GA, is it dying a slow death?

John Baker

John Baker

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John Baker
AOPA has been on a quest to try and get more people interested in flying. I have no clue how it is going with that project, but it did get me to wondering why more people don't want to fly. I read somewhere that there are several million inactive pilots licenses and only about six hundred thousand active pilots. I've probably got the numbers all wrong but the ratio was about that.

Most people I ask claim they just do not have the time or the money. I've got a hunch it is more about the money.

Since I've been involved, GA just seems like an industry where too many people want their fair share of the pie, from the government on down. Steam gages that cost thousands, not including installation. Radios that have no more components than those sold at Radio Shack for a hundred or so dollars, costing 3-5 thousand dollars before installation,and so on.

I asked an avionics shop how come stuff is so expensive for airplanes after hearing the price of a couple of flip flop radios, used ones. He simply said that is what the market will bear.

It is like going into an art gallery and the least expensive thing is over a thousand dollars, most items over ten thousand dollars. Then you come across a nice picture you like and it's only three thousand dollars, so you think it is a good deal. Yet if you saw the same picture in a yard sale for twenty bucks, you would make an offer of ten, because you like it.

I guess my question is, why is GA so darned expensive to become a member of it?

John
 
John Baker said:
AOPA has been on a quest to try and get more people interested in flying. I have no clue how it is going with that project, but it did get me to wondering why more people don't want to fly. I read somewhere that there are several million inactive pilots licenses and only about six hundred thousand active pilots. I've probably got the numbers all wrong but the ratio was about that.

Most people I ask claim they just do not have the time or the money. I've got a hunch it is more about the money.

Since I've been involved, GA just seems like an industry where too many people want their fair share of the pie, from the government on down. Steam gages that cost thousands, not including installation. Radios that have no more components than those sold at Radio Shack for a hundred or so dollars, costing 3-5 thousand dollars before installation,and so on.

I asked an avionics shop how come stuff is so expensive for airplanes after hearing the price of a couple of flip flop radios, used ones. He simply said that is what the market will bear.

It is like going into an art gallery and the least expensive thing is over a thousand dollars, most items over ten thousand dollars. Then you come across a nice picture you like and it's only three thousand dollars, so you think it is a good deal. Yet if you saw the same picture in a yard sale for twenty bucks, you would make an offer of ten, because you like it.

I guess my question is, why is GA so darned expensive to become a member of it?

John
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Because its too damned hard to get a private certificate, there's not enough of us, and people are too elite to allow an easier way to flying.

That, and the people that own planes don't want to see the prices drop, because they'll lose their "investment."
 
SkyHog said:
Because its too damned hard to get a private certificate, there's not enough of us, and people are too elite to allow an easier way to flying.
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That's why Sport Pilot was supposed to come in where Recreational Pilot failed.

They are other factors like sposal approval ("I'll do when the kids are grown and out.")

And for the most part it's a no shortcut challenge. You have to do some math and reading and can't pass the tests and requirements by copying off the other guy's paper like what got some all the way through college.

SkyHog said:
That, and the people that own planes don't want to see the prices drop, because they'll lose their "investment."
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:fingerwag: Nick! Supply and demand and market forces shouldn't apply?

You know very well, when it comes to pricing of items like cars, houses, boats and planes, they're worth exactly what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept.

Not being able to own doesn't hold back most reasonable future pilots while you can rent and join clubs.
 
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Yes. We might well be the last generation that flies. Aircraft manufacturing is at best a cottage industry, and does not get the pricing benefit seen by other sorts of motor vehicles. My convertible is a relatively rare car, yet Toyota made almost as many of them as Cessna made 150s, one of its most successful aircraft. Everything associated with aircraft grows more expensive save the aircraft themselves. Moreover, they are highly delicate, and can easily leave the market with disuse.

Add to this the utterly toxic regulatory climate, not to mention the spiraling training costs as the environment becomes more complex. Then think about today's culture, with the 15 minute attention span and instant gratification. I will be very surprised if GA outlives me. A pity, because in some ways we are in aviation's golden age. Aircraft can do things they couldn't a generation before, and the avionics revolution is nothing short of breathtaking. A greater tragedy that few will experience these wonders.
 
I'll throw in my $0.02 on this.

