Toby
Cleared for Takeoff
Nice picture, Spike. I see you're considering a new avatar.SCCutler said:
Gaston's Made it home safe thread.
- Thread starter EdFred
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Toby
Cleared for Takeoff
We might pick out a few spots in the center of the country, some further north or west or whatever, and rotate among them so people in all areas would feel they could get to the fly-ins. It will always be a challenge for those from the coasts, though.sshekels said:
poadeleted20
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Made it home safe -- but it I can't say it was never in doubt. We stopped for gas and lunch at Louisville Bowman. Had a good salad (Fran) and sub (Ron) at Bearno's (Mazzoni's is closed on Sundays) and got back in. Taxied out, all systems go, cleared onto runway 6 for departure, power up, rotate, climbing out, 100 feet, 85 knots...
...and the engine rolls back to 2000 RPM, and there’s NO place to go straight ahead. Now what?
No warning, everything ops normal, and the engine just suddenly sagged, and the plane stopped climbing. My first thought was “land straight ahead,” but there was no way we could do that (too far down the runway and too high), and the dense trees past the departure end looked very inhospitable and I didn’t think I could clear them. The engine was still running, I had good speed and a bit of altitude (which I could hold even if I couldn’t climb), so keying the mike and hollering “Mayday Mayday Mayday,” I looked around and saw that I could make a 270 to the left back onto Runway 14, and that’s what I did.
My big thought was “keep the speed up” so I could maneuver without stalling, but at the same time thinking that if I started to run out of energy, I’d just level the wings and land on whatever surface there was ahead no matter how bad it looked. We made the turn, but I was a bit slow picking up the left wing, and scraped the wing tip on the runway before touching down. There was enough room to stop with the brakes without skidding, and clear the runway.
Whew.
Taxied to the parking area we’d just left a couple of minutes before, shut down, and just sat there.
In retrospect, while having survived the experience suggest that I didn’t make the wrong decision, I’m not sure I made the best one. I had enough speed, power, and altitude for a 180, but no way to do the “impossible turn” to get back onto the runway from which I had departed. I might have been better off landing in the grass parallel to the departure runway, but we were crossing a lot of things which looked like they could flip us, and so I continued to the runway I thought I could make, with Plan B (in event of further power loss) as discussed above – level the wings and land on whatever was there under control.
Damage to the airplane was minimal – a quarter-sized scrape on the lower front of the left wingtip and a bit larger area scraped off the back corner. No indication of any wing structural damage, no marks on the aileron, no play in the aileron, no fuel leaking from the full tanks the next day when I went back to start figuring out what to do next.
What happened? Can’t be entirely sure, but after several phone conversations with David Fletcher, Bill Scott, and Bob Steward and a number of engine test runs and component examinations, I believe the air filter slipped out of position in the airbox and part of the foam tape used to buffer the filter against the air box front wall got into the carb throat. The filter was laying against the access door when I opened it, and when I pulled it out, half the circumference of the foam tape was trailing loose. Now, that could have been pulled loose by the removal process, but there’s no way to be sure. In addition, there was no aluminum bracket or phenolic block on the access door to hold the filter where it belongs – and no indication (i.e., rivet holes in the door) to suggest there ever was. David is researching this further, and this is something I intend to follow up on as a fleet wide issue.
We did a lot of other checks – the spark plugs were clean, with no sign of lead, carbon, or oil. We (the three wise men and I) decided that the best thing to do was put the air filter in the baggage compartment rather than the engine compartment and try it again. Engine run-ups and carb/mixture checks were all normal other than idling a bit higher than Bill Scott says it should (800 vs 650) and a somewhat higher than normal RPM rise during leaning at 1000 RPM (but not any other setting, David and Bill disagree on whether that’s significant or not). For logistical reasons, Fran and Duke departed Louisville in a one-way rental car mid-morning, so I was solo for the trouble-shooting and testing. After a few high-speed taxi runs, I took the plane up, circled the field a few times, and headed east. Four totally uneventful hours later, 22RL and I were home (Fran and Duke are still somewhere out on the highway).
