Pretty sure (as I read it) that pass or fail, with BasicMed, the FAA isn't in the loop at all. I don't have a SI, don't expect that I'd need one if I went for a III Class, but will/will let my III Class expire before getting the BasicMed.
Going BasicMed
- Thread starter Sundancer
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And I'm sure all the people who support the 4th amendment are just worried about the government finding something in their home and the hassle too right?
There is no 4th Ammendment issue involved. The ability to legally operate an aircraft is a privilege in which there is a significant public safety interest, and the medical condition of the pilot is material to that interest.
JKG
The medical condition of a pilot in the low end of the GA spectrum is statistically insignificant - it really isn't material to the public safety interest, compared to the operation of almost every other private conveyance that are regular and frequent killers. Guys aren't becoming incapacitated in flight and crashing into orphanages - not that a 172 would make it through a well constructed orphanage roof anyway. It's always been a stretch to have the III Class as a requirement - stats never supported it - probably not a clear 4th amendment conflict, but definitely a bogus requirement, or at least one not supported by facts, experience, or data.
Call it a privilege if you like, but it's a privilege that can't legally be denied you, if you pass the checkride and written, and you are otherwise qualified, the FAA has no choice, they have to issue.
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I have to agree with this. The same guy who isn't medically qualified to fly a 150 can barrel down the I-road at 85 in a 15 pax van. You're likely surrounded on your morning commute by people who couldn't pass a third class, yet there's no carnage.
I'm not calling it a privilege, that is in fact what it is. The government could and has grounded aircraft and pilots with and without just cause, and has the regulatory authority to do so. Yes, if you comply with the government's requirements, they will grant you a medical and/or pilot certificate, both of which are subject to suspension or revocation by the same government who issued them.
Likewise, the proven risks of operating an aircraft are far greater than perhaps with any other vehicle. Yes, pilots do have medical events and crash, sometimes endangering or fatally injuring passengers. There is no coasting to the side of the road in an aircraft. Accident statistics for light GA aircraft are far worse than just about every other form of transportation, which reflect the presence of the additional risk.
Given the substantial increase in risk which accompanies flight, the medical suitability of the pilot is material the determination of whether a pilot may safely operate an aircraft, especially since that operation may involve passengers. There are multiple reasons why the same standard does not apply to automobiles, among them the substantially reduced risk involved with their operation, and political pressure to maintain a privilege to which many feel entitled.
Regardless of varying opinions on this topic, I don't see the 4th Ammendment issue here.
JKG
A_Valkyrie
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One thing that I noticed is how basic the form is for the physical. Have you ever studied a DOT form for a commercial truck driver or something like that? It is way more complex. The Basic Med exam doesn't even have a pass/fail category on the checklist, it just says "examined" with a little check box. I could understand how that would be intimidating to some physicians to sign off on, especially on something this new.
Until a Federal judge intervenes:
FAA: "This guy said mean stuff about us, so we denied his ticket"
Judge: "You have 30 days to show cause or issue."
Admittedly, probable a very abbreviated version, I know.
And you gotta have the money to get 'em in court. But no, as I said, I believe the FAA is legally, statutorily, bound to issue unless there is cause not to. And they'll do what they're told by a court. And they do, of course, otherwise they'd bring down a steel storm from elected reps and the courts, if they were routinely capricious and arbitrary - which did get them the PBOR. And reversals (occasionally) by the NTSB. The FAA is never the final arbiter, unless you choose not to pursue remedy. Or can't afford to. And when they are reversed, it's by a Fed entity, as I noted - same gov't.And people have also been killed by lightening and meteors, but we don't require lightening rods on every tree, or a anti-meteor missile system. At some point, the stats have to support the effort. And money. And intrusion. And crashes from medical incapacitation are about as rare, or rarer, than those events, in low-end GA. It just doesn't happen. Don't quote me, and I'm sure there have been some, but I believe I read there have been intervals of several years, or more, between medical-induced crashes in low-end GA.
I concede the fourth amendment may not be compromised (I'm not really qualified to have an opinion on that) - I can't concede there is any significant additional risk to Grandma if I take her up on Sunday afternoon in our 172, without a III Class. Or any medical at all, actually.
If I fly 175 hours this year, that's about 2% of the hours available. That big blood vessel in my brain may be set to explode, but it's got a lot more opportunity to so somewhere other than my airplane. Not that a III Class would have detected it anyway.
tinerj
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tinerj
[QUOTE="A_Valkyrie, post: 2352869] The Basic Med exam doesn't even have a pass/fail category on the checklist, it just says "examined" with a little check box. I could understand how that would be intimidating to some physicians to sign off on, especially on something this new.[/QUOTE]
It form seems to equate "driving a vehicle" with flying a plane. The doctor signs that he examined the items and the person can operate a vehicle or aircraft.
If a pilot can drive a car to the doctors clinic and walk into the office, then the doctor would be unlikely not to sign the form. It is that easy.
It form seems to equate "driving a vehicle" with flying a plane. The doctor signs that he examined the items and the person can operate a vehicle or aircraft.