I keep my plane at HEF, one of the busiest relievers in the DC area. Towered airport, yada, yada. There are two full-fledged FBOs on field, one (Dulles) catering more to the 100LL crowd, the other (Volo) being used more by the kerosene crowd.

I was planning a trip that would have entailed a 6 AM departure (well before either opens). Both O2 cylinders were empty. So I called first thing on Saturday AM to try and get them filled.

Guess what: neither shop has maintenance personnel available on Saturdays. Strictly workweek hours. Neither one knew of anyone within reasonable flying distance that could do O2 on a weekend.

The airport is 45+ minutes from my office, depending on traffic, so it's a real problem to get out there on a weekday for a charge of O2.

Worse, had there been a maintenance problem with the plane, it would entail several hours off of work to go out and deal with them. Can't get it fixed on Saturday.

I then went to take the plane up. It was VFR, but heavy haze and cloud bases below my cruise altitude of 7000 outbound and 6000 inbound. So I filed IFR. It took 30 minutes from "ready to taxi" to takeoff. There were 3 IFR planes ahead of me, and one inbound. FOr a while, Potomac was not accepting any requests for release. At least 2-3 VFR aircraft were held up due to the IFR release delays (due to blocked taxiways). (Plenty of VFR traffic in the pattern, though). I stopped at another airport where MX was not available.

Is GA dying a slow death? Youbetcha. And part of it is the unavailability of services on Saturdays or other times when those of us who work at desk jobs can come to the airport.

/rant off

(I know the answer is to get large O2 tanks to refill myself, but that's not practical right now).
 
It's a chicken and egg problem, to some extent at least. It's expensive because the market is so small. Economies of scale barely work. Imagine how expensive a Ford would be if they only sold 100/year of them. But because it is so expensive, the barrier to entry is high, and so few people even consider it.

Traditionally, this equation has changed when there was a significant advantage to one technology. The car, once again, is a good example. People had a good reason to buy a car. Unfortunately, since GA is mostly a convenience or hobby to most, not many people can justify the expense. Therefore, the chicken and egg problem won't be resolved.

That aside, there's also the technical barrier to entry. Most people wouldn't make good pilots unless we make flying about as easy as driving a car. Even then, there'd be plenty of bad pilots, and being a bad pilot comes with a much higher chance of getting you in serious trouble then being a bad driver.

I don't think GA is dying. It's just not going to get any cheaper, even if we want it to. The only hope is to establish economies of scale. If we can make flying as simple as driving, we could accomplish that. Sadly, that's quite a ways in the future; and it would probably make flying less fun for most of us.

-Felix
 
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wsuffa said:
Is GA dying a slow death? Youbetcha. And part of it is the unavailability of services on Saturdays or other times when those of us who work at desk jobs can come to the airport.

/rant off

(I know the answer is to get large O2 tanks to refill myself, but that's not practical right now).
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You should be on the other side and try to run an aviation business, I have.

The problem with most plane owners is since GA is their hobby they expect it to be the businesses hobby also.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You should be on the other side and try to run an aviation business, I have.

The problem with most plane owners is since GA is their hobby they expect it to be the businesses hobby also.
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Nope, I don't expect a place to lose money. I've started and run small businesses - I know that customer service is critical to keeping the customer satisfied. I suppose I could always go elsewhere and save money on fuel... but I don't. I suppose I could rent a tie-down instead of paying the FBO for hangar space. But I don't.

I do think some level of service on a weekend at ONE of the FBOs at a very busy GA airport is not out of line. After all: when are the customers most likely to be there or need your service? (Every other airport I've based at - smaller ones in other metro areas - had some service available until noon Saturday).

Folks, if we want GA to grow, we can't raise obstacles to that growth. While I wouldn't expect to get an engine overhaul (or other major maintenance) done on weekend hours, I don't think it's unreasonable to have some ability to get minor work done (O2 fills, etc. etc.), especially when one of the FBOs runs a rental fleet that's heavily used on weekends.

If it becomes uber inconvenient, then folks will spend their money elsewhere.
 
2 Reasons:
1. Without owning a pilots license is useless at least in respect to the utility promised.
2. Pilots are jerks- well maybe not jerks but not friendly, unless there is mutual appreciation to spread around. Don't believe me leave the AOPA hat and A2 in the car and walk around an unfamiliar airport.
Money and time are important but the above is the problem. Good luck getting some change.
 
