Getting "punished" for daring to file direct?

[bikert]

Fairly soon after I got my IR, I had this "brilliant" idea (not so brilliant it later turned out ) to file direct out of an airport under the Philly Class B to somewhere out west. I had all the departure procedures ready when I called my clearance expecting either to get direct or to get one of the departures. My reasoning was, how bad could it be? Well when I got my clearance it was as long as my arm! I couldn't believe it. I had to get it read back to me three times before I finally got it all and had to get all the VORs spelled out. I was stammering and nobody could see but very red faced at my inability to get the clearance down easily.

Later I went back and checked and discovered it WAS one of the departure procedures that had been given to me but had been broken down to the definitions (VOR intersections, radials, etc). It was like someone took a departure, and then just read it out as if I didn't have it with me. Why didn't they just give me the departure? I hadn't said no SID's or anything like that. I assumed I was being punished for filing DIRECT.

So a question for the controllers is there ever an element of having some fun with someone who requested direct?

 

[Somedudeintn]

Maybe they thought you were this guy....

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/comm...g-and-learned-to-love-the-magenta-line.90240/

 

[ATC_av8er]

The short answer is no. We try not to talk any more than necessary. You can't file direct unless your destination is nearby (i.e. here at BJC, we frequently see Direct routes to APA, FNL, GXY, etc. Our DP is the DEN8 departure, radar vectors Direct). Other than that, you can expect the NAS to reroute you via airways and radials and fixes. You probably also had FRC-Full Route Clearance on your strip when Center rerouted you. This would explain a long read back.

 

[denverpilot]

Sounds more like they thought you had NOSID in your flight plan comments, so they read the whole thing to you.

 

[EdFred]

The short answer is no. We try not to talk any more than necessary. You can't file direct unless your destination is nearby (i.e. here at BJC, we frequently see Direct routes to APA, FNL, GXY, etc. Our DP is the DEN8 departure, radar vectors Direct). Other than that, you can expect the NAS to reroute you via airways and radials and fixes. You probably also had FRC-Full Route Clearance on your strip when Center rerouted you. This would explain a long read back.

I filed 9D9 -D-> SRQ a couple years back
Call up GRR and got my clearance,..."cleared as filed"
I got an amended clearance when I was about 60 north of TPA. And all it consisted of was one fix and then SRQ.

Maybe 926nm is considered nearby in ATC land? Unless you are only referring to near class B.

 

[ATC_av8er]

I stand corrected. It could be because we are under the Class B. Other factors come into play like time of day (I've heard airliners MIA-ORD -D-> Chicago at 3am). Thats also not to say ATC couldn't re-reute you en route for any number of reasons. But the short answer as I said is no. We try talking as little as possible.

 

[mscard88]

I assumed I was being punished for filing DIRECT.

So a question for the controllers is there ever an element of having some fun with someone who requested direct?

Are you kidding? Do you know the trouble a controller can get into for making a cowboy move like that? So no, you were not being punished. PHL area as well as the whole northeast is busy and complicated airspace.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

You do not have to accept what they offer. Ask cd if they can't send it back in the hopes of something more reasonable for the intended flight...like 'one of the published sids' (which in your case seems like an exceedingly appropriate suggestion as you note). {You might have to word this with extreme politeness to avoid a real penalty.}
Now if you are in a hurry to get going, that won't work of course - as rejecting a clearance will cause a delay.

 

[James331]

I basically always file direct, often I get it, sometimes I don't, doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[kayoh190]

I find it funny that all the big guys launching from PHL fly one of the simplest departures (PHL1) imaginable. Heading assigned by tower, radar vectors to your first fix, climb to 5000'. Meanwhile you're flying (essentially) some crazy DP out of your home airport under the Philly Bravo. Heh!

 

[luvflyin]

Fairly soon after I got my IR, I had this "brilliant" idea (not so brilliant it later turned out ) to file direct out of an airport under the Philly Class B to somewhere out west. I had all the departure procedures ready when I called my clearance expecting either to get direct or to get one of the departures. My reasoning was, how bad could it be? Well when I got my clearance it was as long as my arm! I couldn't believe it. I had to get it read back to me three times before I finally got it all and had to get all the VORs spelled out. I was stammering and nobody could see but very red faced at my inability to get the clearance down easily.

Later I went back and checked and discovered it WAS one of the departure procedures that had been given to me but had been broken down to the definitions (VOR intersections, radials, etc). It was like someone took a departure, and then just read it out as if I didn't have it with me. Why didn't they just give me the departure? I hadn't said no SID's or anything like that. I assumed I was being punished for filing DIRECT.

So a question for the controllers is there ever an element of having some fun with someone who requested direct?

