Getting a private pilots license after 60

John Baker

Final Approach
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Display name:
John Baker
This is from another thread that I seem to have pirated. I deleted this from there and moving it over to it's own thread.

I started five and a half years ago when I was 61 years old, I'm now 67, as a pay as you go student at a small flying school. After two years and $24,000.00, I had still not left the pattern solo. It was always one excuse after another. I passed every test they could give me, passing near the top each time.

I purchased my own warrior and it has been nothing but one bureaucratic blockade after anther. I could write a book about my learning to fly, a very thick one, and never once mention actually being in the cockpit.

I have been signed off by two different instructors as being ready for my PPTR, it does no good, the stalling and bureaucratic hurdles keep popping up. The last one was having to fly with an FAA inspector to prove that my vision is better than any human being that ever lived because I only have one eye. Another hurdle accomplished with flying colors.

For that SODA ride the FAA had one guy going over all my airplane logs, two guys going through my airplane, and another going through all my personal flight experience records, desperately looking for a reason, any reason, not to fly with me, or in my airplane.

In all fairness to them though, I should point out that exactly one hour before I showed up at the FSDO, some guy crashed his Cherokee into the IRS office in Texas. They all seemed a little jumpy. They never told me about that and I didn't find out about it until later that day.

The FAA inspector actually called my potential examiner and told him I was a darn good pilot, yet still I wait for the elusive check ride. I have well over 300 hours, over a thousand take off and landings, it does no good. That was almost two months ago, my latest 60 day sign off has expired and I must now get another one.

There is little doubt in my mind that I have managed to get on someones list, but for what, I have no clue. I have followed every regulation to the letter, I have never cheated on a test, I have had only the best mechanics look after my plane.

The cost so far has been over a hundred thousand dollars if I include the airplane, all the medical tests I have been required to provide, I'm talking in a hospital, not a doctors office.

When I joined this board I thought my check ride would be in a few weeks, not even close. I will be surprised if I get my ticket this year, if ever.

To sum it up, if you are over 60 and are thinking about this flying stuff, get ready to wipe out your savings and go through every gauntlet they can dream up.

If your a younger, healthy person, you should have few problems. Whatever you do, make sure you do not offend anyone in the FAA or GA.

John
__________________
I am a student pilot, therefor I know little or nothing about aviation. Any post I make on POA should not be taken seriously by anyone.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuntPeggy
John, you are one bitter puppy. Realistically, your case is an exception, not the rule.

I'm not so sure "bitter" is the correct word, I think now it's just resigned to the fact more than anything else.

I have to agree that my case seems to be an exception because I have never met or heard of anyone having the hassles I have been experiencing. I have taken the written twice, scouring more than 90% both times.

I have met CFIs who had started flying after I did. There is a woman in my neighborhood who started flying six months after me. She now has her fixed wing private, her instrument rating, her helicopter rating, she is a CFI for helicopters. I am sure she will be in the left seat of a jumbo jet before I get my private. She is a trust fund lady who was able to fly every day, time nor money was an issue for her.

My brother thinks there is no one who wants to sign off a person my age as a pilot. they don't want the responsibility on their shoulders.

Right now the whole thing seems to be in some sort of a stalling game or something, I can't figure it out at all.

I am pretty convinced it is an age thing, it's all I can come up with.

John
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdFred
John, I would look at getting a checkride under the juristiction of another FSDO.

Ed, I tried that to see if they would do it along with my SODA, they refused, claiming they were to busy.

John
 
Are you sure you've laid out the *whole* story?

Though I've encountered my share of nitwits, I haven't met any FAA or DPE with a quota or age limit.

Heck, most of them are on the mossy side!
 
I have been signed off by two different instructors as being ready for my PPTR, it does no good, the stalling and bureaucratic hurdles keep popping up. The last one was having to fly with an FAA inspector to prove that my vision is better than any human being that ever lived because I only have one eye. Another hurdle accomplished with flying colors.

<...>
The FAA inspector actually called my potential examiner and told him I was a darn good pilot, yet still I wait for the elusive check ride. .

What is the wait for? Instructor won't sign you off? The examiner won't schedule you - is a reason given? He/she/it is waiting for something from the FAA? Who is doing the stalling?
 