John Baker said:
I guess my question is, why is GA so darned expensive to become a member of it?John
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Certainly the expense is part of it, way back when I learned, a new Piper Cherokee went for $17/hr., wet, including the instructor. Since then the whole aviation world has become more complex, restricted and yes-expensive. That is most likely a result of our society moving in the same way.

I do hope we are not the last generation to enjoy aviation in the manner we now do. Although it is harder, we still do have the ability to just fly for fun, no ATC, no flight plan, no restriction other than self imposed. But that still leaves the expense. Part of that I do believe is the attitude of the FAA. Back a-ways, the FAA was an advocate for aviation, helping it expand and grow, it has since evolved into a regulatory watchdog, more of an enforcer, no longer an advocate. Sadly, I do not expect this to change.

Gary
 
When was it ever easier to get a PPL?

Who is "too elite"?

How do people who own planes control the price?

How does that theory jive with the recent 50% or greater drop in price of the most expensive airplanes that are owned by the richest people?

Or the nosedive of almost the same amount after 9-11 that never recovered?






SkyHog said:
Because its too damned hard to get a private certificate, there's not enough of us, and people are too elite to allow an easier way to flying.

That, and the people that own planes don't want to see the prices drop, because they'll lose their "investment."
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Powered parachutes are the answer. 12 hours total to get a license. 10-12k to get your very own. Seems better these days.
 
wsuffa said:
I was planning a trip that would have entailed a 6 AM departure (well before either opens). Both O2 cylinders were empty. So I called first thing on Saturday AM to try and get them filled.

Guess what: neither shop has maintenance personnel available on Saturdays. Strictly workweek hours. Neither one knew of anyone within reasonable flying distance that could do O2 on a weekend.
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We were making the same rounds saturday. I hit atlantic and aeroways at ILG no luck, no maintenance folks working.
 
Where does the FBO get the weekend help? Pay some guy overtime to sit there all day to fill a couple of O2 tanks or air up a tire, and then have to listen to the airplane owner ***** about the price? Not me, bubba.

Regular customer whose business is important needs help on Saturday? or Sunday? or middle of the night? They all have my cell number. Everybody else? See you Monday.

Where was the airplane all week before the trip? If it was in the hangar, why not have it drug over to the shop for the top-off?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I office in a building with a maintenance facility and watch the show on a regular basis. If most airplane owners used the same planning techniques for their business that that they do for their airplanes, they would all be broke before the month is out.

wsuffa said:
Nope, I don't expect a place to lose money. I've started and run small businesses - I know that customer service is critical to keeping the customer satisfied. I suppose I could always go elsewhere and save money on fuel... but I don't. I suppose I could rent a tie-down instead of paying the FBO for hangar space. But I don't.

I do think some level of service on a weekend at ONE of the FBOs at a very busy GA airport is not out of line. After all: when are the customers most likely to be there or need your service? (Every other airport I've based at - smaller ones in other metro areas - had some service available until noon Saturday).

Folks, if we want GA to grow, we can't raise obstacles to that growth. While I wouldn't expect to get an engine overhaul (or other major maintenance) done on weekend hours, I don't think it's unreasonable to have some ability to get minor work done (O2 fills, etc. etc.), especially when one of the FBOs runs a rental fleet that's heavily used on weekends.

If it becomes uber inconvenient, then folks will spend their money elsewhere.
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ClimbnSink said:
2. Pilots are jerks- well maybe not jerks but not friendly, unless there is mutual appreciation to spread around. Don't believe me leave the AOPA hat and A2 in the car and walk around an unfamiliar airport.
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I would have to say that depends on where you live(East Coast, Mid-west or West Coast) I have had several people approach me at the airport just to ask questions and to check out the airplanes. I have also been the one stopping at airports in the mid west and have been welcomed with open arms.( before I was a pilot)
When I went to Maine to pick up my last airplane I found the welcome mate at a few airports was missing.
 
Dean said:
I would have to say that depends on where you live(East Coast, Mid-west or West Coast) I have had several people approach me at the airport just to ask questions and to check out the airplanes. I have also been the one stopping at airports in the mid west and have been welcomed with open arms.( before I was a pilot)
When I went to Maine to pick up my last airplane I found the welcome mate at a few airports was missing.
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I'm in the Northeast hopefully it is just us.:dunno:
 
John Baker said:
I guess my question is, why is GA so darned expensive to become a member of it?