No. That is not fun. Did you file direct all the way to the destination, or just to a "first fix" somewhere close by? What was the DP they gave you verbatim? Was it a SID or an ODP?

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Might as well file direct...you're gonna get what hey give you anyway, and that's usually only good for the first fix or two. I've pretty much given up punching in more than three fixes at a time into the box anyway, at least until I'm well clear of the SFRA.

 

[bikert]

No. That is not fun. Did you file direct all the way to the destination, or just to a "first fix" somewhere close by? What was the DP they gave you verbatim? Was it a SID or an ODP?

I filed DIRECT all the way to Bowling Green, Kentucky. It was a SID they gave me, just without calling it that and detailing it out. I've got to tell you, this taught me a good lesson. Ever since then I don't file direct from a busy airport where I know I'm not going to get direct. Today if this happened, I'd probably ask them to give me a departure instead. I was newly IR rated at the time (this was years ago) so didn't think to do that. These days I do still file direct occasionally but as I mentioned only when there is a reasonable chance I'll get it. I still don't get why whoever worked on that clearance decided to read out the SID instead of just calling it the SID. They must have known it was the SID.

 

[Everskyward]

Direct works pretty well out in the boonies. In busy airspace, not so much.

 

[luvflyin]

I filed DIRECT all the way to Bowling Green, Kentucky. It was a SID they gave me, just without calling it that and detailing it out. I've got to tell you, this taught me a good lesson. Ever since then I don't file direct from a busy airport where I know I'm not going to get direct. Today if this happened, I'd probably ask them to give me a departure instead. I was newly IR rated at the time (this was years ago) so didn't think to do that. These days I do still file direct occasionally but as I mentioned only when there is a reasonable chance I'll get it. I still don't get why whoever worked on that clearance decided to read out the SID instead of just calling it the SID. They must have known it was the SID.

Hard telling why. There is a possibility the controller was training and the instructor was doing it as an excercise. Was it a SID that was meant for higher performance airplanes? Might have wanted to duplicate the route but thought he couldn't legally issue it. There is the possibility that the controller assumed you didnt have SIDS because you didn't file one even though you didnt put NO SIDS in remarks. Maybe he didnt know better and thought he had to. Thats not supposed to happen but it does. Now I'm not gonna bet a whole paycheck against it, but I doubt it was for controller amusement.

 

[frfly172]

If filing direct while under class B and C usually get radar vectors till clear of the class C ,then direct usually works.

 

[bobmrg]

I filed DIRECT all the way to Bowling Green, Kentucky. It was a SID they gave me, just without calling it that and detailing it out. I've got to tell you, this taught me a good lesson. Ever since then I don't file direct from a busy airport where I know I'm not going to get direct. Today if this happened, I'd probably ask them to give me a departure instead. I was newly IR rated at the time (this was years ago) so didn't think to do that. These days I do still file direct occasionally but as I mentioned only when there is a reasonable chance I'll get it. I still don't get why whoever worked on that clearance decided to read out the SID instead of just calling it the SID. They must have known it was the SID.

Don't forget that the purpose of SIDs and STARS is to present the pilot with a graphic path so that the controller does not need to read out each fix and airway. If you ask for a SID you will eliminate the laundry list, but you will accept the responsibility for following the SID to the letter. AIM 5-2-8. No free lunch.

Bob Gardner

 

[Zeldman]

I have noticed that departing Phoenix in a turbine I get a SID. Departing in a piston twin I get the same departure but they read it out to me. Same GPS in both planes, I just pull up the departure on the GPS and fly it no matter which plane I am in.

 

[jordane93]

I find it funny that all the big guys launching from PHL fly one of the simplest departures (PHL1) imaginable. Heading assigned by tower, radar vectors to your first fix, climb to 5000'. Meanwhile you're flying (essentially) some crazy DP out of your home airport under the Philly Bravo. Heh!

This is pretty much every SID I've ever gotten. FRG5, fly heading XXX to 3000 thence....

 

[Harold Rutila]

It's probably some sort of preferred routing that got turned into a SID later. The computer doesn't care if you have the SID or not and will sometimes default back to the preferred route rather than issue a SID.

 

[Kritchlow]

I think filing direct is BS for the professional pilot. The reasons are almost too numerous to list.
For the private pilot, you are setting yourself up for either:

1) a complicated reroute when airborne
2) an unexpected fuel burn hit when you get rerouted

Just take a moment and file accordingly. If between two large airports connect the departure fix on the Sid with an arrival point on the star.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I think filing direct is BS for the professional pilot. The reasons are almost too numerous to list.
For the private pilot, you are setting yourself up for either:

1) a complicated reroute when airborne
2) an unexpected fuel burn hit when you get rerouted

Just take a moment and file accordingly. If between two large airports connect the departure fix on the Sid with an arrival point on the star.