Lessons learned? Sorry, gang – ain’t had time for the analysis, just the narrative. I will say that I think my fighter training was important in being dead set on keeping my energy up and not being afraid of low level maneuvering. In addition, a lot of hours of “feel” came into play – I did not once look inside the cockpit after the initial look at the engine indications. It was all outside, looking at the terrain and obstacles, and flying by feel of how much AOA I was pulling, and being able to project my flight path over the ground (ground reference maneuvers, anyone?).
That’s as much as I can write tonight. Keep it safe.
...and the engine rolls back to 2000 RPM, and there’s NO place to go straight ahead. Now what?
No warning, everything ops normal, and the engine just suddenly sagged, and the plane stopped climbing. My first thought was “land straight ahead,” but there was no way we could do that (too far down the runway and too high), and the dense trees past the departure end looked very inhospitable and I didn’t think I could clear them. The engine was still running, I had good speed and a bit of altitude (which I could hold even if I couldn’t climb), so keying the mike and hollering “Mayday Mayday Mayday,” I looked around and saw that I could make a 270 to the left back onto Runway 14, and that’s what I did.
My big thought was “keep the speed up” so I could maneuver without stalling, but at the same time thinking that if I started to run out of energy, I’d just level the wings and land on whatever surface there was ahead no matter how bad it looked. We made the turn, but I was a bit slow picking up the left wing, and scraped the wing tip on the runway before touching down. There was enough room to stop with the brakes without skidding, and clear the runway.
Whew.
Taxied to the parking area we’d just left a couple of minutes before, shut down, and just sat there.
In retrospect, while having survived the experience suggest that I didn’t make the wrong decision, I’m not sure I made the best one. I had enough speed, power, and altitude for a 180, but no way to do the “impossible turn” to get back onto the runway from which I had departed. I might have been better off landing in the grass parallel to the departure runway, but we were crossing a lot of things which looked like they could flip us, and so I continued to the runway I thought I could make, with Plan B (in event of further power loss) as discussed above – level the wings and land on whatever was there under control.
Damage to the airplane was minimal – a quarter-sized scrape on the lower front of the left wingtip and a bit larger area scraped off the back corner. No indication of any wing structural damage, no marks on the aileron, no play in the aileron, no fuel leaking from the full tanks the next day when I went back to start figuring out what to do next.
What happened? Can’t be entirely sure, but after several phone conversations with David Fletcher, Bill Scott, and Bob Steward and a number of engine test runs and component examinations, I believe the air filter slipped out of position in the airbox and part of the foam tape used to buffer the filter against the air box front wall got into the carb throat. The filter was laying against the access door when I opened it, and when I pulled it out, half the circumference of the foam tape was trailing loose. Now, that could have been pulled loose by the removal process, but there’s no way to be sure. In addition, there was no aluminum bracket or phenolic block on the access door to hold the filter where it belongs – and no indication (i.e., rivet holes in the door) to suggest there ever was. David is researching this further, and this is something I intend to follow up on as a fleet wide issue.
We did a lot of other checks – the spark plugs were clean, with no sign of lead, carbon, or oil. We (the three wise men and I) decided that the best thing to do was put the air filter in the baggage compartment rather than the engine compartment and try it again. Engine run-ups and carb/mixture checks were all normal other than idling a bit higher than Bill Scott says it should (800 vs 650) and a somewhat higher than normal RPM rise during leaning at 1000 RPM (but not any other setting, David and Bill disagree on whether that’s significant or not). For logistical reasons, Fran and Duke departed Louisville in a one-way rental car mid-morning, so I was solo for the trouble-shooting and testing. After a few high-speed taxi runs, I took the plane up, circled the field a few times, and headed east. Four totally uneventful hours later, 22RL and I were home (Fran and Duke are still somewhere out on the highway).
