Go-around issue

Lio_Rey

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Lio_Rey
Hi guys,

If you could help me understand the loss of control of the flight path while going-around by answering a short survey, it would be really nice !!

I leave the link here: http://soorvey.com/?s=27DBWYLIRNQ


THANK YOU
 
Hi guys,

If you could help me understand the loss of control of the flight path while going-around by answering a short survey, it would be really nice !!

I leave the link here: http://soorvey.com/?s=27DBWYLIRNQ


THANK YOU
Why are you conducting the survey? School? FAA? Other? Who is your target audience? Who wants the results of the survey? What are you trying to determine?

Note: survey is for airline pilots.
 
Why are you conducting the survey? School? FAA? Other? Who is your target audience? Who wants the results of the survey? What are you trying to determine?

Note: survey is for airline pilots.

It also doesn't seem to differentiate between a missed approach and a visual go around, which are quite different animals.
 
Are you sure you want just airline pilots to respond,the first question asks how long have you been an airline pilot.
 
I'll be surprised if the OP returns here.
 
It is for a thesis work. I am an approach controller student. I need pilots' feedbacks.
 
It is for a thesis work. I am an approach controller student. I need pilots' feedbacks.
If you're looking for large number of airline pilots, try pprune.com. There are a few here, but many more over on pprune.
 
If you're looking for large number of airline pilots, try pprune.com. There are a few here, but many more over on pprune.

Or better yet, Airline Pilot Centrals forum.
 
Wow, that survey is tough to read. English is poor and understanding of aviation is weak at best. Here is an example...

Have you already experienced a loss of control of the glide path while executing a go-around ? *

Have I already? What? There's no glide path on a go around. Another two questions asked how many GAs you've done as PF and a separate as PM. Well, A. Nobody logs them, and B. We alternate legs so it'd average out to 50/50 per position.

Think I'm gonna stop opening these survey threads...
:(


Also...

If EVERY SINGLE question requires an answer then "*=Answer Required" is redundant.
 
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Wow, that survey is tough to read. English is poor and understanding of aviation is weak at best. Here is an example...



Have I already? What? There's no glide path on a go around. Another two questions asked how many GAs you've done as PF and a separate as PM. Well, A. Nobody logs them, and B. We alternate legs so it'd average out to 50/50 per position.

Think I'm gonna stop opening these survey threads...
:(


Also...

If EVERY SINGLE question requires an answer then "*=Answer Required" is redundant.

Yup. :yes:
 
Why the survey threads? Is there a college program somewhere that makes this an assignment?
 
Why the survey threads? Is there a college program somewhere that makes this an assignment?
he said "thesis". Thinking back it took me 2 years of hard work to write my thesis. I don't recall using any surveys.
 
Why the survey threads? Is there a college program somewhere that makes this an assignment?

Most masters level classes require a research project that requires a survey and compilation of data to prove or disprove a thesis.

Normally the proof is in the pudding (question design) bad question format, bad data, difficult process and reporting.
 
he said "thesis". Thinking back it took me 2 years of hard work to write my thesis. I don't recall using any surveys.

Wrote mine in about 4 months, no survey.
 
Why the survey threads? Is there a college program somewhere that makes this an assignment?


ERAU seems to send the most of them here.

Or should I say they find us and are looking for suckers who'll get about three pages in and realize the questions are so badly written they close the browser and go beat their head on a table, realizing the person who wrote it is soon to graduate with a Masters in Aviation.

Then one remembers it's just a business and they're about cranking out the numbers, and not everyone gets to grow up and be an astronaut. :)
 

Yes.

When I need to go around, I'm usually configured for landing and slow, and I have a good view of the ground. That means pushing the nose forward to maintain altitude while speed builds and the flaps retract.

On a missed approach, I have no more than 10 deg flaps (and in a 172, I'm configured clean) and I'm at a much faster speed -- generally faster than Vy, so I have to slow down. Then, the important thing is to get away from the ground that I can't see and climb immediately.

Confusing one with the other can be a bad thing, and they have very different risks of loss of control. Disorientation in a go-around is not a significant risk. On a missed approach, it absolutely is. On the other hand, stalling in a missed approach is not likely. It sure does happen on go-arounds.
 
Yes.