You do realize that both of those can and will happen when you file a full non-direct route, right?

The key to either is doing the research when flight planning and then being prepared/flexible when ATC has other plans.

 

[Kritchlow]

You do realize that both of those can and will happen when you file a full non-direct route, right?

The key to either is doing the research when flight planning and then being prepared/flexible when ATC has other plans.

Yes, it's possible... But with a little legwork ahead of time it will be minimized.
Last time I filed my own flight plan was with fltplan.com. They list the last several actual routes given. Can't get any easier than that...

 

[weilke]

From HEF (under the Washington bravo), I know that I get the Arsenal4 departure come rain come shine. So if I file, I include it in my filing and and put direct from the last point in my direction. Depending on where I go, that's what I end up getting anyway except that they never make my fly the entire departure but change it to 'direct' once I am clear of whatever IAD approach/departure they are doing that way. If you just file 'direct', you can indeed end up with these automated chains of long/lat that the computer spits out.

 

[StinkBug]

*snip* There is the possibility that the controller assumed you didnt have SIDS because you didn't file one even though you didnt put NO SIDS in remarks.

This would be my guess. You didn't file a SID, so he doesn't know what documents you have on board. Since you have to have a copy of the SID in order to legally fly it he gave you a copy by way of a verbal clearance for each point along the way. Doing this and having you read it back assures that you have it. Maybe he could have asked if you had a copy of the SID, but I don't know if that's permissible or not. Maybe if you had prompted him and asked for a SID or something along those lines (politely) he could have given that to you.

 

[Larry in TN]

This is pretty much every SID I've ever gotten. FRG5, fly heading XXX to 3000 thence....

That is because of where you live and fly. Here's an example of a SID from Monterrey, Mexico.

OVEMA3A
Climb on MTY R-110 to D8.0 MTY, turn LEFT and proceed on the D11.0 Arc until intercepting the corresponding radio from MTY VOR to OVEMA or accordance with ATC instructions.

There's a fun one out of Saltillo, Mexico that intercepts a radial to a DME arc to a radial to another DME arc in the other direction. Takes you around some terrain.


As far as getting "punished" for filing direct... If you file in accordance with the AIM recomondations the chances of being "punished" are greatly reduced. See AIM 5-1-7 and, in particular, paragraph d for filing RNAV direct routings.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Yes, it's possible... But with a little legwork ahead of time it will be minimized.
Last time I filed my own flight plan was with fltplan.com. They list the last several actual routes given. Can't get any easier than that...

Fltplan.com has direct routes though, even past ATC routes.

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'filing direct'. Are you talking about putting a departure and destination down and leaving the route blank, or the recommended method of including at least one fix within each Center's airspace?

 

[EdFred]

In my case I left the route blank. Didn't seem to be an issue as I got CAF until they had to work me into/around the flow at Tampa.

 

[Approach_controller]

I skimmed and didn't see an answer. What OP got was a PDR or preferred departure routing. It's a SID fix by fix. These are triggered when departing an airport without a sid/ filing no SID AND typically have an altitude trigger to eliminate conflicts with arrival posts.

Next time ask if going lower will suppress the PDR, then ask for higher with the next facility.

 

[jordane93]

That is because of where you live and fly. Here's an example of a SID from Monterrey, Mexico.

OVEMA3A
Climb on MTY R-110 to D8.0 MTY, turn LEFT and proceed on the D11.0 Arc until intercepting the corresponding radio from MTY VOR to OVEMA or accordance with ATC instructions.

There's a fun one out of Saltillo, Mexico that intercepts a radial to a DME arc to a radial to another DME arc in the other direction. Takes you around some terrain.


As far as getting "punished" for filing direct... If you file in accordance with the AIM recomondations the chances of being "punished" are greatly reduced. See AIM 5-1-7 and, in particular, paragraph d for filing RNAV direct routings.

Sounds miserable haha. Load the departure and let the AP take it!

 

[bikert]

I skimmed and didn't see an answer. What OP got was a PDR or preferred departure routing. It's a SID fix by fix. These are triggered when departing an airport without a sid/ filing no SID AND typically have an altitude trigger to eliminate conflicts with arrival posts.

Next time ask if going lower will suppress the PDR, then ask for higher with the next facility.

Thank you that sounds exactly what happened.

 

[luvflyin]

I skimmed and didn't see an answer. What OP got was a PDR or preferred departure routing. It's a SID fix by fix. These are triggered when departing an airport without a sid/ filing no SID AND typically have an altitude trigger to eliminate conflicts with arrival posts.

Next time ask if going lower will suppress the PDR, then ask for higher with the next facility.