John
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Certification and the liability that comes with it. If you want to fly at an affordable price, go experimental, thats what I had to do and I will probably stay with it. There are just as many capable and reliable experimentals as there are certified airplane, with limited FAA B.S.
 
wabower said:
Where does the FBO get the weekend help? Pay some guy overtime to sit there all day to fill a couple of O2 tanks or air up a tire, and then have to listen to the airplane owner ***** about the price? Not me, bubba.
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Schedule 'em the same way any other business that operates on weekends does. You think restaurants, gas stations, grocery stores, jewelry stores, etc. pay overtime to "just have someone sit around"?

Did I ***** about the price? Nope. Costs more to get my car serviced (and yes, I can get that done on Saturdays)... I say the FBO is not charging enought.

Regular customer whose business is important needs help on Saturday? or Sunday? or middle of the night? They all have my cell number. Everybody else? See you Monday.
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That's your right. Just don't complain when GA folks go elsewhere - or just stop flying because it's impossible too get the plane serviced.

Where was the airplane all week before the trip? If it was in the hangar, why not have it drug over to the shop for the top-off?
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That would require taking the keys to the airport. During the week when maintenance is working. Sorta defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Again, I'm not talking major stuff, I'm talking minor stuff like O2 fills, a landing light out, loose heat insulation, etc. For the record, I have a pretty good set of screws, common "owner maintenance" hardware, air compressor, batt charger, etc. in the hangar. Together with routine maintenance, it's not a huge issue. However, to get true utility out of a plane, it often means leaving before the shop opens and returning after it closes.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I office in a building with a maintenance facility and watch the show on a regular basis. If most airplane owners used the same planning techniques for their business that that they do for their airplanes, they would all be broke before the month is out.
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Pretty broad brush there. Some of us maintain the planes well for just because of this issue. Renters and club members are at the mercy of someone else. It doesn't take but one or two canceled trips because of a minor problem that can't be fixed "till monday" before the person controlling the purse strings (sometimes a spouse) says "no more money".
 
No question; GA is expensive! For those who complain about the cost of renting an airplane or receiving instruction at any level; sit down and look at the real costs to have the plane available, insured, maintained, hangared, & fueled. The FBO's margin is pretty slim!
 
Retail businesses whose big sales days are on the weekends aren't a valid comparison to aviation MX shops. Try the golf clubs (all are closed on Monday) or the Marina restaurants (open Wednesday through Sunday) or other specialty businesses. All of them have figured out when it's profitable to stay open, and that's when they are there.

wsuffa said:
Schedule 'em the same way any other business that operates on weekends does. You think restaurants, gas stations, grocery stores, jewelry stores, etc. pay overtime to "just have someone sit around"?

We didn't get that far. But most owners would have.
Did I ***** about the price? Nope. Costs more to get my car serviced (and yes, I can get that done on Saturdays)... I say the FBO is not charging enought.


If you think the availability of Saturday maintenance is the linchpin to the success of GA, we are reading different magazines.
That's your right. Just don't complain when GA folks go elsewhere - or just stop flying because it's impossible too get the plane serviced.


Why don't they have a key in their keybox? My shop has a key to my plane in their keybox and my hangar combo (airplane #) on their computer. Contingency planning.
That would require taking the keys to the airport. During the week when maintenance is working. Sorta defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Again, I'm not talking major stuff, I'm talking minor stuff like O2 fills, a landing light out, loose heat insulation, etc. For the record, I have a pretty good set of screws, common "owner maintenance" hardware, air compressor, batt charger, etc. in the hangar. Together with routine maintenance, it's not a huge issue. However, to get true utility out of a plane, it often means leaving before the shop opens and returning after it closes.

It's a numbers game like every other business. Many service businesses close earlier on weekends. Why?

Walmart closes their automotive centers much earlier than the rest of their departments. Want to return a battery at 9:00 p.m.? Sorry, come back tomorrow when they're open.