Lessons learned? Sorry, gang – ain’t had time for the analysis, just the narrative. I will say that I think my fighter training was important in being dead set on keeping my energy up and not being afraid of low level maneuvering. In addition, a lot of hours of “feel” came into play – I did not once look inside the cockpit after the initial look at the engine indications. It was all outside, looking at the terrain and obstacles, and flying by feel of how much AOA I was pulling, and being able to project my flight path over the ground (ground reference maneuvers, anyone?).
That’s as much as I can write tonight. Keep it safe.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Whoa!
Glad you made it back safely. Like my instructor said one time, "I'm glad it was you in that plane and not someone else." And I say that because there's a few of us on here (myself definitely included) who may have not been around to write the narrative if we experienced that. And I would certainly rather read a write up like that from a the pilot than the NTSB report. Especially someone I know personally.
Glad you made it back safely. Like my instructor said one time, "I'm glad it was you in that plane and not someone else." And I say that because there's a few of us on here (myself definitely included) who may have not been around to write the narrative if we experienced that. And I would certainly rather read a write up like that from a the pilot than the NTSB report. Especially someone I know personally.
Arnold
Cleared for Takeoff
Well done.
Toby
Cleared for Takeoff
Oh, wow, Ron.
I think you made a very good decision in a split second. Look how it all turned out. That's really all that matters.
I think you made a very good decision in a split second. Look how it all turned out. That's really all that matters.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ron Levy said:
Wow, Ron.
Glad you made it back safely, and glad (if that's the right word) that you were at an airport with reasonable services instead of out in the sticks. I'd hate to have seen that happen at Gaston's.
Sorry we didn't get the chance to visit more. It was a busy weekend.
Hope all works out with the plane.
Best,
bill
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Glad it didn't happen at Gastons (in view of the terrain/obstructions), might have been swimming or worse after a 'runway inspection'!
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Oh man if you scraped a tip, you sure didn't have much energy to spare, nice flying!
SkyHog
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Everything Offends Me
OMG Ron!! I'm very happy you made it safely home.
A change in drawers would have been in order for me (if I'd have made the right decision in that case)
A change in drawers would have been in order for me (if I'd have made the right decision in that case)
gibbons
En-Route
Ron,
Great job! But after flying with you I'm not the least bit surprised.
Still, I can't tell you how glad we all are that things worked out well. We sure would have missed old Duke.
Great job! But after flying with you I'm not the least bit surprised.
Still, I can't tell you how glad we all are that things worked out well. We sure would have missed old Duke.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Say, shouldn't we get Greg to give up his "Best Save" award to Ron?
Diana
Final Approach
Ron Levy said:
Wow Ron, glad the three of you are OK. Looks like you did a great job of getting down safely. Any more thoughts today?
AdamZ
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Adam Zucker
N2212R said:
Ed couldnt' have mirrored my thoughts better!! Glad you are Safe!!!
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Your ops officer would be proud of you. Yowse!
It is the unforseen and simple that ruins your day, not the insidious nor complex. And it is for this reason that we need to teach the impossible turn at BFR. How to do, how to manage, when to do the trees. I do wish, as you suggest, that GA aircraft had AOA indicators. It would be much simpler than the discipline otherwise required.
Good to hear you made it.
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Holy Cow, Ron! So glad you were able to turn back and get down safe. As Ed Fred said, most of us would probably been much worse off.
Question: Would have pulling the carb heat given your engine an alternate breathing path, or was the tape too far downstream for that to have helped?
Question: Would have pulling the carb heat given your engine an alternate breathing path, or was the tape too far downstream for that to have helped?
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Anthony
Ron Levy said:
J*sus Ron. Glad you, Fran and Duke are OK. That story scared the hell out of me! Is your air filter configuration specific to a Tigerized Cheetah or is it similar to a standard Tiger or standard Cheetah?
Nice job on the emergency procedures and getting down unharmed.
Toby
Cleared for Takeoff
I'd like to do this. We have nowhere to go from our runways. Nowhere really safe, that is, or that doesn't endanger people on the ground.bbchien said:
Bob Bement
Pattern Altitude
I was just curious Ron, Did Duke decide to go with Fran in the car? Or was that Fran's idea?