That's ringing a bell with me. About a year or so ago I was talking with a controller I know about that. The word had come down that all departures would have a SID transition fix in all clearances whether or not a SID was actually issued . It sounded like it was a national directive having to do with data processing. Are you currently working and do you remember something like that a year or so ago?

 

[Approach_controller]

That's ringing a bell with me. About a year or so ago I was talking with a controller I know about that. The word had come down that all departures would have a SID transition fix in all clearances whether or not a SID was actually issued . It sounded like it was a national directive having to do with data processing. Are you currently working and do you remember something like that a year or so ago?

Yes I'm currently working. I highly doubt it's a national directive for two reasons. 1, if it's a data processing issue all altitudes filed would be restricted to PDRs and that isnt the case. 2, we recently raised our PDR altitude threshold here. The previous altitude threshold coincided with the feeder sectors altitudes in the dump zones, the new threshold coincides with the airspace feeder owns at our airspace boundary.

File for above the threshold and you'll get a PDR with a fix that laterally separates you from the STARS rather than relying on altitude. FWIW many times we'll shorten the PDR when possible and coordinate rather than issue the laundry list of fixes. Seems like in OPs case it wasn't possible.

 

[luvflyin]

Yes I'm currently working. I highly doubt it's a national directive for two reasons. 1, if it's a data processing issue all altitudes filed would be restricted to PDRs and that isnt the case. 2, we recently raised our PDR altitude threshold here. The previous altitude threshold coincided with the feeder sectors altitudes in the dump zones, the new threshold coincides with the airspace feeder owns at our airspace boundary.

File for above the threshold and you'll get a PDR with a fix that laterally separates you from the STARS rather than relying on altitude. FWIW many times we'll shorten the PDR when possible and coordinate rather than issue the laundry list of fixes. Seems like in OPs case it wasn't possible.

OK. It must have been local or someones interpretation of something she was talking about. The OP was mostly talking about that they read every little detail of the SID itself instead of just giving him the SID. Anything in current procedures that could account for that?

 

[Approach_controller]

Wish I knew. Could very well be a local procedure or LOA. I know I wouldn't take the time to read it all if it wasn't necessary.

 

[n9144p]

My home field Is under the philly class b. They will never give you direct, so just file a nearby vor and an airway or two. They will give you a long clearance no matter what. As soon as you get to one airspace west of philly, request and atc will give you direct. North or southbound from philly it will be airways forever.

 

[Larry in TN]

Sounds miserable haha. Load the departure and let the AP take it!

Well, I was flying them in old DC8s so no RNAV for the SID. Had to use raw data. The best the autopilot could do was turn-knob and v/s wheel. Was easy to just hand-fly it.

We're spoiled in the US, particularly in the flat(er) parts of the country. Much of the world doesn't have the luxury of radar coverage down to pattern altitude. Many CFIIs either don't train those procedures well or have never been trained well in them themselves.

Anyone remember the Bonanza pilot on the Red Board who flew through the flight-free zone on an IFR departure out of the Grand Canyon some years ago because he just assumed that he'd get radar vectors?

 

[alang]

Fairly soon after I got my IR, I had this "brilliant" idea (not so brilliant it later turned out ) to file direct out of an airport under the Philly Class B to somewhere out west. I had all the departure procedures ready when I called my clearance expecting either to get direct or to get one of the departures. My reasoning was, how bad could it be? Well when I got my clearance it was as long as my arm! I couldn't believe it. I had to get it read back to me three times before I finally got it all and had to get all the VORs spelled out. I was stammering and nobody could see but very red faced at my inability to get the clearance down easily.

Later I went back and checked and discovered it WAS one of the departure procedures that had been given to me but had been broken down to the definitions (VOR intersections, radials, etc). It was like someone took a departure, and then just read it out as if I didn't have it with me. Why didn't they just give me the departure? I hadn't said no SID's or anything like that. I assumed I was being punished for filing DIRECT.

So a question for the controllers is there ever an element of having some fun with someone who requested direct?

Are you aware of the previously cleared routes source? Available from FltPlan.com and FF. That is your best bet of not getting surprised by a clearance in a new airport. Not fulproof but seems to work most of the time.

Alan

 

[Timbeck2]

For those who may not understand what happens when you file....it isn't like a controller reviews your plan and re-routes you to "punish" you. It goes through an automated system that takes into account navigation aids that may be out of service, preferred routing, etc. In other words, no human is out to "punish" you.

 

[mscard88]

For those who may not understand what happens when you file....it isn't like a controller reviews your plan and re-routes you to "punish" you. It goes through an automated system that takes into account navigation aids that may be out of service, preferred routing, etc. In other words, no human is out to "punish" you.

THIS!