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cowman

cowman

Final Approach
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Cowman
I just passed my private checkride early in Jul. I had planned to get my instrument later on but after a couple of real world experiences I think I want it sooner. Spending too much time flying around at 2000-3500' or sitting around waiting for the clouds to move up another 500'.

I know (almost) nothing about instrument flying so I asked the CFII who finished out my private and he told me to go "buy the DVDs" and get my written out of the way first and that the flying part would be "easy". I see that there are a couple of choices out there, not sure what I should get. I'm flying a garmin 430 equipped Piper Archer if that makes any difference in the examples.... I'd love to improve my knowledge of the 430. I also want something I can sit back and watch for a couple hours without falling asleep. Maybe someone can point me to a specific training course based on that?


Also, in regards to the airplane.... it's not currently IFR certified but it had been in the past, I just didn't bother to spend the extra time/money to do more than VFR since I wasn't rated yet. That should just be money and paperwork... I also need to update the database on my 430, I know there's a subscription to buy and they send out some kind of physical data card but beyond that I don't really know how it's done... I assume it's not a big deal and I'll be able to figure it out.

Now, the biggie is my airplane doesn't have any kind of autopilot. I asked the local avionics guy and he thought I'd be in for $10k or so for an stec-20 with installation. I wanted one but for VFR I'd pretty much decided that for that money I could just put up with hand flying everywhere which has been fine. I'm wondering if I should revisit that calculation for IFR? I know how easily a course can drift while hand flying if I need to go digging for something in foreflight/some other tasks.
 
I have done a bit of hand flying IFR, my instrument ride was all hand flying, no GPS, my ATP ride was also all hand flying.

Your plane doesn't have to be current IFR to do all your training and check ride, it'll just keep you out of IMC (which you should train in as much as possible).

I'll second what your CFI said, get the king videos and start on them, also you can download a free GNS430 simulator from garmin to practice with (google it).

I'd also want to be sure my CFI had access to a simulator, that is VERY important when doing instrument training.
 
depending on your existing avionics, and how much you love your plane, you could consider selling your plane and buy one set up the way you like. I know it's easier said than done.

Is your 430 a WAAS unit? The ideal setup would be an IFR GPS such as the 430, preferably with WAAS linked to an autopilot through GPSS. For whatever reason, getting autopilots in certified aircraft is stupid expensive for what you get.

Upgrading your existing plane is not a bad idea depending on what you own, but you could put another 15K into your plane for AP and GPSS. That's fine if you plan to keep your plane for a while, but you'll get raped on return value if you sell anytime soon.
 
Probably smart to learn how to fly IFR before you start outfitting your plane for IFR.

I mean maybe a vertical card compass, but don't go too crazy until you get some time under your belt
 
Yeah my 430 is a WAAS, only thing needed there is a database update.

This is my panel for reference... sorry for the quality it's the only pic I have.
iphone222.jpg


The only real itch I have for an upgrade is an autopilot... and maybe LED position lights and an HID or LED landing light. If I replace the airplane I know I'll want bigger/better/faster and then the costs to fly start snowballing and I'm not ready for that just yet.

If money were no object I'd probably go buy something like a Saratoga with a GTN750 in the panel... but money is most definitely an object and the Archer is getting me where I want to go just fine so far.
 
I read the Rod Machado book, the Instrument Flying Handbook, watched the Sportys DVDs and used Sportys Study Buddy (http://www.sportys.com/studybuddy) to pass my written. Then, as I got into the flying, I reviewed the resources as necessary to help better comprehend things. Though, I'd argue that I've never read books or watched DVDs that cover topics like this that aren't sleep-inducing. It takes some effort, but you'll get through it.

