GA, is it dying a slow death?

flyingcheesehead said:
I think the problem isn't necessarily pilots, but FBO's. It seems that the main reason people get into the FBO business is that they like flying. They may be great pilots, but they often absolutely suck at customer service. I think AOPA would do well to spend some bucks doing some business consulting for small-airport FBO's to make them more welcoming to non-pilots.
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FBO's operate on very slim margins. If you had a choice to invest your money into a burger franchise or an FBO you'd do better selling burgers. Having a business where the "customer" flies in, parks, drinks the free coffee and eats the free popcorn, then wants to use the free "crew car" to run into town for lunch, then come back (without putting any gas in) go out and jump in the plane and leave.

Then you have the owners that want their tires aired up, windows cleaned and airplane towed to the hangar and put away after they're done flying. And for that they bought 10 gallons of AvGas for which the FBO made about $5 and when you subtract out expenses it cost them $5.

I ran an aviation business and there is no way in hell I would ever do it again, especially in this day and age.

Customer service varies widely around the country with different FBO's.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
FBO's operate on very slim margins. If you had a choice to invest your money into a burger franchise or an FBO you'd do better selling burgers. Having a business where the "customer" flies in, parks, drinks the free coffee and eats the free popcorn, then wants to use the free "crew car" to run into town for lunch, then come back (without putting any gas in) go out and jump in the plane and leave.

Then you have the owners that want their tires aired up, windows cleaned and airplane towed to the hangar and put away after they're done flying. And for that they bought 10 gallons of AvGas for which the FBO made about $5 and when you subtract out expenses it cost them $5.

I ran an aviation business and there is no way in hell I would ever do it again, especially in this day and age.

Customer service varies widely around the country with different FBO's.
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I've often wondered how they could possibly stay in business, for the very reasons you describe.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I've often wondered how they could possibly stay in business, for the very reasons you describe.
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Sorta like the old joke about the kid driving the Lav truck at the airport. He's at the gate draining a 737's lav when the hose pops off and he gets drenched with blue fluid.

Another ramp attendadnt runs over and says "That's disgusting!! Why do you want this job? If I were you I would find something else!" and the kid responds "What? and get out of aviation?"
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Sorta like the old joke about the kid driving the Lav truck at the airport. He's at the gate draining a 737's lav when the hose pops off and he gets drenched with blue fluid.

Another ramp attendadnt runs over and says "That's disgusting!! Why do you want this job? If I were you I would find something else!" and the kid responds "What? and get out of aviation?"
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That's great. Or, if you want to have an aviation business worth 10 million dollars, start with 100 million the year before.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Having a business where the "customer" flies in, parks, drinks the free coffee and eats the free popcorn, then wants to use the free "crew car" to run into town for lunch, then come back (without putting any gas in) go out and jump in the plane and leave.

Then you have the owners that want their tires aired up, windows cleaned and airplane towed to the hangar and put away after they're done flying. And for that they bought 10 gallons of AvGas for which the FBO made about $5 and when you subtract out expenses it cost them $5.
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As the old saying goes, if you want to attract a-holes, put up a windsock.
 
I've been watching a local MX biz for some time, trying to figure out how they keep the doors open. Found out yesterday it's due to monthly cash infusion of $50/mo by owner. How much of that fun could a guy stand to have?

TangoWhiskey said:
I've often wondered how they could possibly stay in business, for the very reasons you describe.
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wabower said:
I've been watching a local MX biz for some time, trying to figure out how they keep the doors open. Found out yesterday it's due to monthly cash infusion of $50/mo by owner. How much of that fun could a guy stand to have?
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Man, one more oil change and he might be in the black...
 
wabower said:
:lol: Amazing how simply leaving out one letter (a K after the 50) can change a post.
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Oh my; he's putting in 50,000$US per month to keep the operation afloat?!?!?!
:skeptical:


p.s.--A good tax attorney should be able to get him 501(c)3 status, because he's quite likely running a charity.
 
I think the novelty may be wearing off.

TangoWhiskey said:
Oh my; he's putting in 50,000$US per month to keep the operation afloat?!?!?!
:skeptical:


p.s.--A good tax attorney should be able to get him 501(c)3 status, because he's quite likely running a charity.
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Greetings !
I haven't flown in over two years and flying was a boyhood dream come true. Personally, it came to money. When the flight school went glass and refurbished their fleet and fuel prices went to over $6/gal I got priced out.

To fly the new G1000s one had to be checked out in them, no less than 5hrs VFR and then if you wanted to fly IFR there was an additional check out. The school eventually phased out every steam-gauged plane including the high performance ones. They did add a 182 G1000, but again, 2 check-outs to fly it. That's 4 check-outs, and usually 5-10hrs in type before one can fly with pax. The last time I flew it was about $180/hr in 172S with an instructor. That's a whole lot of money to me.