If a pilot can drive a car to the doctors clinic and walk into the office, then the doctor would be unlikely not to sign the form. It is that easy.
azure
Final Approach
I suspect it VERY MUCH depends on the doctor. In fact, that is one of the criticisms that has been voiced against Basic Med, that there are no objective standards other than the "Big Three" categories of conditions requiring an SI.
N3368K
Cleared for Takeoff
I had a SI which expired the end of July. Aug 5, my hangarmate, who is an MD and former AME did my BasicMed exam. $50 cash and one hour and it was all done.
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A_Valkyrie
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Right, which I imagine is the point of the whole thing. The FAA has released control of it, and besides some very severe obvious cases (loss of consciousness, heart attacks, etc.) they basically washed their hands of it. It is between you and your physician. I only wonder after an "incident" and the FAA dives into your medical history and they find things that they wouldn't have passed....when they disagree with your physician that you were not in any condition to operate an aircraft. I hope that never happens
The FAA didn't wash their hands of it. Congress washed the FAA's hands of it.
A_Valkyrie
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Right, good point. It will be very interesting to see where this goes in the next few years...
N3368K
Cleared for Takeoff
Exactly. The FAA would have never willingly given up the control had Congress not forced it down their throats. I would love, however, to know what the FAA proposed CLIII Medical Reform plan contained that they forwarded to the Dept Transportation where is was shelved.
exncsurfer
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I'm planning to go Basic Med next month. Contacted my AME and he confirmed he will do the exam and that its $60 cheaper than the 3rd class.
A_Valkyrie
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Mine is tomorrow with a doctor who specializes in DOT physicals and employment screening exams. I had a one clinic tell me they would not do it and another who wanted more information because they had never heard of it. The doctor I contacted who agreed to do it said he had never heard of it but it looked like something they can do. After a few days I asked him again and he said call the scheduler.
exncsurfer
Pattern Altitude
Another BasicMed pirep:
I went to my AME for this, in and out in 30 min, saved $70 and gained 2 extra years vs. the 3rd class.
I went to my AME for this, in and out in 30 min, saved $70 and gained 2 extra years vs. the 3rd class.
spiderweb
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Ben
Depends on your doctor and how much s/he sees fit to test in order to check the boxes.
spiderweb
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Ben
Sure there is. But if a Class III were required for driving cars and vans, you'd have a revolt.
spiderweb
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Ben
[QUOTE="A_Valkyrie, post: 2352869]
If a pilot can drive a car to the doctors clinic and walk into the office, then the doctor would be unlikely not to sign the form. It is that easy.[/QUOTE]
We'd love it if this is true, but I doubt there is any evidence of your assertion.
If a pilot can drive a car to the doctors clinic and walk into the office, then the doctor would be unlikely not to sign the form. It is that easy.[/QUOTE]
We'd love it if this is true, but I doubt there is any evidence of your assertion.
spiderweb
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Let's all hope most of our experiences will be this good.Another BasicMed pirep:
I went to my AME for this, in and out in 30 min, saved $70 and gained 2 extra years vs. the 3rd class.
Actually, the FAA had a proposed rulemaking that was more generous to the pilots. It got stomped on at the DOT level. You can argue that maybe the FAA passed it up knowing it wasn't going to get issued, but I don't give the FAA that much credit.
I used to be able to walk to my PCP. For a very short period of time, I could walk to my AME.
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Bro do you even lift
my normal AME is NOT doing basicmed and neither is my PCP. pretty cool.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm a year away from the end of my class III. I just had my annual physical with my PCP, the office already told me he'd be good with Basic Med. He doesn't normally test my vision, and I know the form asks: "Vision: (distant, near, and intermediate vision, field of vision, color vision, and ocular alignment)" and a checkbox.
My doc, during the physical, simply asks if I've had my eyes checked lately. I always get my vision exam the month before I see him, so it's an easy answer for me. Anyone with Basic Medical experience have their examining doctor do any kind of vision test?
My doc, during the physical, simply asks if I've had my eyes checked lately. I always get my vision exam the month before I see him, so it's an easy answer for me. Anyone with Basic Medical experience have their examining doctor do any kind of vision test?
exncsurfer
Pattern Altitude
He may start when his appointments get sparse.
MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
Mine didn't but I had a note from my ophthalmologist that my corrected vision was prefect despite having a retina disorder.
exncsurfer
Pattern Altitude
I did mine today, they have an eye chart you read from a distance, then one you hold in your hand for near vision, you can wear glasses if you need them, they won't let you cheat if you have long arms, haha, 'hold it about...here' OK. Then the color vision circles with the 'hidden' numbers in them. But mine was an AME so he had all the standard stuff they use, not sure what a PCP would do if they don't have eye charts.
N3368K
Cleared for Takeoff
That proposal was never made public. There was much speculation, but never any details to really know if it was more generous or not. I don't really think the FAA ever really expected it to see the light of day.