As for the plane, I trained and tested in about as simple a setup as you could have: two VORs and CDIs (one with glideslope). That's it. No GPS. No autopilot. Do I wish I had that stuff now that I'm flying in the system? Sure, but I can always lobby to upgrade the club plane or buy something more fitting my mission if I decide it's something I "need". For your training and checkride, I'd get your plane IFR certified (so you can fly in IMC) and then decide what you need longer term once that's done. But, for me, doing the training in an airplane I was already familiar in seemed to make a lot of tasks simpler. (Not that they couldn't have been learned in another plane, but why add to the overall workload?)
 
that panel should be fine. personally, I wouldn't get the autopilot unless you know you're keeping the plane for a while. I would definitely get the plane certified for IMC. you don't have to do it, but you can't fly into IFR conditions without it; kinda useless in other words. I would also get the garmin database updated. I have heard of people getting the readers for free from garmin when they paid for the subscription, but your mileage may vary.
 
When you do your x countries building for the 40 hour requirement, get flight following as often as possible and get really comfortable talking with ATC. Comms are really important for IFR. Also try to keep nail you altitudes ad headings on your flights, Try to get heading +/- 10 degrees and altitude +/- 100 feet.
 
I did the King videos twice... once in the VHS era (mid-'90s) but never took the written. Then as my punishment, I did the King series again. Kinda funny when they have to cut in footage for things that have changed and it suddenly switches to Old Martha!

Then a couple years ago I got serious again and went through the videos online (they were NOT iOS friendly in 2012 - you had to use a flash browser like Puffin or a PC/Mac).

Just for good measure, I attended an Aviation Seminars IFR prep class. It is a live instructor-led finishing course, not a stand-alone course. It was helpful to go over things that I thought I understood from the vids but actually didn't understand quite as well as I thought.

Any of the written test prep books are great. All of the test questions and answers are published so you can take an unlimited number of practice tests from various paper or online sources.

Gleim and ASA are commonly used for written prep.

Another resource is the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook - downloadable for free from the FAA website.

Grab Aviation Weather Services also - another free FAA download.

I don't recall if they've changed the instrument written since 2012 but, when I took it, it was infamously obtuse with lots of questions about instruments that few pilots use today and few questions about the tools they do use.
 
cowman said:
I know (almost) nothing about instrument flying so I asked the CFII who finished out my private and he told me to go "buy the DVDs" and get my written out of the way first and that the flying part would be "easy". I see that there are a couple of choices out there, not sure what I should get. I'm flying a garmin 430 equipped Piper Archer if that makes any difference in the examples.... I'd love to improve my knowledge of the 430. I also want something I can sit back and watch for a couple hours without falling asleep. Maybe someone can point me to a specific training course based on that?
Click to expand...
Most folks don't seem to learn effectively just sitting back and watching for a couple of hours. Interaction is generally considered an important element of learning. For that reason, I recommend Jeppesen's Flite School interactive computer-based training System for independent study. Likewise, to really learn the 430, I highly recommend the 430/530 interactive computer-based program by Electronic Flight Solutions (the predominantly light blue cover) available from Sun Flight Avionics Training.

Also, in regards to the airplane.... it's not currently IFR certified but it had been in the past, I just didn't bother to spend the extra time/money to do more than VFR since I wasn't rated yet. That should just be money and paperwork... I also need to update the database on my 430, I know there's a subscription to buy and they send out some kind of physical data card but beyond that I don't really know how it's done... I assume it's not a big deal and I'll be able to figure it out.
Click to expand...
All correct. Assuming the altimeter and static system are in good shape, the 91.411 certification should only be about $250. The subscription for the 430 database will run $300/year or so depending on coverage, and there's a one-time purchase of the data card programmer which plugs into your USB port for about $50.

Now, the biggie is my airplane doesn't have any kind of autopilot. I asked the local avionics guy and he thought I'd be in for $10k or so for an stec-20 with installation. I wanted one but for VFR I'd pretty much decided that for that money I could just put up with hand flying everywhere which has been fine. I'm wondering if I should revisit that calculation for IFR? I know how easily a course can drift while hand flying if I need to go digging for something in foreflight/some other tasks.
Click to expand...
No real need unless you plan to do a lot of long flights, and that's a fatigue issue more than anything else. About 1/3-1/2 of my 10-day IR course trainees don't have an autopilot, and they do fine without it. And I don't have one in my Tiger, either, although I do what most would consider pretty heavy IFR all the time in it.
 
