Getting a private pilots license after 60

dmccormack said:
Really? I've found most AWOS/ATIS to be pretty on target with bases.

:dunno:
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Yep, really. It's pretty consistent from what I've seen, and I'm not sure why. I've thought maybe with cumulus clouds the sensor picks up the bases as a SCT layer, but sometimes there's no SCT layer reported, just BKN or OVC and the bases are much lower.

As I posted on the Red Board this morning, I think most automated stations are just plain unreliable but I could see where someone might get the impression that the AWOS was reporting MSL not AGL. I once scud ran into KGLR with about a 1300' ceiling that was being reported as 2500' by the on-field AWOS. Since the field elevation is 1328 MSL, that would have actually been about right. :frown3:

But it sounds as if the ones near you are more accurate. :dunno:
 
azure said:
Yep, really. It's pretty consistent from what I've seen, and I'm not sure why. I've thought maybe with cumulus clouds the sensor picks up the bases as a SCT layer, but sometimes there's no SCT layer reported, just BKN or OVC and the bases are much lower.

As I posted on the Red Board this morning, I think most automated stations are just plain unreliable but I could see where someone might get the impression that the AWOS was reporting MSL not AGL. I once scud ran into KGLR with about a 1300' ceiling that was being reported as 2500' by the on-field AWOS. Since the field elevation is 1328 MSL, that would have actually been about right. :frown3:

But it sounds as if the ones near you are more accurate. :dunno:
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Here's a good summary of AWOS/ASOS technology: http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa09.pdf

The claim is tolerance within "100 feet."

Of course the bases are only measured within a very narrow beam directly overhead, so perhaps that's why you're seeing a difference.

But typically -- typically -- I've found that a broken or overcast layer is usually about right.

Where it has trouble are those misty, low vis days where you can't tell if you're inside a thin cloud or flying in haze/mist.
 
dmccormack said:
Here's a good summary of AWOS/ASOS technology: http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa09.pdf

The claim is tolerance within "100 feet."

Of course the bases are only measured within a very narrow beam directly overhead, so perhaps that's why you're seeing a difference.
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Thanks for the reference. I wonder how the time-averaging algorithm handles changing bases, as with ragged-bottomed cumulus clouds passing over the station? Does it average the heights as well as the coverage? If so, that could easily explain why so many readings are higher than the actual bases a pilot would report.

I also wonder whether AWOS-3 uses laser ceilometers like ASOS?
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't see the need for an IFR flight plan to do a XC trip with a Student Pilot with the weather 2500-4. I'm pretty much OK with dual XC's down to 2000-foot ceilings. But if it gets signficantly worse (especially the vis -- low vis scares me more than low ceilings), we're turning back or diverting. The only place I'm likely to take a Student Pilot in, say, 1500-3, is up in the pattern so s/he can look around and see how bad an idea it would be to get out of sight of an airport under VFR in such conditions. Other than that, I don't want one of my students getting the wrong idea about scud-running because we did something I wouldn't recommend doing and got away with it.
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Understand - I am perfectly comfortable with 2500 and 4 too depending on the conditions (sometimes lower yet then that). The reason that I am comfortable with that is because:

a)I've learned some limits by exceeding them earlier on. My instructor showed me several times we could fly VFR in sketchy weather and that was a habit that stuck with me. It made for some close calls. The difference is that he could file IFR as an out whereas I was screwed.

b)I can often (with the exception of some convective activity, ice, or a terribly equipped airplane) get out of trouble by picking up a pop-up IFR.

c) I understand weather a lot better now then I did as a fresh private pilot.

I personally don't think it's a great idea to show a student that something can be done when they don't have the same tools to get out of it. If it's done on an IFR plan its obvious to them that they DON'T have the tools to operate in the conditions.
 
dmccormack said:
But typically -- typically -- I've found that a broken or overcast layer is usually about right.