When I need to go around, I'm usually configured for landing and slow, and I have a good view of the ground. That means pushing the nose forward to maintain altitude while speed builds and the flaps retract.

On a missed approach, I have no more than 10 deg flaps (and in a 172, I'm configured clean) and I'm at a much faster speed -- generally faster than Vy, so I have to slow down. Then, the important thing is to get away from the ground that I can't see and climb immediately.

Confusing one with the other can be a bad thing, and they have very different risks of loss of control. Disorientation in a go-around is not a significant risk. On a missed approach, it absolutely is. On the other hand, stalling in a missed approach is not likely. It sure does happen on go-arounds.

Okay... Thanks for the explanation. In larger and heavier airplanes it's the same, as we are fully configured and stabilized well before a MAP/DA.
 
Yes.

When I need to go around, I'm usually configured for landing and slow, and I have a good view of the ground. That means pushing the nose forward to maintain altitude while speed builds and the flaps retract.

On a missed approach, I have no more than 10 deg flaps (and in a 172, I'm configured clean) and I'm at a much faster speed -- generally faster than Vy, so I have to slow down. Then, the important thing is to get away from the ground that I can't see and climb immediately.

Confusing one with the other can be a bad thing, and they have very different risks of loss of control. Disorientation in a go-around is not a significant risk. On a missed approach, it absolutely is. On the other hand, stalling in a missed approach is not likely. It sure does happen on go-arounds.

You're profile is not normal I think. To my mind it's crazy to configure the plane AFTER reaching the DA. Why wouldn't you fly IMC profile the same as VMC?
 
You're profile is not normal I think. To my mind it's crazy to configure the plane AFTER reaching the DA. Why wouldn't you fly IMC profile the same as VMC?

In a nutshell, to get your butt away from the ground in a missed approach as fast as possible.

60 KIAS with full flap in a 172 requires several seconds level, while fiddling with flaps. It's one thing to do that in VMC, but another 200 feet up in the soup.

Honestly, below even a 200 AGL DA with the runway in sight, I can easily get the airplane configured and slowed before touching down with minimal float. I did it last night.
 
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To each their own. Changing the wing, adding drag, changing pitch, adding power all seems like a lot to do 100' above the ground. I suppose any runway with an ILS is stupid long enough to give plenty of cushion to a 172....
 
To each their own. Changing the wing, adding drag, changing pitch, adding power all seems like a lot to do 100' above the ground. I suppose any runway with an ILS is stupid long enough to give plenty of cushion to a 172....

I agree.... However, after being here a while I've given up on that line of thought. You will not win here at POA, even though you may be right.

Just roll with it...
 
To each their own. Changing the wing, adding drag, changing pitch, adding power all seems like a lot to do 100' above the ground. I suppose any runway with an ILS is stupid long enough to give plenty of cushion to a 172....


Really depends on how slow you think you want to land. 172 or 182 will land just fine with flaps at 10. You also have quite a bit of time at 100' only doing 90 knots or so to reconfigure if you want to.

Not huge amounts of time but if you're familiar with the airplane and concerned with braking action, maybe worth it, maybe not.

Break out at minimums, maybe leave it alone. Break out at 500' AGL you've got "all day" to mess with it in a bugsmasher.

Not so much in something faster.

The critical piece would seem to be having a plan and sticking to it unless there's a good reason to change it.

In my airplane it's nice to know I can transition just fine from anywhere from 90-110 knots, to flying at 35-40 knots at touchdown if the runway looks like a skating rink covered in snot.

But I don't recommend it to anyone that hasn't tried it before in better conditions.

Definitely wouldn't need to add much, if any, power. I'll float right past the TDZE markers in either configuration if I add any power after breaking out at ILS minimums. There is *always* a power change at DH for me or I'll be 2000' down the runway when I touch down. No need at all to land at 90+. I'm WAY above 1.3 Vso on an approach at that speed.

To do what most larger stuff does (high power, tons of drag, fly it on in the same configuration) I'd need to be at nearly full throttle with flaps at 40 and doing like 55-60 down the entire approach. Perfectly "stable" and not much change required until only a few feet above the runway.

But flying approaches that way would take a month just to get from the middle marker area to DH. Maybe someday I'll need to do it, but I doubt it.