Add in the care and feeding of pilot currency and supplies (charts, subscriptions to educational materials) plus the time to do it all. I just put it all on hold. One of the most difficult things for me to do was to cancel my Jeppesen IFR subscription, not because they make it difficult but because I knew that it meant the dream was over.

The local economy is ugly. The high tech industry here took a beating and still is. I have friends whom have been out of work for over a year. I'd hate to know how things are at the FBOs and the flight school.

I had wrongly thought that the costs would stabilize over time, but they just continued to climb until they were out of reach. I've been lucky to have met the folks I have in aviation. I still consider this board to be one of my favorite ePlaces. I don't post often, heck what would I post about ?

In general, I think GA is getting smaller. The regulation and the new level of enforcement due to paranoia deters new blood and drives out those teetering on the edge. Flying from KRDU to KPOU involves the formerly known as ADIZ and now the circus around NYC. Both have never been a picnic, but now I'm sure it's no fun at all. Misrepresenting the facts is nothing new in the media. Congress didn't do us any favors with their public spanking of CEOs with planes. I was all for the spanking, but leave the planes out of it. Huge black-eye for the industry. I'm wondering if we'll see a return to a time when the manufacturers stop building for a while. When user-fees become widespread, congress will have fulfilled their vision... planes are for airlines and the very rich. I truly think that because of the recent Hudson River accident and the uninformed fear, GA will be legislated into near extinction. That will make the airlines happy because once again they will own the skies. TSA/DHS will be happy, because they understand big planes. Congress will be happy because they have tightened their control over the populace. No need to visit Europe, it's coming to you instead.

I started to study for my CFI just so I could fly a little, but the job market here is dismal. Established CFIs are finding it very difficult to keep students as well as find new ones. Why bother?!? The teaching industry just doesn't pay well enough to entice the youth in mass. There will always be the ones born with aviation in their blood, or have family in it, but I just don't see a lot of kids around here wanting to start as a CFI. Too much work and too little pay. Aviation survives on it's romance. Frankly, society is killing romance.

My other hobbies have taken a hit as well. Scuba, traveling is just expensive and horribly inconvenient with 60# of gear per person. I still ride my motorcycle, but mostly because it gets 52 mpg. Of all my many hobbies, I miss flying the most. I hope that I return to the skies someday. I hope I get to own one. But for now, I lurk here infrequently as to not torture myself with what I cannot have.

Tennyson had it wrong:
"Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all"

I'd be happier if the dream was still just a dream, because dreams are hope.
 
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jdwatson said:
Greetings !
I haven't flown in over two years and flying was a boyhood dream come true. Personally, it came to money. When the flight school went glass and refurbished their fleet and fuel prices went to over $6/gal I got priced out.

To fly the new G1000s one had to be checked out in them, no less than 5hrs VFR and then if you wanted to fly IFR there was an additional check out. The school eventually phased out every steam-gauged plane including the high performance ones. They did add a 182 G1000, but again, 2 check-outs to fly it. That's 4 check-outs, and usually 5-10hrs in type before one can fly with pax. The last time I flew it was about $180/hr in 172S with an instructor. That's a whole lot of money to me.

Add in the care and feeding of pilot currency and supplies (charts, subscriptions to educational materials) plus the time to do it all. I just put it all on hold. One of the most difficult things for me to do was to cancel my Jeppesen IFR subscription, not because they make it difficult but because I knew that it meant the dream was over.

The local economy is ugly. The high tech industry here took a beating and still is. I have friends whom have been out of work for over a year. I'd hate to know how things are at the FBOs and the flight school.

I had wrongly thought that the costs would stabilize over time, but they just continued to climb until they were out of reach. I've been lucky to have met the folks I have in aviation. I still consider this board to be one of my favorite ePlaces. I don't post often, heck what would I post about ?

In general, I think GA is getting smaller. The regulation and the new level of enforcement due to paranoia deters new blood and drives out those teetering on the edge. Flying from KRDU to KPOU involves the formerly known as ADIZ and now the circus around NYC. Both have never been a picnic, but now I'm sure it's no fun at all. Misrepresenting the facts is nothing new in the media. Congress didn't do us any favors with their public spanking of CEOs with planes. I was all for the spanking, but leave the planes out of it. Huge black-eye for the industry. I'm wondering if we'll see a return to a time when the manufacturers stop building for a while. When user-fees become widespread, congress will have fulfilled their vision... planes are for airlines and the very rich. I truly think that because of the recent Hudson River accident and the uninformed fear, GA will be legislated into near extinction. That will make the airlines happy because once again they will own the skies. TSA/DHS will be happy, because they understand big planes. Congress will be happy because they have tightened their control over the populace. No need to visit Europe, it's coming to you instead.