Where it has trouble are those misty, low vis days where you can't tell if you're inside a thin cloud or flying in haze/mist.
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I would say that another place where I've found the ASOS to be often inaccurate is at mountain airports. Since the airports tend to be in valleys the weather which is sensed overhead is often better than it is out on the approach where you need to spot the runway.
 
jesse said:
I personally don't think it's a great idea to show a student that something can be done when they don't have the same tools to get out of it. If it's done on an IFR plan its obvious to them that they DON'T have the tools to operate in the conditions.
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I don't agree. The student will likely become a Private Pilot and be VFR only for a while.

I think it's critically important that they see that an IR is required if they expect GA to be transportation, and that VFR they will be in deep doo-doo if they push on because "the METAR said VFR..."
 
Everskyward said:
I would say that another place where I've found the ASOS to be often inaccurate is at mountain airports. Since the airports tend to be in valleys the weather which is sensed overhead is often better than it is out on the approach where you need to spot the runway.
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Very true even out east with our mini-mountains.
 
Ron Levy said:
The fact that an airport doesn't have a tower doesn't make it legal to land there when the weather is less than legal VFR for that sort of airspace, and that doesn't even begin to address the safety aspects.
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Well, if you are up there and things have gone below VFR limits, then it's probably already not legal (or safe) to stay where you are. So what are you going to do?

I can think of five options (assuming you are not IFR rated).
Keep flying around under the clouds and hope for the best
Climb into the clouds and hope for the best.
Ask for special VFR.
Try to make it to an uncontrolled field.
Put it down anywhere there is an open spot.
​
Did I miss anything?
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Well, if you are up there and things have gone below VFR limits, then it's probably already not legal (or safe) to stay where you are. So what are you going to do?

I can think of five options (assuming you are not IFR rated).
Keep flying around under the clouds and hope for the best Climb into the clouds and hope for the best.
Ask for special VFR.
Try to make it to an uncontrolled field.
Put it down anywhere there is an open spot.
​
Did I miss anything?
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I recently spoke with an Old Timer whose daughter took his J-3 out a few years ago. The clouds lowered, she lost her bearings, decided to land in a field.

No NTSB report, no problems -- no damage to the airplane, no damage to anything on the ground.

I certainly wish more VFR into IMC accidents would end this way.
 
dmccormack said:
I recently spoke with an Old Timer whose daughter took his J-3 out a few years ago. The clouds lowered, she lost her bearings, decided to land in a field.

No NTSB report, no problems -- no damage to the airplane, no damage to anything on the ground.

I certainly wish more VFR into IMC accidents would end this way.
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My dad was a crop duster and didn't much understand weather. Most of his flying was done early in the morning before the wind picked up.

During the winter he'd fly his airplane down to Florida and would pull banners for some extra money.

He was never a guy to plan much of anything. He'd just drive to Shopko and would pick up a compass and an atlas (airplane didn't have one. they weren't much for rules). He'd fly along until the weather would get so bad that he'd have no choice but to just land in a field. He still talks in horror about the time that he was forced to land, discovered it was a dry county, and was stuck there for a week.
 
jesse said:
My dad was a crop duster and didn't much understand weather. Most of his flying was done early in the morning before the wind picked up.

During the winter he'd fly his airplane down to Florida and would pull banners for some extra money.

He was never a guy to plan much of anything. He'd just drive to Shopko and would pick up a compass and an atlas (airplane didn't have one. they weren't much for rules). He'd fly along until the weather would get so bad that he'd have no choice but to just land in a field. He still talks in horror about the time that he was forced to land, discovered it was a dry county, and was stuck there for a week.
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Good story. :)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Well, if you are up there and things have gone below VFR limits, then it's probably already not legal (or safe) to stay where you are. So what are you going to do?