James331 said:
I mean maybe a vertical card compass, but don't go too crazy until you get some time under your belt
Click to expand...
I've had mostly bad experiences with those in my clients' planes, and with a 430 already installed, you're never going to be flying off your mag compass unless you lose the vacuum/heading indicator the same time the satellites quit.

BTW, unless you have some special attachment to that ADF, lose it. You don't want to have to do the training on it to be able to fly an NDB approach on the practical test, and with a 430W already installed, odds on you ever flying an NDB approach operationally are somewhere between slim and none.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I've had mostly bad experiences with those in my clients' planes, and with a 430 already installed, you're never going to be flying off your mag compass unless you lose the vacuum/heading indicator the same time the satellites quit.
Click to expand...


?

How so. I've had em in all sorts of planes and they always behaved well for me.
 
James331 said:
?

How so. I've had em in all sorts of planes and they always behaved well for me.
Click to expand...
My guess on "how so" is gear drag and I've seen a couple of dozen in client aircraft, with over half being up to 30 degrees off in one direction and 30 off the other way in another direction. Since with a 430 you'll pretty much never use it, and odds are it will just get you setting your unslaved HI inaccurately (which causes a lot of confusion), better just to spend your money in something more useful.
 
Ron Levy said:
My guess on "how so" is gear drag and I've seen a couple of dozen in client aircraft, with over half being up to 30 degrees off in one direction and 30 off the other way in another direction. Since with a 430 you'll pretty much never use it, and odds are it will just get you setting your unslaved HI inaccurately (which causes a lot of confusion), better just to spend your money in something more useful.
Click to expand...


Most of the issues with the PAI-700 series vertical card compasses are due to magnetism in the airplane. Owning a Mooney with a steel cage I learned that any wiring needs to be away from the cage. Even if you degauss, the issue will come back unless you address the underlying cause for the magnetism.

Once the wiring is clear, there still may be interference with the airframe. Precision sells a compensation ball kit to allow you to zero out interference. Here is what it looks like on my compass:

9ady2apa.jpg


I should add that I do a routine compass compare with my dual Aspen AHRS and all are usually within a couple of degrees of each other.
 
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Ron Levy said:
My guess on "how so" is gear drag and I've seen a couple of dozen in client aircraft, with over half being up to 30 degrees off in one direction and 30 off the other way in another direction. Since with a 430 you'll pretty much never use it, and odds are it will just get you setting your unslaved HI inaccurately (which causes a lot of confusion), better just to spend your money in something more useful.
Click to expand...


I never experienced this but I agree that once you can get the information elsewhere, the compass has become a relic (at least in my plane).
 
rbridges said:
that panel should be fine. personally, I wouldn't get the autopilot unless you know you're keeping the plane for a while. I would definitely get the plane certified for IMC. you don't have to do it, but you can't fly into IFR conditions without it; kinda useless in other words. I would also get the garmin database updated. I have heard of people getting the readers for free from garmin when they paid for the subscription, but your mileage may vary.
Click to expand...


I second the recommendation on the AP unless you know for certain you will keep the plane for a bit.

I crossed this bridge back in the 90s when I knew my Mooney was a plane I was keeping for a while. I installed an STEC 60-2 and couldn't be happier.

As mentioned by Ron above, you can do fine without an AP. I flew mine for 7 years IFR before I realized the benefits of offloading some of the workload during longer trips. It also gave me some piece of mind showing my wife how to engage and operate it in case something happened to me.

I flew my plane for 21 years IFR with basically less than what you have in your plane. I was strictly a VOR/ILS guy until I made the decision in late 2012 to upgrade the panel. After the upgrade, I couldn't believe how much I was missing out on! GPSS roll steering is something to behold.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, unless you have some special attachment to that ADF, lose it. You don't want to have to do the training on it to be able to fly an NDB approach on the practical test, and with a 430W already installed, odds on you ever flying an NDB approach operationally are somewhere between slim and none.
Click to expand...

