Both of those are still 100% your responsibility.

Let's expand this a little bit. If you get an "instruction" to fly "direct to your destination"; but there is a class D on your way. Do you think you are good to go through?

 

[MarkZ]

...unless the instructions put you in to IMC, or in controlled airspace. Both of those are still 100% your responsibility.



Let's expand this a little bit. If you get an "instruction" to fly "direct to your destination"; but there is a class D on your way. Do you think you are good to go through?

That's different.


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[N801BH]

...unless the instructions put you in to IMC, or in controlled airspace. Both of those are still 100% your responsibility.

Let's expand this a little bit. If you get an "instruction" to fly "direct to your destination"; but there is a class D on your way. Do you think you are good to go through?

As PIC, I am responsible to complete the flight safely and within the rules set forth by the FAA.

So, tell me .... Why did I get chewed out for doing what I did in this thread...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85321

 

[MarkZ]

As PIC, I am responsible to complete the flight safely and within the rules set forth by the FAA.

So, tell me .... Why did I get chewed out for doing what I did in this thread...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85321

Your answer was on post 66 of that thread.


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[N801BH]

Your answer was on post 66 of that thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I appreciate that answer sir...

I know a VFR flight needs to hear those magic words to enter a Bravo.. But, if you can't get a word in edgewise, does the VFR flight need to make a 180 before the Bravo airspace ?

Will the controller get mad because the flight wasn't able to get a word in edgewise of his upcoming 180?

 

[Captain]

I appreciate that answer sir...

I know a VFR flight needs to hear those magic words to enter a Bravo.. But, if you can't get a word in edgewise, does the VFR flight need to make a 180 before the Bravo airspace ?

Will the controller get mad because the flight wasn't able to get a word in edgewise of his upcoming 180?

Also answered. If you honestly can't communicate then a 7600 squawk is appropriate. You are NOT getting in trouble for squawking 7600 in that situation and you ARE likely to get in trouble just continuing into Class B without a clearance.

Whether I turn or decend without clearance before entering Class B or IMC while VFR one thing is for sure....SOMETHING is going to happen before I hit the limit.

 

[Shawn]

If VFR, do not enter CBA til you hear a clearance to that effect.

I know this a Bravo discussion but incorrect statement regarding "C", zero "clearance" required. ONLY need to establish and maintain communication with an ATC facility with jurisdictional control (which can be Tower OR Approach) to enter C and D airspace. At no point will you receive nor need any verbal clearance to enter C or D.

 

[N801BH]

Also answered. If you honestly can't communicate then a 7600 squawk is appropriate. You are NOT getting in trouble for squawking 7600 in that situation and you ARE likely to get in trouble just continuing into Class B without a clearance.

Whether I turn or decend without clearance before entering Class B or IMC while VFR one thing is for sure....SOMETHING is going to happen before I hit the limit.

Interesting point..

For some reason I always assumed 7600 was for an equipment failure, not frequency congestion.

 

[Shawn]

For some reason I always assumed 7600 was for an equipment failure, not frequency congestion.

Your assumption is correct.

Would like to see the outcome if you just dial 7600 then blow through Bravo without an actual radio failure. Good luck with that argument.

 

[Shawn]

Let's expand this a little bit. If you get an "instruction" to fly "direct to your destination"; but there is a class D on your way. Do you think you are good to go through?

Yes you are absolutely good to go though...while on FF it is the controller's responsibility to coordinate any transitions through C & D...ESPECIALLY if they gave you an instruction that would take you through it.

B you need clearance, C&D only need to establish communication.

A VFR instruction is not a clearance like IFR.

 

[Captain]

Your assumption is correct.

Would like to see the outcome if you just dial 7600 then blow through Bravo without an actual radio failure. Good luck with that argument.

Read it again. Squawking 7600 is in liu of blowing through class B.

 

[Captain]

Interesting point..

For some reason I always assumed 7600 was for an equipment failure, not frequency congestion.

7600 is for lost comms. The stated condition is you 'can't get a word in edge wise'. Well, if you can't communicate then it seems appropriate. I think 7700 would work too as then you can deviate to the extent necessary. But I'm the sort of guy who uses the minimum amount of force needed....

 

[bflynn]

Unfortunately, even the CC interpretations sometimes come into conflict with each other. The one saying that a vector is not a clearance has already been posted, but there is a later one that says pilots must comply with ATC instructions, and it doesn't say what to do in a situation where the two CC interpretations contradict each other.

Unable. Or turn into the Class B and live to get the 30 day suspension.

 

[bflynn]

. Is there a reference in the eCFR that states what an authorization is ?