After two years and $24,000.00, I had still not left the pattern solo. It was always one excuse after another.

I have been signed off by two different instructors as being ready for my PPTR,

If there's not a mis-statement there, then I have difficulty reconciling the inconsistency. Being ready to take the PPTR means you've got solo time and a few hours XC under your belt...
 
So far based on your initial post you have your own plane so scheduling is not an issue, right?

I would assume that funds to fly is also not an issue, right?

The weather and Examiner schedules can't be that bad to arrange are they? I lost about three months between weather, mine, the planes, the examiners schedules, finding some last minute practice time, CFI final review in close proximity to flyable days for the exam, etc.

That leaves age and health issues. You mentioned the SODA and having lost an eye but no other medical specifics other than your eys sight in the one eye is good.

My guess is that the issues are medically related, right?

Would you care to elaborate on the issues? That may bring out the suggestions from those with more knowledge, like Dr Bruce.
 
This is a hideous story, and I am very sorry you're going through this rigamarole.

Sadly, we're no stranger to the FAA wrinkling their nose at unusual certification requests. We've been down this road.

A few years ago, we went through this gauntlet to get a deaf pilot his license -- it took some time, the SODA, and then the checkride with an examiner who was in the loop WELL beforehand. I believe it was Lyn Carlson and conducted at KSNA John Wayne (that's right, we did our Deaf Pilot's checkride at a class C airport :D )

http://flycorona.blogspot.com/2006/10/and-another-successful-checkride.html

I cannot imagine what you're going through, and it sounds squarely like age discrimination to me, unless there is some medical or other detail that has been left out. If not, that's sickening and a black-eye on the aviation community.

We also jumped the same hoops to help a paraplegic pilot pursue his license -- also with profound amounts of research, the correct FAA-approved rudder pedal attachment, and a SODA regime as well. Sadly, that pilot did not complete (with us at least), and moved out of state before we got the ball rolling.

I can't tell who the hurdle is with, but if you have a completed SODA, and it was a requirement from the FAA, and you had your 60-day window granted, you should have flown. If the examiner got cold feet, you need a new DPE. If it was mandated to be flown with an FAA Examiner, they are required to either ride with you, or provide a DPE as an alternate if they cannot meet the timeframe.

Change FSDOs, Change Examiners, discuss things up-front with them. If it can be done within the regs, someone will champion your cause.

I hate hearing stories like this. Let me know if you would like some local advice or pointers, or contacts for the examiners we have used in the past for unusual circumstances.

Gee, it's a good advert for Light Sport Aircraft, isn't it? :mad2:
 
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I have been told by my numerous CFIs over the years that I am only a few weeks away from my check ride. Something always came up to stop it. I have been signed off twice for the ride. The first time the examiner did not show up. I called him and he asked if I had an equipment list for my airplane, we had previously discussed that.

I brought that issue up before this esteemed group and I learned that my aircraft was a 1978 and therefore did not require the list. My examiner, on the phone agreed we had discussed the matter, but he wanted an FAA ruling before he would come to the airport. I called the FSDO, waited about twenty minutes and they said I was correct, no equipment list is required. Then the "however". "If you do not have an equipment list, you can not possibly have a current weight and balance." Which is required.

I had to have a new weight and balance, a new equipment list, and new POH made up, at a cost of $1,400.00. It took Piper Aircraft almost two months to furnish those to my mechanic, who then had to work up the current weight and balance.

In the meantime I kept flying with my instructor who said I was doing worse and worse with each flight, I was not consistent, and was no longer ready for my check ride.

I changed instructors who, after one flight with me, said I should have had my ticket years ago. He ran me through a mock check ride and signed me off. We got a different examiner and I actually made it into the ground portion room with him.

He looked at my medical and the letter from the FAA stating I would need a SODA before my next medical was due in August. My, and my instructors, feeling was that I should take my check ride and at least get my license before the SODA, just in case.

The examiner said no way, he wanted the SODA first. End of check ride. Since my SODA, the examiner has been unable to schedule me due to being out of town and problems he was having with the FAA regarding his examination quota, which he said he had surpassed. He made it clear that there was no regulations regarding the number of check rides he could perform, but his "boss" at the FAA had put a cap on him of no more than 150 per year.

