General Officer vs. Pilot in Command

wanttaja

wanttaja

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Ron Wanttaja
I seem to recall that the Air Force doesn't allow generals to fly solo in aircraft (I think I remember it because Yeager was granted a waiver when he got his star).

So... if Captain Smith is flying with General Jones, who is the Pilot in Command? If Captain Smith decides General Jones is botching the ILS, can he demand a go-around or take over himself? Is he *actually* PIC, or will he just have committed mutiny?

Ron "Arrr" Wanttaja
 
My reply is based on civilian thinking and so probably isn't applicable. But some planes (Learjet?) aren't supposed to be flown solo. Who is the PIC in that case?

Or, the make it more military, a lieutenant and colonel are flying together, who is PIC?

I read that in the Navy, the master of the ship is in charge and the admiral or commodore don't get much of a say.
 
I've read many biographies and memoirs.....but no first hand knowledge. My understanding even a Warrant flying a helicopter can be PIC over a superior officer. The idea as I understand it is the senior rank might be in charge of the mission, the aircraft commander is in charge of the aircraft, period.
 
I don’t think it’s policy in any branch to not let a GO fly solo. Seen articles for generals flying their last F-16 flight solo.

As far as PIC flying dual cockpit, I don’t know AF regs specify the most senior ranking person is PIC. Army regs, the commander of the unit designates PIC based on experience and not rank. I flew as PIC many times as a CW3 with a Ltc or Col as copilot (SIC).
 
Brad W said:
I've read many biographies and memoirs.....but no first hand knowledge. My understanding even a Warrant flying a helicopter can be PIC over a superior officer. The idea as I understand it is the senior rank might be in charge of the mission, the aircraft commander is in charge of the aircraft, period.
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Nice and succinct.
 
wanttaja said:
I seem to recall that the Air Force doesn't allow generals to fly solo in aircraft (I think I remember it because Yeager was granted a waiver when he got his star).

So... if Captain Smith is flying with General Jones, who is the Pilot in Command? If Captain Smith decides General Jones is botching the ILS, can he demand a go-around or take over himself? Is he *actually* PIC, or will he just have committed mutiny?

Ron "Arrr" Wanttaja
Click to expand...


Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, general officers would always fly with an instructor or evaluator in SAC. The general was never the pilot in command. Although, in my experience, some thought they were. Which is why they always flew (in the seat) with an experienced instructor pilot. DIGAS principle ruled.
 
Um, no. No such rule about O-7+ not being able to fly solo. Happens all the time, especially when it comes to F-teeners flexing about whatever new shiny toy the MIC got them this year for Xmas.

When it comes to seeing eye dogs in multi-person aircraft, in the USAF there is no rank in the cockpit. We go by seat qual, not rank. Yes, in practice humans are petty and everything is political, but by the book there's no rank in the cockpit. I've been the Aircraft Commander of a nuclear PL1 asset internationally, where I was the lowest rank holding member of the entire crew.

I've also been the A-code (mil equivalent to FAR 1 definition of PIC) as an O-4 with an O-8 sitting in my other pit. He was rightly told to sit on his hands and not touch anything yellow-jacket colored. I did add "please sir, thank you", of course. I am an officer, and by definition a gentleman after all. :rofl:

The reality is that most of them appreciate the camaraderie of olden days, things that today are relegated to our closed door "meetings", since speaking loudly and frankly at the squadron bar (not even allowed to be called that, we have to call it heritage rooms now) is generally eschewed these days. So being told by a 3,300+ hour UV-faded patches wearing Iron Major (;)<--) that your 3K setup was a graping mess, is viewed relatively fondly by those who wish to retain credibility with their flying and fighting subordinates. It's the discredited boot-licker careerists that usually try to pull rank in the cockpit or the squadron bar. But credibility is something you can't feign your way around in a room full of type A-(hole)s.