Adjusting to the equipment utilized, seems not beyond the grasp of most pilots. Most approaches take a long-assed time in a bug smasher.
 
Really depends on how slow you think you want to land. 172 or 182 will land just fine with flaps at 10. You also have quite a bit of time at 100' only doing 90 knots or so to reconfigure if you want to.

Not huge amounts of time but if you're familiar with the airplane and concerned with braking action, maybe worth it, maybe not.

Break out at minimums, maybe leave it alone. Break out at 500' AGL you've got "all day" to mess with it in a bugsmasher.

Not so much in something faster.

The critical piece would seem to be having a plan and sticking to it unless there's a good reason to change it.

In my airplane it's nice to know I can transition just fine from anywhere from 90-110 knots, to flying at 35-40 knots at touchdown if the runway looks like a skating rink covered in snot.

But I don't recommend it to anyone that hasn't tried it before in better conditions.

Definitely wouldn't need to add much, if any, power. I'll float right past the TDZE markers in either configuration if I add any power after breaking out at ILS minimums. There is *always* a power change at DH for me or I'll be 2000' down the runway when I touch down. No need at all to land at 90+. I'm WAY above 1.3 Vso on an approach at that speed.

To do what most larger stuff does (high power, tons of drag, fly it on in the same configuration) I'd need to be at nearly full throttle with flaps at 40 and doing like 55-60 down the entire approach. Perfectly "stable" and not much change required until only a few feet above the runway.

But flying approaches that way would take a month just to get from the middle marker area to DH. Maybe someday I'll need to do it, but I doubt it.

Adjusting to the equipment utilized, seems not beyond the grasp of most pilots. Most approaches take a long-assed time in a bug smasher.
I'm sure I could also do it in my airplane (well, the plane I fly). That doesn't necessarily make it a wise decision. Actually it makes it so unwise the company says NO, and FOQUA (sp?) will tell on you. Completely configured and on speed with engines spoiled by 1000 agl, and 500 if visual is mandatory. I understand it's a bigger airplane, but those are good parameters for all.
 
I'm sure I could also do it in my airplane (well, the plane I fly). That doesn't necessarily make it a wise decision. Actually it makes it so unwise the company says NO, and FOQUA (sp?) will tell on you. Completely configured and on speed with engines spoiled by 1000 agl, and 500 if visual is mandatory. I understand it's a bigger airplane, but those are good parameters for all.


Doesn't really make it an unwise one either.

"On speed" in a bug smasher doing 90 knots is at least 40 knots above stall, and it's generally agreed it's stupid to land going that fast. And the system generally doesn't take too kindly to 50 knot approaches.

If you want to do it that way, go for it. You can fly a Cessna like the big iron. You'll be getting a lot of "please maintain best forward speed" requests.

If I do it in the STOL airplane, 1.3 Vso would be somewhere just above 40 knots. Call it 45 for mom and the dogs. It'd be about 10 minutes from the Procedure turn to the airport on most approaches. Could probably vector three of you into the final in front of me and you'd all be down and stopped before I got there.

My DPE *during my checkride* recommended flying them at 110 after seeing how the STOL kit makes the airplane do a very slow oscillation in pitch and speed at 90.

He's been flying big iron for longer than I've been a pilot and had no problem with me hanging him from his seat belt at DH on the last one to get the airplane slowed to some reasonable speed to land at. (Actually the last one was non-precision but same deal.)

He was smart enough to understand the requirements for the equipment being flown and how it interrelates to there being not one, but three KC-135s in the pattern with us that day, shooting T&Gs.

If I'd have flown the approach at 45, the tower would have spun us, multiple times. We might still be circling the Lincoln airport, in fact.

Hey if I'm all alone with nobody else around and not picking up any ice and the tower doesn't mind, maybe I'll fly it at 60. No real reason to, though. Even at 60 I need to lose 20+ knots of energy to land the thing properly...

It's not "unwise" to know your equipment and the limitations on you, including that there's a huge gap between a "normal approach speed" and the landing speed of my aircraft. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

If I put a 182 driver in my airplane and tell them to fly the approach and land, they're going to chew up 3000'+ of runway and be touching down 20-30 knots faster than necessary, nowhere near stall speed. Any gust of wind will launch them skyward again. It's just the nature of the modifications done to it.