BTDT within the past 30 days. I pushed a big ladder out of the entry-way, put the bleeping battery on the bleeping counter in the bleeping automotive department along with the receipt and a note telling them I wasn't making any more trips to bleeping Walmart that week, and for them to just credit the charge to my VISA. Which reminds me that I'd better look at the statement to see if they did.

Pretty broad brush there. Some of us maintain the planes well for just because of this issue. Renters and club members are at the mercy of someone else. It doesn't take but one or two canceled trips because of a minor problem that can't be fixed "till monday" before the person controlling the purse strings (sometimes a spouse) says "no more money".
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wabower said:
Retail businesses whose big sales days are on the weekends aren't a valid comparison to aviation MX shops. Try the golf clubs (all are closed on Monday) or the Marina restaurants (open Wednesday through Sunday) or other specialty businesses. All of them have figured out when it's profitable to stay open, and that's when they are there.
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I rest my case. In each of those cases you brought up, the customer is there on weekends. I submit that a LARGE portion of the GA population flies on weekends.

As for why no key at the shop? Which shop should I choose? And (more importantly) which one will have the O2 when I need it? It's much more practical when there is only one shop on the field and you know the capabilities.

Yes, convenience is a big part of the equation. If we sell GA as "convenient" and we sell airplanes or partnerships for "convenience", then it needs to be convenient. Cost is a factor to many, but for business use of an aircraft (or when a hotel/beach house deposit is hanging in the balance) it really isn't nearly as big of a factor.
 
I don't know where you're flying, but KADS is GA-only, one of the biggest reliever airports in the DFW area. You can shoot a gun on the weekends without fear of hitting anyone, with the exception of about an hour on Saturday morning when you might pick off three or four lined up for breakfast takeoff. By 10 a. m. it's a ghost-town. Many other similar reports have been posted about other airports over the past couple of years.

And it's not about how much flying is done on the weekends, it's about how much MX business is generated. Wouldn't you think that if it was lucrative to be open on the weekends, somebody would have figured that out by now? I occasionally see a small shop open on weekends at some of the little airports, but many more are locked up tight.

wsuffa said:
I rest my case. In each of those cases you brought up, the customer is there on weekends. I submit that a LARGE portion of the GA population flies on weekends.

As for why no key at the shop? Which shop should I choose? And (more importantly) which one will have the O2 when I need it? It's much more practical when there is only one shop on the field and you know the capabilities.

Yes, convenience is a big part of the equation. If we sell GA as "convenient" and we sell airplanes or partnerships for "convenience", then it needs to be convenient. Cost is a factor to many, but for business use of an aircraft (or when a hotel/beach house deposit is hanging in the balance) it really isn't nearly as big of a factor.
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wabower said:
I don't know where you're flying, but KADS is GA-only, one of the biggest reliever airports in the DFW area. You can shoot a gun on the weekends without fear of hitting anyone, with the exception of about an hour on Saturday morning when you might pick off three or four lined up for breakfast takeoff. By 10 a. m. it's a ghost-town. Many other similar reports have been posted about other airports over the past couple of years.

And it's not about how much flying is done on the weekends, it's about how much MX business is generated. Wouldn't you think that if it was lucrative to be open on the weekends, somebody would have figured that out by now? I occasionally see a small shop open on weekends at some of the little airports, but many more are locked up tight.
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KHEF. And it's very busy on weekends (the DC SFRA has helped in that regard). Much busier than KSSF/Stinson where I was based when I was in SA. (Parallel runways at HEF and most Saturdays they're both heavily used - when I finally got my IFR release on Saturday there at least 8 planes waiting to take off on the two runways). AFAIK, HEF is the busiest reliever in the DC area owing to the closure of DCA to GA and the tight restrictions at the DC-3.

I think some of the other fields around Dallas are probably busier on weekends than ADS - do you know what the weekend traffic is like at Arlington or Grand Prarie (been quite a while since I've been there)?

I agree about whether the MX would be profitable. On that, I would think the amount of traffic might make it possible to have at least one MX person available, at least as much as on a lighter-trafficed weekday.
 
Dean said:
I would have to say that depends on where you live(East Coast, Mid-west or West Coast) I have had several people approach me at the airport just to ask questions and to check out the airplanes. I have also been the one stopping at airports in the mid west and have been welcomed with open arms.( before I was a pilot)
When I went to Maine to pick up my last airplane I found the welcome mate at a few airports was missing.
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I've got a somewhat unique perspective, having created and owned an aviation themed hotel in Iowa City, Iowa for the last seven years.

