Gaining authority

Tom-D

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Let's say Ron was hunting in a Grumman Salvage yard and found the ultimate modification to his aircraft, and just had to have it installed.

how would he gain approval to get it done, when he has no paper other than the receipt he paid for the parts he got.

what would he have to know to start?
 
Cue Lucy, Charlie Brown, and a football...
 
Then why did it need an STC? Somehow the intellectual property has to get licensed to that data tag.

Some of the old STCs are now authorized replacement parts, LED lights for example.

But what if the fuselage he removed the parts from had a N Number would that make any difference?
 
Some of the old STCs are now authorized replacement parts, LED lights for example.

But what if the fuselage he removed the parts from had a N Number would that make any difference?

But you have to own the STC to begin with. You can't move STC parts from plane to plane unless you already have the STC on the plane you are moving it to. Otherwise you need permission from whomever owns the intellectual property for the STC. Supported or unsupported makes no issue in civil law.
 
But you have to own the STC to begin with. You can't move STC parts from plane to plane unless you already have the STC on the plane you are moving it to. Otherwise you need permission from whomever owns the intellectual property for the STC. Supported or unsupported makes no issue in civil law.

No you don't, if the parts that were required STC on the salvaged aircraft are now authorized replacement parts, it is a simple log book entry just like he bought them from the manufacturer.

But if they are not, how would you gain authority to use them?
 
No you don't, if the parts that were required STC on the salvaged aircraft are now authorized replacement parts, it is a simple log book entry just like he bought them from the manufacturer.

But if they are not, how would you gain authority to use them?

You have to get permission from whomever now owns the intellectual property.
 
No you don't, if the parts that were required STC on the salvaged aircraft are now authorized replacement parts, it is a simple log book entry just like he bought them from the manufacturer.

But if they are not, how would you gain authority to use them?

Sorry Tom but no. Especially if there was an ICA, AFMS or some sort of additional airworthiness limitation attached to that ICA. The other thing to consider is it a life limited part.

Part of the STC process is feedback. The STC holder is required to report any failure of thier alteration. To help with that they attemp to track make model serial number it is installed on.

if I bought a salvaged autopilot I would still need to buy the STC to install it on another airplane.

Random brush strokes paint bad pictures.
 
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the real answer: it depends.
 
Let's say Ron was hunting in a Grumman Salvage yard and found the ultimate modification to his aircraft, and just had to have it installed.

how would he gain approval to get it done, when he has no paper other than the receipt he paid for the parts he got.

what would he have to know to start?

No approval needed if Ron owns an experimental. No STCs, no approvals, no fuss. Common sense rules the day, not paperwork. If you want a modification or add something you just do it. Simple is good. :D
 
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Let's say Ron was hunting in a Grumman Salvage yard and found the ultimate modification to his aircraft, and just had to have it installed.

how would he gain approval to get it done, when he has no paper other than the receipt he paid for the parts he got.

what would he have to know to start?

I don't know, but I'm sure 100 posts down the road we'll find out.
 
Let's say Ron was hunting in a Grumman Salvage yard and found the ultimate modification to his aircraft, and just had to have it installed.

how would he gain approval to get it done, when he has no paper other than the receipt he paid for the parts he got.

what would he have to know to start?

There is no easy answer. It depends on the facts related to what is being changed on the aircraft and how it relates to certification requirements and the impact on the safe operation of the aircraft. That's the difficulty with discussions on aircraft modifications.

There are no one size fits all rules. It depends on what you are doing. Too many people approach these problems like, well this worked for that one, we must do that for this one. NO, that does not work!

You go back to certification requirements and major vs minor questions for what is being changed. Also everyone's privileges are different depending on what operating certificates and rules they work under.

I've seen vendors accuse the airline I worked for of violating the FARs because the rules the vendor (and STC holder) was certified to operated under were more restrictive than the rules the 121 airline operated under in certain areas.

In that case a Part 21 parts manufacturer and STC holder could not just make a minor alteration to an STC (because it's FAA approved data). But we could make FAA minor changes to wiring on an airplane (where and how connections are made) because we were an aircraft operator.

The devil is in the details. Certification and installation requirements for any two modifications can be worlds apart depending on what system is being modified and how it impacts aircraft performance and operation.
 
There is no easy answer. It depends on the facts related to what is being changed on the aircraft and how it relates to certification requirements and the impact on the safe operation of the aircraft. That's the difficulty with discussions on aircraft modifications.

There are no one size fits all rules. It depends on what you are doing. Too many people approach these problems like, well this worked for that one, we must do that for this one. NO, that does not work!

You go back to certification requirements and major vs minor questions for what is being changed. Also everyone's privileges are different depending on what operating certificates and rules they work under.

I've seen vendors accuse the airline I worked for of violating the FARs because the rules the vendor (and STC holder) was certified to operated under were more restrictive than the rules the 121 airline operated under in certain areas.

In that case a Part 21 parts manufacturer and STC holder could not just make a minor alteration to an STC (because it's FAA approved data). But we could make FAA minor changes to wiring on an airplane (where and how connections are made) because we were an aircraft operator.

The devil is in the details. Certification and installation requirements for any two modifications can be worlds apart depending on what system is being modified and how it impacts aircraft performance and operation.

Exactly. How often does the airplane we are modifying exactly match the STC? Say the STC was initially installed on serial # 93 all the STC drawings are based on that airplane and we are modifying serial #375. Often times wiring and connectors on the STC prints doesn't even exist. If the connectors do exist, we may not be able to use the pin locations specified on the STC prints. This happens time and again with bulkhead feed-thrus.

Maybe STC says to install the box somewhere such as an avionics shelf in the baggage ceiling, but there is no available space.

What deviations can be called minor vs major? It gets muddy and why there is often more than one person making the call what data needs to be acquired and approved.

TCAS STC's come to mind. They are getting pretty muddy when one TCAS upgrade has multiple issues. Its a simple box swap for newer software right?

#1 Airplane manufacture SB, but the SB isn't approval to install it. Instead it says something like "These changes are approved under STC xxxx and is chargeable to the owner/operator"

#2 There is an AD against the TCAS and it says to modify it per the TCAS manufacturer SB #A1, but the TCAS manufacturer doesn't do A1 anymore. Instead they modify beyond that to a part number in the STC.

#3 The TCAS STC itself has a letter in it saying it is an AMOC for the AD and contains a pile of limitations in the AMOC letter.

You can't really make assumptions about anything. Everything is case by case. Without all applicable data to review, how can an informed decision be made?
 
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I don't know, but I'm sure 100 posts down the road we'll find out.

Wouldn't the first decision be, is it a major or a minor alteration? Isn't that the FIRST thing he needs to know?

The questions aren't that hard?
 
Wouldn't the first decision be, is it a major or a minor alteration? Isn't that the FIRST thing he needs to know?

The questions aren't that hard?

Many certificate holders aren't qualified to make that determination even though they have the authority.
 
Many certificate holders aren't qualified to make that determination even though they have the authority.

Most owners I know, that search thru salvage yards for parts, are not certificate holders.
 
Brian, Interesting example. I was cognizant engineer for TCAS and XPDR systems exclusively for about 10 years (across two airlines).
 
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