I can think of five options (assuming you are not IFR rated).
Keep flying around under the clouds and hope for the best
Climb into the clouds and hope for the best.
Ask for special VFR.
Try to make it to an uncontrolled field.
Put it down anywhere there is an open spot.
​
Did I miss anything?
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Declare an Emergency and land at the first available airport. Certainly not what someone should go out planning to do, but then that's also true for some of your other options. Do not be afraid to use that tool if you've gotten to the point where you're unsure of the safe outcome of the flight.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Well, if you are up there and things have gone below VFR limits, then it's probably already not legal (or safe) to stay where you are. So what are you going to do?

I can think of five options (assuming you are not IFR rated).
Keep flying around under the clouds and hope for the best
Climb into the clouds and hope for the best.
Ask for special VFR.
Try to make it to an uncontrolled field.
Put it down anywhere there is an open spot.
​
Did I miss anything?
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What I did:

1. Call ATC and tell them you need assistance (admit you're lost, as I did because I was lost).
2. Follow their advice if its helpful
3. Land and thank God you're safe.
 
I met with the avionics guy today, the day I was supposed to take my check ride, it seems my transponder needs a new cavity tube. The tube costs around $900.00. A used transponder of the same type (King whatever) will cost about the same. After installation it will be around 11-12 hundred bucks. I was torn between getting a new tube or a re-built used transponder, the cost is about the same. I decided on the re-built since he said he could probably get a newer one for me.

The price of a brand new one makes it prohibitive to me right now. This will take about a week before I can fly again. I will get my instructors 60 day sign off and try and get a new appointment with the examiner.

I'm hoping I can get my pilots license before my 85th birthday. That only gives me seventeen and a half years to get a check ride and pass it. The way it's been going so far, it's going to be close.

John
 
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05/03/2010 (I'm going to start dating these.)

My new used transponder is installed, cost $1,375.00. Sunday was a perfect day for touch and goes. Winds were 24008G16KTS. Runway was 28L at KMYF. I did ten.

I haven't flown in two weeks, my first couple were a little sloppy then I did great until the eighth, another sloppy one, the ninth was fine, then on the full stop was almost a greaser. By sloppy I mean slightly off the centerline, gliding in ground effect because I thought I should have a little more speed due to the gusting and turbulence, gave a little more than I needed.

I'm stalling with my instructor because it's the first of the month, everything is due, rent, house payment, end of month bills, and naturally, business is slow. Have some big orders being picked up this week so should be able to get back into it in a week or two.

I need another 60 day sign off and another appointment with the examiner, not easy to do in San Diego.

Anyway, that's todays update.

John
 
Hang in there John. When it rains, it pours!
 
John Baker said:
05/03/2010 (I'm going to start dating these.)

My new used transponder is installed, cost $1,375.00. Sunday was a perfect day for touch and goes. Winds were 24008G16KTS. Runway was 28L at KMYF. I did ten.

I haven't flown in two weeks, my first couple were a little sloppy then I did great until the eighth, another sloppy one, the ninth was fine, then on the full stop was almost a greaser. By sloppy I mean slightly off the centerline, gliding in ground effect because I thought I should have a little more speed due to the gusting and turbulence, gave a little more than I needed.

I'm stalling with my instructor because it's the first of the month, everything is due, rent, house payment, end of month bills, and naturally, business is slow. Have some big orders being picked up this week so should be able to get back into it in a week or two.

I need another 60 day sign off and another appointment with the examiner, not easy to do in San Diego.

Anyway, that's todays update.

John
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John -- my .000002 Cents -- quit doing touch and goes.

Why?

Your mind's already shifted to takeoff before the landing is complete. Intentionally stopping allows you to focus on the task at hand -- landing.

I know TnG are a fave CFI and pilot tool for cramming alot of takeoffs and landings into a short amount of time. It might work for some folks, but I think you may be better served dropping that particular tool.
 
Dan, I should point out that I have over a thousand take offs and landings. I use T&Gs as an exercise when I haven't flown in a while, it kinda gets me back in the groove. I also flat out enjoy doing them when the conditions are a little challenging.

Usually when I haven't flown for a few weeks, I will do a couple of TGs then head out and do whatever it is I or my instructor thinks I should be doing. My first few on Sunday were sloppy and I thought I would be better served to hang around.