ETA: As to the distinction of aircraft commander vs mission commander. Yes that does exist in certain contexts, but in the instance where the mission commander is on board an aircraft where the aircraft commander is of lower rank, again the A-code still retains ultimate safety of flight authority over the ownship. Again, rank is immaterial.
 
Used to have a BDE Col just show up in the AM and kick my copilot to the curb. Wasn’t even qualified in the aircraft. Had no clue about EPs or even CRM. I just let him “wiggle sticks” and I did all the hard work. Guy hardly ever said a word the entire flight. :D

Air Mission Commander (AMC) for the flight used to be rank but now its chosen by experience. Usually though, we’d let the highest ranking person take AMC since the title really doesn’t matter.
 
wanttaja said:
I seem to recall that the Air Force doesn't allow generals to fly solo in aircraft (I think I remember it because Yeager was granted a waiver when he got his star).

So... if Captain Smith is flying with General Jones, who is the Pilot in Command? If Captain Smith decides General Jones is botching the ILS, can he demand a go-around or take over himself? Is he *actually* PIC, or will he just have committed mutiny?

Ron "Arrr" Wanttaja
Click to expand...

This happens not infrequently (at least it did when I was on active duty). A senior officer flying with an aircraft commander that is his subordinate will usually get to choose who he flies with. And, an aircraft commander who flies with an officer that is his senior will usually be someone who's either a good diplomat or a good friend. You don't want to be the guy that ****es off the wing-commander over proficiency hop.

That being said, the few flights a crewed on where a very senior officer was in the cockpit, they were either very competent pilots, or were humble enough to let the aircraft commander lead the show.
 
I don't know anything about Generals but there was an incident in the UK involving a military aircraft and a Prince. The latter had been a trained pilot in the RAF to some level. He didn't do any DIY again.

"the aircraft touched down on its nose wheel some 1,500 feet down the runway, travelling 32 knots too fast with a 12 knots tailwind component.
...
the pilot handling the aircraft at the time of the accident was HRH The Prince of Wales
...
the Board of Inquiry found the captain 'negligent' in that '(he failed) to intervene when the aircraft performance and limitations were exceeded in the final stages of the flight'"

Looks like he was "Wings" qualified, and multi-eng trained.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/187927

18576186-7472903-image-m-95_1568721775314.jpg



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...arles-crashed-Queens-Flight-jet-1m-smash.html
 
You can bet if the aircraft gets damaged the General wasn’t PIC.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
My reply is based on civilian thinking and so probably isn't applicable. But some planes (Learjet?) aren't supposed to be flown solo. Who is the PIC in that case?

Or, the make it more military, a lieutenant and colonel are flying together, who is PIC?

I read that in the Navy, the master of the ship is in charge and the admiral or commodore don't get much of a say.
Click to expand...
But the captain (master of the ship) commanding officer (the Admiral) should be able to immediately relieve the captain of duty and take command. But he/she would need to be a line officer and hold certain qualifications - which that captain's commanding officer normally would. All highly uncommon and often very short lived.
 
Another thing, sometimes the senior ranking member isn’t even qualified as a PIC. Probably rare for a general not to be PIC unless it’s an aircraft they’re not rated in though.

Speaking of GO flying solo. Got a Navy Achievement Medal in Thailand from MG Anderson who flew in on a single seat Harrier. When you’re CG of the MAW, you can pretty much take an aircraft out at your leisure.
 
I have flow with two General Officers and they were both excellent pilots. One of them flew an external load mission and nailed the hookup on the first try in a brand new helicopter and the other one flew one of the best ILS approaches I have ever seen in LIFR right down to the minima.

Neither of them were current, but I, as the PIC and Instructor Pilot, could allow them on the controls as a rated aviator.

Watching them fly better than just about anyone was really impressive and I enjoyed every minute of it.

I have also flown with some Colonels who couldn't keep the dirty side down!
 
The person with the * by their name on the flight orders is the PIC in the Air Force.
 