1.1, it states that the authorization is given by ATC. Controllers have two phrases for a VFR authorization to bravo defined by the .65 ATC manual, "Cleared into Bravo" or "Cleared as Requested". Anything else they say is not an authorization.

 

[Palmpilot]

Unable. Or turn into the Class B and live to get the 30 day suspension.

OK, but I still don't understand why a controller would report you for doing what he told you to do.

 

[eetrojan]

To my mind, entering the bravo without hearing "cleared into bravo" because approach previously vectored you toward the bravo would be analogous to landing at a towered airport without hearing "cleared to land" because tower previously said "continue."

In both cases, I would seek clarification. And, absent an emergency basis for doing otherwise, I wouldn't enter the bravo, or land.

Isn't that the correct way of participating?

 

[Approach_controller]

I still don't agree wit you and while not a controller and certainly haven't likely seen the worst of things, I've been a pilot and instrument rated longer than you. Informing a pilot that he has made a grave error is one thing, YELLING at pilots (and continued rants) is just not professional and isn't going to do anything to either mitigate the situation at hand or prevent future occurances.

Despite how boneheaded pilots can be, we should be able to expect air traffic controllers to act professionally.

I'm not in disagreement with you. I just think it'd be a good idea if we pack up our bias and meet in the middle. If given the option of ignoring a grievous airspace bust, clarifying the error with the pilot or handing out a number I'm more inclined to clarify. To me it seems more productive because A) it's a teaching point and B ) carries no risk to the pilot if they understand their error.

Ranting and yelling jeopardizes the safety of flight on the other end and can give you a nervous scared pilot, not to mention a poor use of frequency.

I'm just curious, if you were shooting an ILS MVFR and a VFR busted the Bravo over the marker at your altitude and you had to break out, in my shoes how would you want to see it handled?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I had flight following from Miami and was handed off to Orlando. I checked in with Orlando after hand off,,, I was acknowledged by Orlando,,, then... I was yelled at for not being cleared into Bravo airspace.



When Orlando accepted me, I PRESUMED I was cleared although I did not specifically asked for the clearance after they accepted the hand off.

My worst experience with ATC (actually ground controller) was at Orlando exec, I got yell at for 3 mins for saying "clear to cross runway". I probably still be there if it wasn't for a Gulfstream pilot cutting in and asking if he could stop yelling at me so he could get his clearance.

 

[bflynn]

OK, but I still don't understand why a controller would report you for doing what he told you to do.

There are reasons...Because you following what they told you caused a big problem. Not wanting to admit their own mistake. Not recognizing their mistake. Being in a bad mood. Because they can. Because you're supposed to remain clear no matter what and if you bust it, it's on you. Because someone decides that Orlando has slid long enough and it's time to make an example.

Maybe it's not even the controller that told you. Could be a supervisor or the controller in the next sector. Especially when "But I was told to turn this way" is directly contradicted by primary training.

 

[mtuomi]

Will the controller get mad because the flight wasn't able to get a word in edgewise of his upcoming 180?

No, he should get mad at himself by giving an instruction that will lead you to bravo without saying in the same sentence, "cleared into XXX class B airspace", which they normally do.

It is an instruction for VFR traffic in class E, not a clearance.

 

[Henning]

I had flight following from Miami and was handed off to Orlando. I checked in with Orlando after hand off,,, I was acknowledged by Orlando,,, then... I was yelled at for not being cleared into Bravo airspace.

When Orlando accepted me, I PRESUMED I was cleared although I did not specifically asked for the clearance after they accepted the hand off.

Lesson learned,,, but I have been handed off before and not had to ask specifically for clearance, when I ask for clearance now, I am sometimes been told I was already cleared.... I ask anyway

Does other Bravo ATC's require specific request after hand off in different part of the country?

Yep, you were wrong. If he yelled at you but didn't give you a phone number, it's probably over. The FAA has adopted an education vs punishment philosophy. I am sure by now you have been educated. How you missed "must have a clearance to enter B", and that flight following is not a clearance, I'm not quite sure, but that situation no longer exists. That's pretty much what the FAA cares about, so if you do end up with a letter, make it clear off the bat that you understand where you were wrong, and it will all go away.

 

[Palmpilot]

There are reasons...Because you following what they told you caused a big problem. Not wanting to admit their own mistake. Not recognizing their mistake. Being in a bad mood. Because they can. Because you're supposed to remain clear no matter what and if you bust it, it's on you. Because someone decides that Orlando has slid long enough and it's time to make an example.