The first time they did it, they would gain "wisdom" and probably know they needed to get the power off at breakout at 90 knots or they'll be landing at the airport the next county over. Only takes once to figure it out.
 
Doesn't really make it an unwise one either.

"On speed" in a bug smasher doing 90 knots is at least 40 knots above stall, and it's generally agreed it's stupid to land going that fast. And the system generally doesn't take too kindly to 50 knot approaches.

If you want to do it that way, go for it. You can fly a Cessna like the big iron. You'll be getting a lot of "please maintain best forward speed" requests.

If I do it in the STOL airplane, 1.3 Vso would be somewhere just above 40 knots. Call it 45 for mom and the dogs. It'd be about 10 minutes from the Procedure turn to the airport on most approaches. Could probably vector three of you into the final in front of me and you'd all be down and stopped before I got there.

My DPE *during my checkride* recommended flying them at 110 after seeing how the STOL kit makes the airplane do a very slow oscillation in pitch and speed at 90.

He's been flying big iron for longer than I've been a pilot and had no problem with me hanging him from his seat belt at DH on the last one to get the airplane slowed to some reasonable speed to land at. (Actually the last one was non-precision but same deal.)

He was smart enough to understand the requirements for the equipment being flown and how it interrelates to there being not one, but three KC-135s in the pattern with us that day, shooting T&Gs.

If I'd have flown the approach at 45, the tower would have spun us, multiple times. We might still be circling the Lincoln airport, in fact.

Hey if I'm all alone with nobody else around and not picking up any ice and the tower doesn't mind, maybe I'll fly it at 60. No real reason to, though. Even at 60 I need to lose 20+ knots of energy to land the thing properly...

It's not "unwise" to know your equipment and the limitations on you, including that there's a huge gap between a "normal approach speed" and the landing speed of my aircraft. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

If I put a 182 driver in my airplane and tell them to fly the approach and land, they're going to chew up 3000'+ of runway and be touching down 20-30 knots faster than necessary, nowhere near stall speed. Any gust of wind will launch them skyward again. It's just the nature of the modifications done to it.

The first time they did it, they would gain "wisdom" and probably know they needed to get the power off at breakout at 90 knots or they'll be landing at the airport the next county over. Only takes once to figure it out.
No, no... I get your point. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place and simply trying to accommodate. I get it.
Yet, on other threads, many are saying "tough bananas", if you're not comfy just say no.

Personally I feel that an ILS to minimums should be a bit more "stabilized" than a visual approach. Breaking out at 200 and configuring at 100 means not stabalized until almost touchdown. I think that's a mistake and could bite you.
 
Breaking out at 200 and configuring at 100 means not stabalized until almost touchdown. I think that's a mistake and could bite you.


It could. That why it has to be SOP and practiced in my particular airplane. Apparently the DPE thought it was fine. That or he had a hot lunch date after the check ride. Haha.

What's SOP and practiced in other airplanes is different.

I was just pointing out that it's not particularly "unwise" to know what you need to do, even if it's not the best way to do it in another aircraft -- as some were claiming.
 
I certainly wouldn't advocate flying PT to runway at 60 kts. But FAF to runway or 1,000' to rwy seems a fair compromise. 200 feet just seems very low to be throwing levers and pitching around fumbling with power.

What would you do if you only saw approach lights at mins? Configure at 100' above TDZE?
 
What would you do if you only saw approach lights at mins? Configure at 100' above TDZE?

Land with current (low) flaps and float down the runway. The shortest runway I've seen an ILS on is over 5000 feet long.

It's the same answer if there is any indication of ice.

Honestly, though, you have some 30 seconds to reconfigure even from 200 AGL. While that's short to drop Cessna gear, it's plenty to drop flaps to full and yank the power even in a gawdawful slow 182.

The aircraft itself is less stable at 60 than it is at 90, and if you get slow (especially in a 182) below 60, you'll start to sink like a stone.
 
The passengers are going to be mad because they miss their next flight or appointment and the management is gonna blame it on me...
 
How in the world is this thread still going... it must be the title :dunno::rolleyes2:
 
Land with current (low) flaps and float down the runway. The shortest runway I've seen an ILS on is over 5000 feet long.

Mostly, but not always. Check KCRQ ILS 24 with a 150' drop off at the end or the runway.
 
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