IK04 said:
Watching them fly better than just about anyone was really impressive and I enjoyed every minute of it.
Click to expand...
True at any level…I watched a 1000-hour Archer pilot ensure that everybody passed a jet type rating course. Truly enjoyed it.
 
wanttaja said:
I seem to recall that the Air Force doesn't allow generals to fly solo in aircraft (I think I remember it because Yeager was granted a waiver when he got his star).

So... if Captain Smith is flying with General Jones, who is the Pilot in Command? If Captain Smith decides General Jones is botching the ILS, can he demand a go-around or take over himself? Is he *actually* PIC, or will he just have committed mutiny?

Ron "Arrr" Wanttaja
Click to expand...

I’m the Air Force, it’s whomever has the “A Code” on the AF Form 781 is the PIC. I’ve seen where a Capt has the A code with 2 LTC’s on board.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I got to witness the very first flight of a C-5B with a 2LT as the PIC. Previously unheard of.

Nothing unusual happened. Weird.
 
IK04 said:
I got to witness the very first flight of a C-5B with a 2LT as the PIC. Previously unheard of.

Nothing unusual happened. Weird.
Click to expand...

Something unusual happened for a 2LT to become qualified as a C-5 Aircraft Commander.
 
In the Navy, the PIC was the person that signed for the aircraft. On my platform, that person was called the CAPC (Carrier Aircraft Plane Commander). We frequently had the pleasure of flying around whatever dignitary (military or civilian) because we had the seats. The CAPC maintained PIC, even he was not the PF and even if he was junior.

The Strike Group Commander (O-7) for one of my deployments would fly combat missions in-country by himself. He would also do impromptu air shows in between cycles... so there's that.
 
IK04 said:
I got to witness the very first flight of a C-5B with a 2LT as the PIC. Previously unheard of.

Nothing unusual happened. Weird.
Click to expand...

They must have been a rockstar.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Um, no. No such rule about O-7+ not being able to fly solo. Happens all the time, especially when it comes to F-teeners flexing about whatever new shiny toy the MIC got them this year for Xmas.

When it comes to seeing eye dogs in multi-person aircraft, in the USAF there is no rank in the cockpit. We go by seat qual, not rank. Yes, in practice humans are petty and everything is political, but by the book there's no rank in the cockpit. I've been the Aircraft Commander of a nuclear PL1 asset internationally, where I was the lowest rank holding member of the entire crew.

I've also been the A-code (mil equivalent to FAR 1 definition of PIC) as an O-4 with an O-8 sitting in my other pit. He was rightly told to sit on his hands and not touch anything yellow-jacket colored. I did add "please sir, thank you", of course. I am an officer, and by definition a gentleman after all. :rofl:

The reality is that most of them appreciate the camaraderie of olden days, things that today are relegated to our closed door "meetings", since speaking loudly and frankly at the squadron bar (not even allowed to be called that, we have to call it heritage rooms now) is generally eschewed these days. So being told by a 3,300+ hour UV-faded patches wearing Iron Major (;)<--) that your 3K setup was a graping mess, is viewed relatively fondly by those who wish to retain credibility with their flying and fighting subordinates. It's the discredited boot-licker careerists that usually try to pull rank in the cockpit or the squadron bar. But credibility is something you can't feign your way around in a room full of type A-(hole)s.

ETA: As to the distinction of aircraft commander vs mission commander. Yes that does exist in certain contexts, but in the instance where the mission commander is on board an aircraft where the aircraft commander is of lower rank, again the A-code still retains ultimate safety of flight authority over the ownship. Again, rank is immaterial.
Click to expand...

I don’t understand much of this, but I like it.
-Civilian
 
I really appreciate the detail of this thread - but understand little of it.

Sigh.......

But thank you to all that serve the governments of the world, and make our life as blissfully-dumb civilians possible.
 
Easy to understand version. Generals fly solo and rank isn’t involved when it comes to PIC designation in the military.
 
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