Maybe it's not even the controller that told you. Could be a supervisor or the controller in the next sector. Especially when "But I was told to turn this way" is directly contradicted by primary training.

Sure, all that stuff could happen in theory, but in actual practice, I'm skeptical of the notion that a controller with jurisdiction over the class B area involved is reporting pilots for following HIS OWN INSTRUCTIONS. As for a supervisor or a controller who was not directly involved doing it, that doesn't sound very likely. It seem more likely to me that enforcement action would be requested if you did something that caused a loss of separation, and it seems to me that that's far less likely to occur if you're on the heading and altitude ATC wants you on.

As for "you're supposed to remain clear no matter what," where is it written that 91.131(a) supersedes 91.123(b)?

 

[Henning]

It's very simple, you need a clearance to enter Class B, an instruction is not a clearance.

 

[Palmpilot]

It's very simple, you need a clearance to enter Class B, an instruction is not a clearance.

If you enter class B without a clearance, you risk enforcement action.
If you disregard an instruction, you risk enforcement action.

 

[Palmpilot]

To my mind, entering the bravo without hearing "cleared into bravo" because approach previously vectored you toward the bravo would be analogous to landing at a towered airport without hearing "cleared to land" because tower previously said "continue."

In both cases, I would seek clarification. And, absent an emergency basis for doing otherwise, I wouldn't enter the bravo, or land.

Isn't that the correct way of participating?

Seeking clarification is absolutely the correct thing to do. The argument seems to be about what do you do if you can't get it.

 

[N801BH]

If you enter class B without a clearance, you risk enforcement action.
If you disregard an instruction, you risk enforcement action.

My thoughts exactly.....

Damned if you do....

Damned if you don't....

 

[eetrojan]

Seeking clarification is absolutely the correct thing to do. The argument seems to be about what do you do if you can't get it.

I guess, but in both circumstances (landing, or entering bravo), it seems pretty simple if you can't get the clearance.

If I'm not cleared to land, and I can't clarify otherwise for some reason, I don't land. I offset and go around.

If I'm not cleared into the bravo, and I can't clarify otherwise for some reason, I don't go into it. I turn.

 

[Palmpilot]

I guess, but in both circumstances (landing, or entering bravo), it seems pretty simple if you can't get the clearance.

If I'm not cleared to land, and I can't clarify otherwise for some reason, I don't land. I offset and go around.

A clearance to land is not considered to be an instruction to land.

If I'm not cleared into the bravo, and I can't clarify otherwise for some reason, I don't go into it. I turn.

If the controller who issued the vector did not have jurisdiction over the class B area involved, I would too, but if the controller did have jurisdiction, I'm not so sure.

 

[Henning]

If you enter class B without a clearance, you risk enforcement action.
If you disregard an instruction, you risk enforcement action.

Hierarchy of matters. It is understood practice among every pilot I have know trained to the PP standard that if you haven't received a clearance interest instruction authority ends as the class B boundary and you hold outside that boundary until cleared in. Typically DPEs seem to make a point of checking this knowledge on the oral and/or practical exams for PP.

 

[Palmpilot]

Hierarchy of matters. It is understood practice among every pilot I have know trained to the PP standard that if you haven't received a clearance interest instruction authority ends as the class B boundary and you hold outside that boundary until cleared in. Typically DPEs seem to make a point of checking this knowledge on the oral and/or practical exams for PP.

Sure, but how many instructors cover the scenario of a vector from the controller who has jurisdiction over the class B area involved, with no opportunity to seek clarification? It never came up in my training, and it seems like it would be a rare enough scenario that few instructors would cover it.

Even if they were all covering this scenario, and all pilots agreed, I'm not sure that would guarantee that you would get sanctioned for violating 91.131(a), but not for violating 91.123(b), and it certainly wouldn't guarantee that you wouldn't have a loss of separation.

 

[Henning]

Sure, but how many instructors cover the scenario of a vector from the controller who has jurisdiction over the class B area involved, with no opportunity to seek clarification? It never came up in my training, and it seems like it would be a rare enough scenario that few instructors would cover it.

In my training it was, " never, under no circumstances, do you cross that boundary without hearing the word "cleared" first." Seemed pretty unambiguous enough to me. Not to say I haven't had an incursion or two, but nothing that wasn't forgiven. One time ATL gave me a rapid fire clearance as I punched through the floor climbing out of LZU...oops.

 

[Shawn]

Just outside LAX bravo I was VFR and given an instruction to turn 20 degrees to the right in a VERY busy and chaotic frequency and air space. I made the turn which put me on a collision course with the Bravo boundary...I asked if I was cleared into Bravo..."Negative, remain clear but stay with me for a bit and I will release you to own nav...thanks"

An instruction did not equal a clearance and It was my responsibility to clarify or get a clearance.