He sent me a text a few weeks ago saying he could give me the ride when he got back in town. I haven't heard anything from him since.

As far as my medicals go, I have one eye with 20/15 corrected vision. I have very mild pulmonary blockage and have passed two full hospital work ups. I take no medications for this issue. I have a pocketful of medical certificates.

There is of course a lot more to this story, I am only covering the last couple of years.

I probably will write a book about it all some day. The biggest impression I have of an older fellow getting his PPL is that it is more about learning to be a bureaucrat than it is about ones ability to actually fly and navigate an airplane.

Due to the economy, my money has pretty much run out as far as discretionary income goes. I will probably have to give up the whole thing soon. I hate the idea of quiting anything, so I'm agonizing a lot about all this.

Those who know me and are familiar with my attempt at flying all agree, something is definitely wrong. My brother is convinced it is my age, no one else has said otherwise.

I am not a fat old man who huffs and puffs with every step. I weigh 190lbs, I'm 6'1" tall. I'm in good shape and walk at least three miles every day. I run my own business, don't drink, smoke or do drugs. I read rather than watch TV. My mind and reflexes are excellent.

John
 
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It sounds like your local FSDO has it out for you. Seriously.

I would call Lyn Carlson and discuss the situation with her in full, and ask her advice. She can administer your ride, help with the FSDO, and even conduct the SODA herself if needed -- she was a tremendous help in getting things done. I am certain involving the examiner early and explaining your frustrations up front can lead to success. You need a DPE to champion you, and you need your local FSDO out of the loop.

Our pilot's plane also did not have an MEL. I *have* heard the MEL trick used to escape a checkride by an examiner before (in that case, it was to circumvent, some, ah, extreme personality deficits on the part of the student) -- so apparently this low shenanigan has spread around.

Such a disappointing set of events. I hate stories like this. Once you're signed off -- hell, setup 10 appointments with 10 DPEs. One of them will ride with ya. $500 cash should speak loudly enough -- just don't use a DPE from your local FSDO jurisdiction.

$0.02

- Mike
 
There are places in states other than your own that specialize in "finish ups" with their own DPE's. Cheap too. One of the only reasons I would unleash my former flight school on someone would be for this very thing. Just sayin' :aureola:
 
Such a disappointing set of events. I hate stories like this. Once you're signed off -- hell, setup 10 appointments with 10 DPEs. One of them will ride with ya. $500 cash should speak loudly enough -- just don't use a DPE from your local FSDO jurisdiction.

$0.02

- Mike

Amen!!! :yesnod:
 
I don't think it has anything to do with the local FSDO. This stuff started years ago. When I went to get my very first medical, I indicated on the form that I had mild pulmonary blockage. The local medical examiner said I was fine and just crossed that out by scribbling it into (almost) oblivion. He sent that on to the FAA in OKC. I then received the first of many letters from them wanting a full pulmonary work up.

I think my problems started with that form. I feel that the FAA believes it was myself who scribbled that out on my initial application. I think the FAA felt I was not being fully forthright with them, but again, I only guessing.

I do know I have a feeling that someone, somewhere, has made it clear to all involved that I be not issued a pilots license. Then again, I keep asking myself, why? I am not all that important. I can never have a commercial ticket due to my mono vision. The most I will ever do is chase a few hamburgers.

This whole flying business is just another thing that I wanted to accomplish before a cash in my chips. I don't know why I have taken it this far, probably just stubbornness.

Then all of my little paranoid thoughts might be a little too self centered, and all it really is about is what I started this thread out about, they don't want old guys flying.

John
 
You guys won't believe this, but a few minutes ago I received a call from my examiner setting up a check ride for Tuesday, the 13th. I don't know if it is related to this thread or not, very coincidental though.

Now I got to get all my ducks lined up and hope I can remember it all.

John
 
Good for you, John. We're rootin' for you.
 
You guys won't believe this, but a few minutes ago I received a call from my examiner setting up a check ride for Tuesday, the 13th.
At least it isn't Friday the 13th. :D

Good luck!
 
Good luck! There is a gentleman at our flight school that is slowly working on his private pilot certificate. I believe he's in his 80s. He's not in a huge hurry but does have his written scheduled for next week. I'm not quite sure if he'll finish due to funds but you never know. I know a lot of pilots, instructors and examiners in their ripe old ages and they're still doing fine.
 