I think the benefit of receiving AM radio is worth having to learn NDB approaches. :lol:
 
Meh, doing a raw data NDB isn't that bad, just scared little CFIIs instill fear into their students.

A NDB ain't very accurate compared to all other approaches, it won't get you down all that low, and realistically if I was going to redo your panel I'd sell it, but by all means if you don't do a major revamp keep it and use the heck out of it while there are still NDBs.

It's not the boogie man crummy CFIIs make it out to be.
 
James331 said:
Meh, doing a raw data NDB isn't that bad, just scared little CFIIs instill fear into their students.

A NDB ain't very accurate compared to all other approaches, it won't get you down all that low, and realistically if I was going to redo your panel I'd sell it, but by all means if you don't do a major revamp keep it and use the heck out of it while there are still NDBs.

It's not the boogie man crummy CFIIs make it out to be.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but it adds time to the training and with a 430W in the plane already, you're never going to use it for real. When you do a 10-day intensive course, that's important. It's significant even for a traditional course. So why bother? Lose it and carry another gallon of gas -- more likely to help you.
 
This is a great thread with great information. Thank you, guys, for the good answers.

I too am studying for IR and I wonder about a few "small" details:
1) if the checkride is done under the hood and I assume in VMC, does the actual airplane need to be IFR certified for it?
2) how many different kinds of approaches and holds are usually performed on an instrument checkride?
3) if the airplane has only one Nav with one CDI (&GS), would it still be possible to do at least part of the checkride in it and then do other approaches/holds in a sim that would have a full 430, ADF, DME etc?

Thank you
Lou
 
BigBadLou said:
This is a great thread with great information. Thank you, guys, for the good answers.

I too am studying for IR and I wonder about a few "small" details:
1) if the checkride is done under the hood and I assume in VMC, does the actual airplane need to be IFR certified for it?
2) how many different kinds of approaches and holds are usually performed on an instrument checkride?
3) if the airplane has only one Nav with one CDI (&GS), would it still be possible to do at least part of the checkride in it and then do other approaches/holds in a sim that would have a full 430, ADF, DME etc?

Thank you
Lou
Click to expand...


I may get pounded on this, but here goes:

1) It doesn't have to be instrument certified during training, not sure about checkride. Definitely no IMC unless it's certified
2) IIRC, it's 3 approaches. I think one has to be precision. I did GPS, ILS and DME-arc
3) You only need one nav. It makes it easier to have 2.
 
You might want to keep your plane and look for a partnership plane to buy into while you are working on your IR. A plane with an autopilot and GPS. After you get your rating, sell out of the plane. WIN WIN

cowman said:
I just passed my private checkride early in Jul. I had planned to get my instrument later on but after a couple of real world experiences I think I want it sooner. Spending too much time flying around at 2000-3500' or sitting around waiting for the clouds to move up another 500'.

I know (almost) nothing about instrument flying so I asked the CFII who finished out my private and he told me to go "buy the DVDs" and get my written out of the way first and that the flying part would be "easy". I see that there are a couple of choices out there, not sure what I should get. I'm flying a garmin 430 equipped Piper Archer if that makes any difference in the examples.... I'd love to improve my knowledge of the 430. I also want something I can sit back and watch for a couple hours without falling asleep. Maybe someone can point me to a specific training course based on that?


Also, in regards to the airplane.... it's not currently IFR certified but it had been in the past, I just didn't bother to spend the extra time/money to do more than VFR since I wasn't rated yet. That should just be money and paperwork... I also need to update the database on my 430, I know there's a subscription to buy and they send out some kind of physical data card but beyond that I don't really know how it's done... I assume it's not a big deal and I'll be able to figure it out.