N3368K
Cleared for Takeoff
Mine did, despite my having recently been to eye doc. I passed just fine, with reading glasses for the close up stuff. My BasicMed doc is a former AME so he is pretty familiar with the FAA medical. I also happen to share a hangar with him.
azure
Final Approach
Yeah the vision testing is the iffy part for non-AMEs - not so much acuity testing, but color vision and especially ocular alignment. I went to an AME for my BasicMed exam, and I think this is the safest option (assuming you have a willing AME, unless your PCP knows everything that is required and is okay with it. I suspected, and later confirmed, that even though my PCP was okay with the principle of the exam, he would not have known how to test those two aspects of my vision.
Pulled the trigger on Basic Med today, after being careful to let my III Class expire the last day of September. Used my PCP, and he was fine with it; just sent him the guide from AOPA's site, and printed the checklist from the same place. Took it with me to an already scheduled appointment, and all done. Came home this afternoon, printed the course completion certificate, and filled out the completion form on AOPA.
Couple notes:
AVEMCO didn't care; they're fine with whatever medical I have, Basic Med, III Class, whatever.
I used my PCP because he has a concierge practice, doesn't accept insurance, and I pay him a set fee per year. This was "no additional charge"
I didn't consider using use an AME; if something came up on the exam, I'd rather deal with my own doctor than the FAA's.
That's it:
1. Take the AOPA course and print the course completion certificate
3. Print the checklist, take it to your Doctor for the exam.
4. Go to AOPA, fill out the form for the completion of the exam.
5. Save the exam checklist from the doctor, save the course certificate. I stuffed them in my logbook, but it really doesn't matter where you keep them
6. Have a driver's license and your pilot certificate with you when you fly
Some PCPs may go overboard, or be scared off, particularly if they don't do exams for other types of endeavors or jobs that require them. I'm in suburban DC, so I think most PCPs here see this kind of thing regularly. Really, if you're fit to drive, you're fit to fly a smaller GA aircraft.
Couple notes:
AVEMCO didn't care; they're fine with whatever medical I have, Basic Med, III Class, whatever.
I used my PCP because he has a concierge practice, doesn't accept insurance, and I pay him a set fee per year. This was "no additional charge"
I didn't consider using use an AME; if something came up on the exam, I'd rather deal with my own doctor than the FAA's.
That's it:
1. Take the AOPA course and print the course completion certificate
3. Print the checklist, take it to your Doctor for the exam.
4. Go to AOPA, fill out the form for the completion of the exam.
5. Save the exam checklist from the doctor, save the course certificate. I stuffed them in my logbook, but it really doesn't matter where you keep them
6. Have a driver's license and your pilot certificate with you when you fly
Some PCPs may go overboard, or be scared off, particularly if they don't do exams for other types of endeavors or jobs that require them. I'm in suburban DC, so I think most PCPs here see this kind of thing regularly. Really, if you're fit to drive, you're fit to fly a smaller GA aircraft.
Brad Z
Final Approach
Actually there was strong internal support within the FAA for it (with one obvious organizational exception, of course). This initiated at a time when the shift to risk-based regulation and oversight.
I believe the original FAA rulemaking would have hit the street had it not been for the Germanwings accident, and the unwillingness for the administration at the time to support an effort to ease medical restrictions at a time when everyone was suggesting increased medical oversight for pilots (never mind we're talking totally different populations of pilots, to the executive branch it was all about the optics of it).
While the proposal never hit the streets, I don't think the content would have surprised anyone following proposals made by the GA advocacy groups. While BM has the exam with a state licensed physician requirement, it permits a lot more operations than those proposals would have allowed.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Used to be I needed a battery of tests and a rather long letter from my doc about a very well controlled case of gout which hasn't flared in memory, and wasn't all that bad when it did. I'm one of the healthiest people I know and I had trouble getting the 3rd class medical.
Oh, but it gets better. An AME decided that my pal has sleep apnea, because he 1) is male 2) is over 50 and 3) has a thick neck. I am NOT making this up. Basic Med couldn't come too soon.
Oh, but it gets better. An AME decided that my pal has sleep apnea, because he 1) is male 2) is over 50 and 3) has a thick neck. I am NOT making this up. Basic Med couldn't come too soon.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think that's part of the new OSA screening protocol that went into effect last year.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Yup. Utterly stupid. My pal doesn't have sleep apnea, and any MD worth is or her salt could figure that out very quickly indeed. Human beings don't fit tidy little metrics. Just doesn't work that way.
Oh, and that AME tried to get me with this because I am 1) male and 2) over 50. No, I don't snore. I have never heard myself snore, so obviously I don't.
A_Valkyrie
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I think that is the FAA's specialty when it comes to medicals...all conditions fit in tidy little boxes. You have "this disease" and that means "this". Now prove to us that you are fit to fly and please do so in this amount of time. Thank goodness we are allowed to have our doctors make those decisions now.
spiderweb
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Ben
I don't understand. Are you saying that some AMEs now are actually denying medicals based on being an over-50 male with a thick neck? If true, we need to know who they are, and I am not joking.