John, I wish you luck, even though I trust you don't need it! Now just relax as you know their socks off! :)
 
Fingers crossed and sending some good juju south to ya!

When you pass, if you ever make it up here to Corona to water your piper on some cheap avgas, I'll gladly hoist an arnold palmer with ya at Bobby A's restaurant -- my treat. :)
 
You guys won't believe this, but a few minutes ago I received a call from my examiner setting up a check ride for Tuesday, the 13th. I don't know if it is related to this thread or not, very coincidental though.

Now I got to get all my ducks lined up and hope I can remember it all.

John


Great news!

:yesnod:
 
Just a simple aside and good luck and keep up the persistence.

The aircraft issues could have been solved by using a rental plane for a couple of hours. I know the difference issues but still in this case a quick solution to a lng drawn out problem for you.:mad2:

I had issues with my PP taking four months for a similar Examiner issue CFI onlty worked with one at an airport 20 minutes away who is busy handling all the CFI's in a wide area..............

When I took my IFR ride I used one of the three examiners woring out of a different airport, also 20 minutes away and 10 miles south of the first one.

My original CFI didn't like working with one of them and had not sent anyone to the others so I waited for one person. At the other flight school they handed me the list from the FAA website of all examiners in the state, recommended two of the three at that airport and said to let the CFI know when the ride was scheduled and he would verify the plane and paperwork were all in order to go over when I arrived for the ride.
 
Well, I woke up this morning and my equilibrium is all screwed up. My employee, Mary, had the same problem a week ago. Some sort of bug. I talked to my instructor and I need to get in three hours with him between now and Tuesday. The weather is going south on Monday.

Someday, I will set out to do something, and it will be easy, for the first time in my life. Like turning on a light switch without having to call an electrician after the house shorts out. (kidding)

I'm going forward with this no matter what. If I wake up Tuesday morning and I feel like I do today, I will cancel then. I haven't checked the weather along my rout to Las Vegas yet, I'll see how that looks later.

John
 
Well, I woke up this morning and my equilibrium is all screwed up. My employee, Mary, had the same problem a week ago. Some sort of bug. I talked to my instructor and I need to get in three hours with him between now and Tuesday. The weather is going south on Monday.

Someday, I will set out to do something, and it will be easy, for the first time in my life. Like turning on a light switch without having to call an electrician after the house shorts out. (kidding)

I'm going forward with this no matter what. If I wake up Tuesday morning and I feel like I do today, I will cancel then. I haven't checked the weather along my rout to Las Vegas yet, I'll see how that looks later.

John

All that matters is how you feel and what the weather is during the checkride.

Everything else can be addressed beforehand. On gameday, get in the game and focus on performance, not the rulebook.
 
Well, I woke up this morning and my equilibrium is all screwed up. My employee, Mary, had the same problem a week ago. Some sort of bug.

I'm a bit younger than you, and that happened to me too in conjunction with some virus. It was short lived hasn't happened again. Hopefully by the time you read this it will be gone already.

But it was unnerving not having full balance for day or so.
 
IF I was 67 I'd get in my plane and fly!! Screw them!! (only if you are a competent flyer ofcourse.) If you can pass the physical it seems very unfair that you can't fly. I have met plenty of sport pilots who fly knowing they can't pass a physical.
 
IF I was 67 I'd get in my plane and fly!! Screw them!! (only if you are a competent flyer ofcourse.) If you can pass the physical it seems very unfair that you can't fly. I have met plenty of sport pilots who fly knowing they can't pass a physical.

Your advise, although tempting, is not the rout I wish to pursue. Even though I am a reasonably competent pilot, flying without insurance makes little sense to me, even if I didn't have a home and a business to lose in a court award.

What if the noise did stop, and during an off airport landing, you permanently maimed someone on the ground?

I think I would have a whole lot of trouble living with myself if there was no way I could compensate that person with at least, some financial security.

Airplanes are not toys, contrary to popular belief. What they are is several thousand pounds of metal hanging above innocent peoples heads. It is not just about being a great pilot, it is also about accepting the responsibilities that accompany this hobby of ours.