Now, the biggie is my airplane doesn't have any kind of autopilot. I asked the local avionics guy and he thought I'd be in for $10k or so for an stec-20 with installation. I wanted one but for VFR I'd pretty much decided that for that money I could just put up with hand flying everywhere which has been fine. I'm wondering if I should revisit that calculation for IFR? I know how easily a course can drift while hand flying if I need to go digging for something in foreflight/some other tasks.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
unless you have some special attachment to that ADF, lose it. You don't want to have to do the training on it to be able to fly an NDB approach on the practical test
Click to expand...

This was my first thought looking at that photo, but I couldn't remember if the IFR ride is like the Private ride -- can the DPE ask/request/require the pilot to fly a NDB approach simply because it is installed? Or can the pilot and DPE agree to do a typical ILS/VOR/GPS combination?
 
dukeblue219 said:
--can the DPE ask/request/require the pilot to fly a NDB approach simply because it is installed?
Click to expand...

Yes. The PTS calls for 1 precision and 2 non-precision approaches. The DPE can have you fly anything the aircraft has the equipment to fly.
 
rbridges said:
I may get pounded on this, but here goes:

2) IIRC, it's 3 approaches. I think one has to be precision. I did GPS, ILS and DME-arc
Click to expand...
And one will be partial panel.

I think I recall C'Ron saying it's often RNAV, VOR (can be partial panel), ILS (can be partial panel).

DME Arc's not always done unless it's common for your area. But don't discount that the examiner might toss in an unpublished one.

"55WB, intercept the 180 Bowie VOR radial to the station. At 15 miles DME, do a DME Arc counter clockwise to intercept the 137 radial for the VOR/DME approach into Decatur."​

That will keep you busy... especially when I f'd up and tried it at cruise and not approach speed.
 
Oh, and if you have a good AP, I was told to use it as much as possible until you're told it's failed and you must hand fly.

So if you have a few minutes between airports and approaches, by all means use it while you take a breath and reset the brain, iPad, and navigator for the next round.

But know your navigator and GPS combo inside and out so your not fumbling with the setups and wasting time.
 
I recently found this video of a DPE discussing the ins and outs of the rides he's completed and what his airmen did good and not so good.


http://youtu.be/EUzR8f1Npss
 
I got an ILS to a miss, a LOC/DME BC to a landing and a VOR to a landing (partial panel). Two non precision (one partial panel) and one precision is what I expected... and what I got. Not sure what others have experienced, but the simpler the platform you test in the simpler the test will be (I assume). Take the ADF out since you'll never use it anyway and you've saved yourself a few hours of (and headaches during) training.

We may add an IFR GPS to the plane at some point, but I was glad l take the checkride without it (though I'd obviously get checked out on the new equipment if/when it gets added).
 
On my private ride I started out navigating with the gps as normal. DPE asked me to tune a VOR in, then actually navigate to an airport using the ADF. That and when I asked my CFI to show me the thing in action are the only times I've actually navigated with it.

On the other hand I hate yanking a perfectly good instrument out of the panel without something better to replace it. I don't suppose an ancient ADF has any resale value either...
 
cowman said:
On my private ride I started out navigating with the gps as normal. DPE asked me to tune a VOR in, then actually navigate to an airport using the ADF. That and when I asked my CFI to show me the thing in action are the only times I've actually navigated with it.



On the other hand I hate yanking a perfectly good instrument out of the panel without something better to replace it. I don't suppose an ancient ADF has any resale value either...
Click to expand...


What it's not worth will be easily saved by not having to train for the IR with it. (I just confused myself with that sentence.)

Let's try it this way*: I'll give you $250 for your ADF. But you actually give it to me after you're done training for your instrument checkride. In the meantime, I'll let you rent it for $50/hr that you train on it. I'll bet we just about break even. Or, you could just toss the thing in the first place, save the extra training time and make your training and checkride that much easier. (If you REALLY feel you want/need it, I'm guessing you could put it back in after the checkride... at which point I'd give you $50 every time you HAVE to use it.)

* This is a non-binding offer made solely to point out the value of keeping vs dumping the ADF. :)
 
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