I did have an instructor a few years back that had me doing as you suggested, full stops, but he only did it for one lesson. (hour) We were practicing short field take offs and landings.

I'm going out today to practice diversions, course, ground speed, time, etc. At least that is my plan.

John
 
John Baker said:
Dan, I should point out that I have over a thousand take offs and landings. I use T&Gs as an exercise when I haven't flown in a while, it kinda gets me back in the groove. I also flat out enjoy doing them when the conditions are a little challenging.

Usually when I haven't flown for a few weeks, I will do a couple of TGs then head out and do whatever it is I or my instructor thinks I should be doing. My first few on Sunday were sloppy and I thought I would be better served to hang around.

I did have an instructor a few years back that had me doing as you suggested, full stops, but he only did it for one lesson. (hour) We were practicing short field take offs and landings.

I'm going out today to practice diversions, course, ground speed, time, etc. At least that is my plan.

John
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OK, but if you find yourself have "bad landings," concentrate on landings and takeoffs as separate events.
 
May 18. 2010

Today was pretty much like the last time I flew two weeks ago. Great shifting cross winds on 28L ranging from 220 to 270 with velocities from 7 to 12 kts. I did ten t&gs, same as last time.

On May 1, business did not slow down, it came to a complete stop. By the 12th, we had only taken in $320.00 for the whole month. I talked to a supplier in New York who told me the exact same thing was happening there as well, May 1, it fell off a cliff.

I have decided I must concentrate on my business rather than chasing after the elusive check ride. I can't, as you can see from above, afford it anyway. I started working on that in earnest last Thursday, and it is paying off for me so far. We had a great weekend then a huge order came in today`. Hopefully my business will settle down soon, and I can continue pretending that one day I will get a check ride.

In the meantime I will continue flying on sign offs and reading the books. I feel that the powers that be are simply stalling and waiting me out for the day when I fail my medical, or give up completely.

I sincerely hope they are not holding their breath, I had a lot of fun today.

John
 
Just found this thread today... and I find this whole situation ridiculous. Sounds like you should of been a licensed pilot for many years now. In most cases similar to these one can look at the student and typically find the problem. (whatever it may be) But i don't believe this is all your fault. The CFIs you have been training with should be embarrassed. It is their job as an instructor to train you to be a safe and legally licensed pilot. If you are not bound by any legal restraints whether it be age,medical,plane, than you should get this done. as a CFI I would be embarrassed if i had a student like you. ( don't mistake this as being embarrassed bye you John.) but embarrassed as a CFI. A CFI should do what they can to get their students to their goal as a pilot. can you genuinely say that your instructors have taken the time and actually wanted to see you succeed?

I believe you can do this John even if it means selling the plane and using some of that money to finish it out!
 
Superpilot61 said:
Just found this thread today... and I find this whole situation ridiculous. Sounds like you should of been a licensed pilot for many years now. In most cases similar to these one can look at the student and typically find the problem. (whatever it may be) But i don't believe this is all your fault. The CFIs you have been training with should be embarrassed. It is their job as an instructor to train you to be a safe and legally licensed pilot. If you are not bound by any legal restraints whether it be age,medical,plane, than you should get this done. as a CFI I would be embarrassed if i had a student like you. ( don't mistake this as being embarrassed bye you John.) but embarrassed as a CFI. A CFI should do what they can to get their students to their goal as a pilot. can you genuinely say that your instructors have taken the time and actually wanted to see you succeed?

I believe you can do this John even if it means selling the plane and using some of that money to finish it out!
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I'm not so sure that what has occurred in my flight training over the years can be entirely blamed on the multitude of CFIs that have made their various contributions to it. Some of my instructors were downright outstanding, others, not so much.

I can not claim that I am the sharpest tack in the box, I had a lot of trouble grasping some of the concepts. like learning to land and VOR navigation. I also apparently need to go out and practice diversions a little more. I have done many of them just fine, but my last one with my instructor was pretty sloppy. That might just be that I'm not flying enough.