Ya gots to take it seriously.

John
 
It's Friday night and I just received another call from my examiner. He had a scheduling problem and asked me if I could move the test to Monday. I told him I checked the weather and Monday is a no-go. I also told him about my equilibrium problem so we both agreed that changing the ride to Tuesday the 20th would be better all the way around.

This gives me time to prepare a little better for it and not have to rush that three hours with my instructor.

Ted, I did not mean to come off as such an ******* about your suggestion. I'm probably a little stressed with all the assorted things going on in my life right now. You have my apology.

John
 
No worries, i expected it. I do respect planes very much,if i didn't i would never put my children in them. It just seems to me you have spent way to much money and time to be denied what you love. keep at it and you will get it.:yesnod:
 
Well, John, it's Wednesday the 14th, so I came here to offer my congratulations. Looks like I'm a week early. Have a fun week, and then for the rest of your life.
 
This is Friday, a check of the weather for Tuesday, 20th, looks like a no go. It looks like marginal weather all next week.

I flew for three hours with my instructor yesterday for my second sign off with him, I hadn't been up in over two weeks. The visibility was poor, and after a diversion to Palomar, the flight back along the coast at 800' to 1,000' was pretty much scud running.

Right after passing Mount Soledad, my transponder stopped working. I called the avionics guy when we landed and he said he could not get to it until Monday.

I'm starting to become convinced that the flying Gods are just having a little fun with me, and have no intentions of ever giving me a license. Back in December, I thought it was almost over and I would have my ticket by Christmas. Not even close. This does not end on Tuesday. My biggest problem, I really am running out of money for this thing, and may have to hang it up soon. Frustrated is an understatement.

There might be a very nice 78 Warrior on the market soon. There is a picture of it on my info page.

John
 
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The visibility was poor, and after a diversion to Palomar, the flight back along the coast at 800' to 1,000' was pretty much scud running.

I'd put this one in the "good things that happened to me" column. First of all, if you were at 800 to 1000' AGL and still were below clouds, you were not "Scud running." You were flying VFR in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC).

It's a good lesson for every student pilot to see how low legal VFR can be.

If you were at 499' AGL or below, and visibility was changing frequently from 3 to 1 mile as you scrapped the bottoms of wispy clouds -- well, that would be "scud running."
 
I'm starting to become convinced that the flying Gods are just having a little fun with me, and have no intentions of ever giving me a license.

It's not given it's earned. This is the perseverance over frustration and decision making part of the test.
 
I'd put this one in the "good things that happened to me" column. First of all, if you were at 800 to 1000' AGL and still were below clouds, you were not "Scud running." You were flying VFR in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC).
Funny, at 600 hours TT I would still consider that scud running. And if the clouds were lower than 1300-1500 AGL around here, it wouldn't even be legal VFR (since until you're well out in the boonies, Class E starts at 700 AGL).
 
Funny, at 600 hours TT I would still consider that scud running. And if the clouds were lower than 1300-1500 AGL around here, it wouldn't even be legal VFR (since until you're well out in the boonies, Class E starts at 700 AGL).


It really depends on the airplane. In a Warrior it's easy to slow up to 80 knots or even 70. Plenty of time to see any really tall obstructions.

Have you flown at VFR minimums? It's still VFR, even though it feels awfully tight.
 
Note that compliance with the 91.155 cloud clearance/vis mins isn't sufficient to be legal -- beware of being driven below the 91.119 minimum altitudes while trying to comply with the "500 below" rule in controlled airspace, or otherwise dodging clouds. Also, just because you're legal VMC doesn't mean you're not taking unusual or even unacceptable risks (what I'd call "scud-running," a term for which there is no real definition), especially when you get down in G-space using the "1 mile/clear of clouds" rule -- you can become "dead right" doing that.
 
It really depends on the airplane. In a Warrior it's easy to slow up to 80 knots or even 70. Plenty of time to see any really tall obstructions.

Have you flown at VFR minimums? It's still VFR, even though it feels awfully tight.
You can slow up, sure, but that 800 feet ceiling and fall on you FAST. I sure wouldn't try to fly anywhere VFR with a 1000 ft ceiling. All it takes is a bit of change in weather and it'll force you into the ground.
 
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