Chip, You were kidding about missing Duke weren't you?
Chip, You were kidding about missing Duke weren't you?
Eamon
Line Up and Wait
Good Job Ron. Glad you are safe.
gibbons
En-Route
No way! But I was kidding about only missing Duke.Bob Bement said:
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Multi time
Bruce,
I still can't believe you're apologizing. I loved every minute, I learned, and 0.3 in a Seneca with an instructor not nearly of your caliber up here would cost $80. So, Thank You!
bbchien said:
Bruce,
I still can't believe you're apologizing. I loved every minute, I learned, and 0.3 in a Seneca with an instructor not nearly of your caliber up here would cost $80. So, Thank You!
poadeleted20
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Maybe -- probably should have pulled it just to see what happened.Bill Jennings said:
BTW, as a result of this, we've identified an issue with differing air filters and air box designs in the Tiger fleet (design changed starting with s/n 400). The older air box is better with a physically larger retrofit filter that doesn't fit in the newer ones, while the original filter fits too loosely in the older air box (that's why the foam tape -- to help hold it still) but just right in the newer ones without the tape. In addition, the older air boxes need a little widget on the access door to hold the filter (especially the original filter) in position -- no such on mine. We're going to take this for action in the Grumman community, both sorting out which filter to use and checking for the widget.
poadeleted20
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Didn't have much choice, since I would have had to take the airlines home last night if I couldn't get the plane flyable, and we couldn't put Duke on the airlines with 95F ramp temps.Bob Bement said:
I got a chuckle out of that.
poadeleted20
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The "old" airbox in the Cheeger came out of a 1979 Tiger, so you can't be sure what you've got unless you look. I think we'll be posting pictures to help on the AYA web site as soon as we can put it together. I can check it if you stop by Millville NJ (MIV) on Saturday (we're doing a formation flying practice session) or fly down to SBY on Friday (I'll probably be working on the air box/filter and the wing tip).Anthony said:
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
I remember the Cessna I flew had a Brackett filter assy AD because of the foam or metal screen(?) between the airbox, filter assy. If not aligned properly or too loose I think it was, it would get sucked in.
I have found my own (IO520) air filter carelessly installed by past mechanics (it is a cylinder of 'foam', wrapped around an oval metal frame, sitting in an aluminum box), if not meticulously installed, bits of the filter can get trapped under the frame, looking like it could perhaps pinched off and sucked in.
I hope a poor installation job doesn't become an AD
I have found my own (IO520) air filter carelessly installed by past mechanics (it is a cylinder of 'foam', wrapped around an oval metal frame, sitting in an aluminum box), if not meticulously installed, bits of the filter can get trapped under the frame, looking like it could perhaps pinched off and sucked in.
I hope a poor installation job doesn't become an AD
poadeleted3
Pattern Altitude
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Ron, are you planning on reporting your findings to the FAA for SB or AD action?
Glad you and yours are OK!
Glad you and yours are OK!
poadeleted20
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Possibly, once we figure everything out, maybe an SDR. However, SB's (which come from the manufacturer or TC holder but still go to all registered owners and into the archive files for the type along with the AD's so mechanics and new owners can retrieve them) don't require FAA involvement, just AD's, and if it gets to that, we'll certainly try to keep it an SB to save folks time and aggro. We'll work with Fletchair on this as they are responsible for the AA-5B Tigers (Tiger Aircraft only being responsible for the AG-5B's).Joe Williams said:
poadeleted20
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POA'ers:
I hope everyone will forgive the lack of individual replies to well-wishers on our excitement on Sunday. Fran, Duke, and I do appreciate your sentiments, but there's just too many of you out there and my fingers are getting sore from typing about the technical/safety issues.
Ron
I hope everyone will forgive the lack of individual replies to well-wishers on our excitement on Sunday. Fran, Duke, and I do appreciate your sentiments, but there's just too many of you out there and my fingers are getting sore from typing about the technical/safety issues.