I will continue on. I think it has become more of a vendetta than anything else. I do enjoy flying still, but the cost has been preposterous and I feel like for every step forward I make, I take another one backward.

I know how to fly, and navigate, there is not a doubt in my mind about that. The issue is now acquiring that little hunk of green plastic that most others seem to be able to possess with ease. I really do feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. :mad2:

John
 
John Baker said:
I know how to fly, and navigate, there is not a doubt in my mind about that. The issue is now acquiring that little hunk of green plastic that most others seem to be able to possess with ease. I really do feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. :mad2:

John
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I'm sure you do -- the only problem is -- you have to convince an examiner of that fact.

While some earn the PP quickly, it isn't necessarily "easy," and anyone that say it was "easy" is lying or forgetting.
 
dmccormack said:
I'm sure you do -- the only problem is -- you have to convince an examiner of that fact.

While some earn the PP quickly, it isn't necessarily "easy," and anyone that say it was "easy" is lying or forgetting.
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I took to flying like a fish to water. I had to do pleasure flights just to make it to 40 hours. My biggest problem was blowing off all the underwear models to go fly. Did I mention that someone gave me an airplane to go fly in?

It must really suck not being me.:D:D:D :D:D:D :D:D:D :D:D:D
 
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dmccormack said:
I'm sure you do -- the only problem is -- you have to convince an examiner of that fact.

While some earn the PP quickly, it isn't necessarily "easy," and anyone that say it was "easy" is lying or forgetting.
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I've managed to convince most everyone that I can fly, even an inspector from the FAA who gave me my SODA.

What I have not been able to do is actually get a PPL examiner in my aircraft. The closest I have come so far was to get into the ground portion room with one. I never did get to the point of actually answering a question though.

He was too engaged in finding an excuse not to proceed. It was almost elation on his part when he discovered a letter wanting a SODA before my next medical exam. End of check ride. He wanted the SODA before the check ride, not before my next medical in August.

At first it was hard learning to fly, now the hard part is getting a check ride. My brother is pretty close to the truth when he said that it is more the case of nobody wanting to have the liability of signing off a sixty seven year old man to fly an airplane, especially a mono vision one.

John
 
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steingar said:
I took to flying like a fish to water. I had to do pleasure flights just to make it to 40 hours. My biggest problem was blowing off all the underwear models to go fly. Did I mention that someone gave me an airplane to go fly in?

It must really suck not being me.
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Henning stole Steingar's profile!!!
 
steingar said:
I took to flying like a fish to water. I had to do pleasure flights just to make it to 40 hours. My biggest problem was blowing off all the underwear models to go fly. Did I mention that someone gave me an airplane to go fly in?

It must really suck not being me.
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I remember years ago, when I was in my early thirties, sailing my boat up the coast, a few miles offshore, with my latest lovely and another couple. We were drinking cold beer with the stereo on down in the cabin.

It was one of those hot summer days in San Diego, the city had that really baked look to it, little waves of heat wriggling upward in the smog like you see on a runway on a hot day.

We were all just looking at it when my date said " I wonder what the poor people are doing today?"

Your statement kinda reminded me of that wonderful day. I guess I should point out to you that we all get to have our day in the sun, but for most...." it " .... like good health, is only a temporary condition. Enjoy it while you can, it does not last forever.

John
 
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I have flown with a guy who got his license in 41 hours. But I really have to wonder what he was taught, because he can't fly in wind, he can't takeoff or land in crosswind conditions. He brags about the 41 hours, but he's not that good.

My point is to ignore others who brag about how great they are. Those who brag seem to be bluffing, the really good ones don't need to.

Keep going!

My checkride, the examiner's tactic was to try to wear down the pilot, with three hour oral exams and two hour practicals.
 
bluee said:
I have flown with a guy who got his license in 41 hours. But I really have to wonder what he was taught, because he can't fly in wind, he can't takeoff or land in crosswind conditions. He brags about the 41 hours, but he's not that good.