Pilots are NOT jerks. They are, without a doubt, the most friendly, outgoing, generous people on the planet. Their enthusiasm is infectious, and their joy in flying is without comparison.

That said, they're all broke, cuz aviation is extremely expensive. For anyone of regular means to fly nowadays with any regularity, they must be frugal. Thus, almost without exception, our fly-in guests demand the "cheapest room available". No surprise there, to those of us who are immersed in aviation -- but it sure flies in the face of the "wealthy pilot" that the media thinks populates our airports.

We chose to make pilots our "target market", before we converted an old hotel into the ultimate aviation destination, because we love aviation and we know that pilots are a cut above the rest of our society. (It also helps that we're all pilots!) We have never been ripped off by a private pilot, ever -- which is not something I can say about any other sub-set of our society. Sadly, we've watched GA diminish exponentially over the last seven years, thanks to economic, societal and regulatory factors, to the point where our drive-in guests now outnumber our fly-in guests by a 98-to-2 margin.

That said, I believe GA WILL bounce back -- if we can keep our elected officials from destroying our economy and our nation in the meantime. THAT is going to dictate the future of GA more than any other single factor.
 
I think I posted this on the wrong forum, probably should have been flight following.

What does the FAA charge to certify a new airplane design? Perhaps it's the certification costs of the plane and all thats stuck in or on it that makes things so expensive.

Heck, a new Warrior is a couple hundred thousand, and that's just a four banger trainer. My Warrior is 31 years old with nothing but steam gages and I can barely afford that.

I think aviation is heading in the direction of being for the wealthy only. That is unless government gets it's way and taxes the wealthy into the middle class. Then, I think aviation will be mostly government or government employees that can actually take part. I guess that will get rid of the riff raff that you see around airports now, people much like myself.

John
 
For my part I feel like I am spanning the most amazing part of General Aviation. At the same time as the Light Sport concept stands to revitalize stick and rudder flying we are seeing single engine airplanes with synthetic vision displays and real time weather datalink. Hopefully I will still be flying when all electric fuel cell planes zip around at 200mph and the liquid fueled serious equipment is jet powered. My only regret may be that I will not see an Oshkosh where the average EAA homebuilder nerd is discussing heat shield layups and where to get cheap surplus space suits. But who knows ...

The dog and I flew back from the cabin this weekend just at sunset. The altitude put us right at the tops of building cumulous clouds. It was bumpy as a cob but I couldn't bear to negotiate a different altitude -- the whole visual scene looked like some kind of opening credits for a movie. Seriously I never thought I would be able to do something like that. Its well worth the 5 grand a year or so and I am greatful to my circumstances and my family for the chance to do it.
 
Dunno about the other airports, they may have more little-plane traffic than we do, even though we have two big schools and a few clubs at ADS. I see more activity around the private strips like Aero Country, and a fair amount at Northwest Regional. That said, all the traffic counts and FBO numbers I've seen are still off by significant amounts, even though fuel prices in our area have returned to more reasonable levels.

Unfortunately, I think we're dinosaurs.

wsuffa said:
KHEF. And it's very busy on weekends (the DC SFRA has helped in that regard). Much busier than KSSF/Stinson where I was based when I was in SA. (Parallel runways at HEF and most Saturdays they're both heavily used - when I finally got my IFR release on Saturday there at least 8 planes waiting to take off on the two runways). AFAIK, HEF is the busiest reliever in the DC area owing to the closure of DCA to GA and the tight restrictions at the DC-3.

I think some of the other fields around Dallas are probably busier on weekends than ADS - do you know what the weekend traffic is like at Arlington or Grand Prarie (been quite a while since I've been there)?

I agree about whether the MX would be profitable. On that, I would think the amount of traffic might make it possible to have at least one MX person available, at least as much as on a lighter-trafficed weekday.
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John Baker said:
Heck, a new Warrior is a couple hundred thousand, and that's just a four banger trainer. My Warrior is 31 years old with nothing but steam gages and I can barely afford that. John
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Yes but I am not certain that the price of the airplane has more or less paced inflation with a scale factor for its increased capabilities? If the average salary in 1960 was 4500 dollars then was a person spending twice or three times their salary to get into that new Cherokee?