I started to study for my CFI just so I could maybe fly, but the job market here is dismal. Established CFIs are finding it very difficult to keep students as well as find new ones. Why bother?!? The teaching industry just doesn't pay well enough to entice the youth in mass. There will always be the ones born with aviation in their blood, or have family in it, but I just don't see a lot of kids around here wanting to start as a CFI. Too much work and too little pay. Aviation survives on it's romance. Frankly, society is killing romance.

My other hobbies have taken a hit as well. Scuba, traveling is just expensive and horribly inconvenient with 60# of gear per person. I still ride my motorcycle, but mostly because it gets 52 mpg. Of all my many hobbies, I miss flying the most. I hope that I return to the skies someday. I hope I get to own one. But for now, I lurk here infrequently as to not torture myself with what I cannot have.

Tennyson had it wrong:
"Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all"

I'd be happier if the dream was still just a dream, because dreams are hope.
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If I didn't own a plane, I'd be right there with you....

"There but for the grace of God...."
 
wsuffa said:
If I didn't own a plane, I'd be right there with you....

"There but for the grace of God...."
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If we can re-start our personal economy, my Bride keeps saying we'll get a plane of our own. I just hope it's not like horses, in that the purchase is the cheapest thing you do. I do understand that the overall cost might be more, but I have to believe that I can run a 182RG less expensively than $180/hr. Perhaps that's just another dream ! :D
 
jdwatson said:
I just hope it's not like horses, in that the purchase is the cheapest thing you do. I do understand that the overall cost might be more, but I have to believe that I can run a 182RG less expensively than $180/hr. Perhaps that's just another dream ! :D
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I think flying and horses are similar in how they hit the wallet.

If you're not trying to keep up, you can fly very economically.

People thought we were "rich" since we owned horses. They were rather shocked to learn that in teh grass-growing months, horses were less expensive than dogs.

But if you have to have a hand-stitched saddle, a stable-hand have your horse tacked up for you before you arrive, and all the supplements and grooming aids known to man, you'll be broke, fast.

The CFI has helped my personal flying economy greatly -- people want me to fly with or for them.
 
It's a dream. My Cherokee is running about $100/hour. It would be less if I didn't hangar it, but I want it to stay nice. It would be less/hour if I flew more, but I fly when I fly. Aviation is expensive. To make it less so buy a slow airplane or an experimental. It will never be cheap renting. It will never be cheap flying, but at least it can be had mollified to some degree. With luck something will turn the economy around, things will get better, and we can all fly more.
 
dmccormack said:
I think flying and horses are similar in how they hit the wallet.

If you're not trying to keep up, you can fly very economically.

People thought we were "rich" since we owned horses. They were rather shocked to learn that in teh grass-growing months, horses were less expensive than dogs.

But if you have to have a hand-stitched saddle, a stable-hand have your horse tacked up for you before you arrive, and all the supplements and grooming aids known to man, you'll be broke, fast.

The CFI has helped my personal flying economy greatly -- people want me to fly with or for them.
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My horse was really cheap to keep, apples, $6 a sack creep feed, grass and hay. I had a $140 Billy Cook barrel saddle that I bought at the sale barn. I prob ably didn't spend more than $100 a year on that horse. Now the exwife and ranch that came with him, that's another story....
 
When we get back on our feet, $100/hr would be do-able so there *is* hope ! I'm just looking for a stable IFR platform, probably a Cessna just because that's all I've flown. In my mind, start with an older 182 and rebuild the panel a little at a time. I've seen some with decent interiors and paint. Add a 430W, and migrate to Aspen or Garmin replacement for the older gauges as cash comes around. I flew a 172RG for my commercial and I really grew to love that little plane. Flying that made me want a 182RG, even more so when one of our own here on PoA took me up in his 182RG.

I've got a Bernese Mtn Dog that seems to be as costly as a horse. We don't have any tack for him, but he's ride-able for some. ;-)
 
jdwatson said:
When we get back on our feet, $100/hr would be do-able so there *is* hope ! I'm just looking for a stable IFR platform, probably a Cessna just because that's all I've flown. In my mind, start with an older 182 and rebuild the panel a little at a time. I've seen some with decent interiors and paint. Add a 430W, and migrate to Aspen or Garmin replacement for the older gauges as cash comes around. I flew a 172RG for my commercial and I really grew to love that little plane. Flying that made me want a 182RG, even more so when one of our own here on PoA took me up in his 182RG.