I look at it as my job to query ATC for any ambiguity and make zero assumptions. I am the one in the pilot seat and responsible for meeting the regulations.

 

[ksandrew]

Hi All.

I have been following this post with great interest, I fly into Orlando Class Bravo on a regular basis vfr and have difficulties at times.

After reading for the last few days I was of the opinion that I should wait for the magic words before entering.

Today while working in my hangar a friend drove up so I decided to get his opinion. but first his qualifications.

Day Job.... Check airman on the 747s for UPS
Instructor with all the letters needed.
Newly minted DPE. Flys general aviation on days off.

I carefully explained my situations in Orlando and he told me to follow ATC vectors without questioning class bravo. as long as they have used my correct tail number when talking to me. this is IFR or VFR.

NOW THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

Send a letter to

Chief counsel for Regulation
U.S. Dept. of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration.

Explain in detail the situations and ask for a written opinion, this done on POA letterhead. Then to print the opinion here on PoA

Any volunteers??????????

Ken

 

[eetrojan]

A clearance to land is not considered to be an instruction to land.

Hi Palmpilot - It probably got lost in the string of posts, but my analogy was tower saying "continue" (hear it all the time when I'm on final, but not yet cleared).

Continue is an instruction that has me flying to the runway, but it doesn't mean that I have a clearance to land.

If the controller who issued the vector did not have jurisdiction over the class B area involved, I would too, but if the controller did have jurisdiction, I'm not so sure.

I wouldn't feel comfortable changing what I do based on my [probably wrong] guess at whether some controller has jurisdiction. It makes more sense for me to know that the controller has jurisdiction because be says, "cleared into the bravo."

And, that's definitely what they taught me during training.

 

[Henning]

Hi All.

I have been following this post with great interest, I fly into Orlando Class Bravo on a regular basis vfr and have difficulties at times.

After reading for the last few days I was of the opinion that I should wait for the magic words before entering.

Today while working in my hangar a friend drove up so I decided to get his opinion. but first his qualifications.

Day Job.... Check airman on the 747s for UPS
Instructor with all the letters needed.
Newly minted DPE. Flys general aviation on days off.

I carefully explained my situations in Orlando and he told me to follow ATC vectors without questioning class bravo. as long as they have used my correct tail number when talking to me. this is IFR or VFR.

NOW THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

Send a letter to

Chief counsel for Regulation
U.S. Dept. of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration.

Explain in detail the situations and ask for a written opinion, this done on POA letterhead. Then to print the opinion here on PoA

Any volunteers??????????

Ken

Your friend is incorrect and is used to operating solely in an IFR environment where one is on a clearance the entire flight and does not need an additional clearance at the Bravo. There has been some ambiguity that may have been created by some controllers, but there is nothing to protect you from a violation if you assume a clearance.

 

[bflynn]

If you disregard an instruction, you risk enforcement action.

Warrior 917 unable, not cleared class B. Rejecting is not the same as disregarding. Same as if they asked you to turn into a cloud.

 

[RotorDude]

Hi All.

I have been following this post with great interest, I fly into Orlando Class Bravo on a regular basis vfr and have difficulties at times.

After reading for the last few days I was of the opinion that I should wait for the magic words before entering.

Today while working in my hangar a friend drove up so I decided to get his opinion. but first his qualifications.

Day Job.... Check airman on the 747s for UPS
Instructor with all the letters needed.
Newly minted DPE. Flys general aviation on days off.

I carefully explained my situations in Orlando and he told me to follow ATC vectors without questioning class bravo. as long as they have used my correct tail number when talking to me. this is IFR or VFR.

NOW THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

Send a letter to

Chief counsel for Regulation
U.S. Dept. of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration.

Explain in detail the situations and ask for a written opinion, this done on POA letterhead. Then to print the opinion here on PoA

Any volunteers??????????

Ken

I don't have your friend's letters or qualifications, but I do fly the system a lot, for many years, from when TCAs ruled the sky, and believe he is absolutely correct. If the controller in charge of the airspace instructs you (VFR FF) to proceed to fix XYZ altitude ABC, you do as he says, unless there is a mountain, a cloud, or an airplane in the way. If time allows (which is not common in Bravo airspace) you can ask if you are cleared through the Bravo (assuming he hasn't already mentioned it, as they do 9 times out of 10). But act first, ask questions later. I have never had a controller tell me in this circumstance, "I didn't say the magic words, gotcha!".