My point is to ignore others who brag about how great they are. Those who brag seem to be bluffing, the really good ones don't need to.

Keep going!

My checkride, the examiner's tactic was to try to wear down the pilot, with three hour oral exams and two hour practicals.
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Hello, Blue. Welcome to POA.
 
Thanks!

Hunh? That seems excessive for a PP checkride.
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The examiner in our area is known for this. One person had a 5 hour oral exam, but I'm surprised this individual passed at all. Apparently 2-3 hour oral is typical.
 
May 31, 2010

Yesterday I passed a milestone in my pursuit of a PPL. I completed my first log book, and am now starting my second one.

I have:

360.2 hours flight experience
1,010 landings
123.7 hours as PIC
236.7 hours Duel instruction
6.3 hours duel night flight
10.6 hours simulated instrument

I have been signed off twice for my PPL, and have yet to take the check ride.

I have several pages of 90 day endorsements.

I have taken and passed the written test twice, 92% & 93% correct.

That log book has cost me comfortably over a hundred thousand dollars. My check ride is sometime in the future, if ever.

John
 
I guess I am calling it quits. It's been almost six years but I have flat run out of money and must sell my airplane. I'm 67, and my picture framing business is not what it used to be.

I had a friend and his girlfriend who where going to finish me off and fly me up to Las Vegas to take a check ride, but my heart is just not in it anymore. I can't seem to get my head in the books when the rest of my world is crumbling around me.

I'm going to have to use the money from the airplane and eyewash up my house, and sell that as well.

I will probably re-locate up to Idaho or some such place. I will have enough from my house to purchase some sort of modest home in a less expensive area. I'm thinking Boise. I've never been there so I will probably do some serious driving to find a final place to hang my hat.

Anyway, that is where my mind is at today, July the fourth, 2010. I moved into my house exactly 26 years ago today, July the fourth, 1984. I will miss flying and my home, but nothing is forever. The part about flying I won't miss is the bureaucracy. It is never ending and I will be glad to get away from it.

John
 
John:

There has to be joy in it for you; if that's not working, then you should hang it up.

That said, you may be surprised what the process of unloading some of these various troubles and distractions uncovers. You may fly yet again!

Tailwinds,

/s/ Spike
 
John Baker said:
I guess I am calling it quits. It's been almost six years but I have flat run out of money and must sell my airplane. I'm 67, and my picture framing business is not what it used to be.

I had a friend and his girlfriend who where going to finish me off and fly me up to Las Vegas to take a check ride, but my heart is just not in it anymore. I can't seem to get my head in the books when the rest of my world is crumbling around me.

I'm going to have to use the money from the airplane and eyewash up my house, and sell that as well.

I will probably re-locate up to Idaho or some such place. I will have enough from my house to purchase some sort of modest home in a less expensive area. I'm thinking Boise. I've never been there so I will probably do some serious driving to find a final place to hang my hat.

Anyway, that is where my mind is at today, July the fourth, 2010. I moved into my house exactly 26 years ago today, July the fourth, 1984. I will miss flying and my home, but nothing is forever. The part about flying I won't miss is the bureaucracy. It is never ending and I will be glad to get away from it.

John
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Good luck John. Boise isn't inexpensive (though compared to southern coastal Cali everything is relative) ...but if you are committed there are plenty of beautiful places that are.
 
Ok, it's bad now, but it will get better. Even without the ticket you have accomplished something that 99% of the people in this world have not.

Do what you have to do, but hang in there dude.
 
I talked with the CFI friend this morning and asked him if he could sell my plane for me. He said he could, but he thinks he has a better idea. He thinks I should put the plane in "The Club". He thinks I could make a grand a month off that bird.

That is an option I never considered doing before, but it sounds good to me now. He said he will get back to me with the details.

If nothing else, it's interesting.

John
 
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