Like you I would be curious what the certification/regulatory burden is on the airplane as a percentage of the airframe but strategically I am not certain it wouldn't be spread over the industry anway if we let it roll out wild west style and the consumer was test flying the airplanes to a greater extent.
 
> What does the FAA charge to certify a new airplane design?

zero. There is no payment to the FAA for any certification work.
(other countries do charge for certification inspections - kind of a
neat racket... "No, sorry sir, your design isn't acceptable. $5,000
please. Better luck next time")

> Perhaps it's the certification costs of the plane and all thats stuck
> in or on it that makes things so expensive.

The purchase price of an airplane is such a small part of the total life cycle cost. It's the maintenance that is expensive. While my A&Ps don't charge much per hour, it takes a considerable number of hours to get stuff done.

In any case, the NRE for certification is certainly expensive, but that cost is paid to the engineers and testing. Don't forget the $$$$ for liability.
 
As a young auditor with a Big-8 accounting firm in the early 60's, I was assigned to head the field work for the independent financial audit at Beech. At the time I was making about $7,200/yr. New Cadillacs & Lincolns cost about $6k and Bonanza's were about $36k. How the hell could there be that much difference in price? Surely it was a huge rip-off by the aircraft people.

I was very excited to have the opportunity to personally get to the bottom of this obvious pricing scam and triumphantly report the results to my pilot buddies, within the limits of professional confidentiality inherent in the accounting field.

After spending about six weeks in every nook and cranny of the plant and accounting/finance departments, I concluded that it was a miracle they could sell them at any price. Building airplanes is the most tedious, labor-intensive process imaginable, with almost no automation (even as recently as 2007 in Kerrville) and and an incredible amount of hand work.

When we toured the Mooney plant, the guide for our group was the head of industrial engineering and QC. After watching them build the airplanes the same way it was being done 45 years ago, I asked him if they would ever automate or robotize any of the processes. He said no chance, the production rates would never justify the cost.

twdeckard said:
Yes but I am not certain that the price of the airplane has more or less paced inflation with a scale factor for its increased capabilities? If the average salary in 1960 was 4500 dollars then was a person spending twice or three times their salary to get into that new Cherokee?

Like you I would be curious what the certification/regulatory burden is on the airplane as a percentage of the airframe but strategically I am not certain it wouldn't be spread over the industry anway if we let it roll out wild west style and the consumer was test flying the airplanes to a greater extent.
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twdeckard said:
Yes but I am not certain that the price of the airplane has more or less paced inflation with a scale factor for its increased capabilities? If the average salary in 1960 was 4500 dollars then was a person spending twice or three times their salary to get into that new Cherokee?
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There are several online calculators to get the relative value of money. This page has a link to quite a few: http://projects.exeter.ac.uk/RDavies/arian/current/howmuch.html

According to the relative value of money calculator, $4500 in 1960 equals $32,000 in 2008.

The financial types on the board may correct this.
 
wabower said:
When we toured the Mooney plant, the guide for our group was the head of industrial engineering and QC. After watching them build the airplanes the same way it was being done 45 years ago, I asked him if they would ever automate or robotize any of the processes. He said no chance, the production rates would never justify the cost.
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How many man hours would you say goes into producing an airplane? Not counting engineering hours, just production.
 
One part you guys are missing about new aircraft production cost is the Product Liability Insurance each manufacture pays. It's staggering, but thanks to the United States and runaway lawsuits it's only increasing.
 
Among the factors that will doom aircraft and aviation to the boneyard of history is the fact that labor costs have risen dramatically in the United States, and aircraft are labor intensive. Add to that the litigious drift in our civil society, and aircraft manufacturers have enormous costs to cover their liability.
 
The last, or should I say only, boom in GA manufacturing came in the late 60's early 70's when returning GI's could learn to fly on the GI Bill's dime. There have been a couple of half-hearted industry attempts at GA revitalization, but they've all been advertising and promotional efforts to no result.
Make it cheap to learn to fly, they will come. So will demand for aircraft. Otherwise we'll continue to limp along.
 
From the view of the guy who turns the wrench the only thing cheap in aviation is the pilots.
 
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