Ron
Ron Levy said:
Ron, so close in time - on the trip back - from what I think all of us who attended feel was a visit with "family," hits very close to home. We are reminded: if it can happen to Ron, it can happen to each of us.
You used skill and training to pull it out. You tell us all about it, we all learn and are reminded to practice, just in case.
There's nothing to forgive. We're just glad you and yours are OK.
Bob Bement
Pattern Altitude
Well said Spike, I would like to second that!
Carol
Line Up and Wait
Finally back.
Two nights in Jonesboro waiting for the right moment. At least there was a guest laundry at the hotel.
Three hours of bouncing around in hot weather. Yuck. But the Comanche did well. I logged about 3 hours "actual" for the whole trip.
Two nights in Jonesboro waiting for the right moment. At least there was a guest laundry at the hotel.
Three hours of bouncing around in hot weather. Yuck. But the Comanche did well. I logged about 3 hours "actual" for the whole trip.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Re: Gaston's - The last one's home.
Hi everyone,
I made it home from my Gaston's + adventure last night. Or, rather, early this morning since I departed Houston, TX at 3:52 PM after waiting for my carb heat cable to be replaced. I landed safely at Madison at 1:40 AM in spite of the jerk who shined a spotlight at me on final. (Yes, I reported it to the Dane County Sheriff's office at the airport.)
My missions on this vacation were to make it to the Gaston's fly-in (of course), see my friend Christy and my sister in Houston, get the super-cool inside tour of NASA from my sister, and to eat at Lambert's in Sikeston on the way back (I caught three rolls. I'm happy to report that all of the above were even better than I'd hoped for!
My logbook is now 20+ hours fatter (I think I'm over 200 now), and I used my trip back from Houston yesterday as the long commercial solo cross country. (EFD - SIK - RFD - MSN). Sweet!
Now, off to the airport for some more flying. Fly like mad today and tomorrow, and IR checkride Sunday morning at 7:30 (ugh)!
Hi everyone,
I made it home from my Gaston's + adventure last night. Or, rather, early this morning since I departed Houston, TX at 3:52 PM after waiting for my carb heat cable to be replaced. I landed safely at Madison at 1:40 AM in spite of the jerk who shined a spotlight at me on final. (Yes, I reported it to the Dane County Sheriff's office at the airport.)
My missions on this vacation were to make it to the Gaston's fly-in (of course), see my friend Christy and my sister in Houston, get the super-cool inside tour of NASA from my sister, and to eat at Lambert's in Sikeston on the way back (I caught three rolls
. I'm happy to report that all of the above were even better than I'd hoped for! My logbook is now 20+ hours fatter (I think I'm over 200 now), and I used my trip back from Houston yesterday as the long commercial solo cross country. (EFD - SIK - RFD - MSN). Sweet!
Now, off to the airport for some more flying. Fly like mad today and tomorrow, and IR checkride Sunday morning at 7:30 (ugh)!
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Re: Gaston's - The last one's home.
Fun trip! Knock 'em dead, Kent!
flyingcheesehead said:
Fun trip! Knock 'em dead, Kent!
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Re: Gaston's - The last one's home.
Go get 'em, Kent!! Can't wait to read your checkride story!
And, I just read Ron's "Mayday" post... HOLY COW. Way to go, Ron... will Fran fly again? I know that spooks some pilots when that happens... it can have long term affects on passengers.
I think she'll fly with you again--you obviously are a very talented, knowledgeable, and safe aviator. Now, what Duke will do... ;-)
Troy
flyingcheesehead said:
Go get 'em, Kent!! Can't wait to read your checkride story!
And, I just read Ron's "Mayday" post... HOLY COW. Way to go, Ron... will Fran fly again? I know that spooks some pilots when that happens... it can have long term affects on passengers.
I think she'll fly with you again--you obviously are a very talented, knowledgeable, and safe aviator. Now, what Duke will do... ;-)
Troy