I've got a Bernese Mtn Dog that seems to be as costly as a horse. We don't have any tack for him, but he's ride-able for some. ;-)
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Why not find a nice partnership to buy into? Divvying up those annuals and fixed costs 4 ways makes it pretty affordable. Even better if the a couple of the guys are older and like to say they own an airplane, but don't fly much. As for horses, I plead the fifth. Or is it pass me the fifth.
Either way.
 
jdwatson said:
If we can re-start our personal economy, my Bride keeps saying we'll get a plane of our own. I just hope it's not like horses, in that the purchase is the cheapest thing you do. I do understand that the overall cost might be more, but I have to believe that I can run a 182RG less expensively than $180/hr. Perhaps that's just another dream ! :D
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It's like horses :raspberry:

But don't let that stop you :ihih:
 
Everybody gets to decide how they keep score regarding costs. I count it all, and have to fly more than 200 hours per year to get my hourly cost for a Cessna 180 down to that number. If you only count part of it, you can make it anything you want (or maybe at least a number she will believe.)

jdwatson said:
If we can re-start our personal economy, my Bride keeps saying we'll get a plane of our own. I just hope it's not like horses, in that the purchase is the cheapest thing you do. I do understand that the overall cost might be more, but I have to believe that I can run a 182RG less expensively than $180/hr. Perhaps that's just another dream ! :D
Click to expand...
 
When the time is right, I'll be entertaining all these ideas. For now, I'll get comfy on the sidelines and live vicariously through y'all.
 
Its not completly dying but the cost is an issue. Im 17 and like most here flyings been a dream. But its not very cheap to get into. Embry-Riddle runs a satellite campus type deal at our high school and they offered the private pilot ground school portion with the school board paying for the exam and class so free for us. Many in the class of 20+ didnt take advantage because the instructor only signed off 4 of us to take the actual written at the end. The local dedalian chapter decided to take part in the CFIP program that pays for 2 students in the are up through the solo. Thats what im on now, the instructor says im on track to solo at about 12-14 hours but we may hold off becasue the dedalians are paying a max of 20 hours so im obviously going to log as many hours as i can for free.

Just thought id share that there are some of us youngins getting into GA we just also have to find the means to get it done.
 
wsuffa said:
Schedule 'em the same way any other business that operates on weekends does. You think restaurants, gas stations, grocery stores, jewelry stores, etc. pay overtime to "just have someone sit around"?

Did I ***** about the price? Nope. Costs more to get my car serviced (and yes, I can get that done on Saturdays)... I say the FBO is not charging enought.
If you are willing to pay more and possibly travel to a nearby regional airport, the service is available to you.
As for Mom & Pop FBOs, don't blame the small FBO owner for not wanting to work weekends, or pay an A&P to hang around so, or at least a $12hr competent employee, preferably a bright kid (do you have to be 18 to handle O2 in commerce anywhere?) that you'll bribe into the job with flying time, the one they just can't find..., and they can't, so if you're a mechanically and technically minded kid, SPEAK UP! Walk up to the owner of the FBO and say "You need someone that can provide weekend servicing ability, I want to be the person to provide that service." believe it or not, operations need you. BTW, it's not a resturant, trades don't work like that. That's why you learn a trade so you don't have to put up with the conditions of the Food Service Industry. When I ork a trade on a weekend, I'm minimally time and a half. Again, a bright inclined kid would be the best thing at a lower pay with flight instruction.
Quote:
Regular customer whose business is important needs help on Saturday? or Sunday? or middle of the night? They all have my cell number. Everybody else? See you Monday.
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That's your right. Just don't complain when GA folks go elsewhere - or just stop flying because it's impossible too get the plane serviced.



That would require taking the keys to the airport. During the week when maintenance is working. Sorta defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Dude, seriously, why doesn't you local shop, all of them if you trust them, just have a key to your hangar? Most operations take the responsibility seriously. That way when you park the plane low on O2, you call them up the next day, or leave a message right then, and say "I'm flying again next Wednesday at 16:00 could you please fill the O2 for me" or just "Could you top my O2 ASAP? Thanks" and it will be done, no worries. I used to do that all the time. "Go get that plane, go drag the O2 cart to..." and it gets worked into the regular schedule and the service can be provided at a reasonable rate. You could also personally go into the O2 servicing business. To do it efficiently, you need to spend about $3500 (if you can find used, $7000 if you can't) on an O2 ready Haskell pump and a few hundred on a medium sized compressor. I'd get a gasoline powered contractors type compressor with a Honda engine from a pawn shop. Then you can provide that service and charge whatever you feel is fair, balanced against what the market will bear.

Again, I'm not talking major stuff, I'm talking minor stuff like O2 fills, a landing light out, loose heat insulation, etc. For the record, I have a pretty good set of screws, common "owner maintenance" hardware, air compressor, batt charger, etc. in the hangar. Together with routine maintenance, it's not a huge issue. However, to get true utility out of a plane, it often means leaving before the shop opens and returning after it closes.



Pretty broad brush there. Some of us maintain the planes well for just because of this issue. Renters and club members are at the mercy of someone else. It doesn't take but one or two canceled trips because of a minor problem that can't be fixed "till monday" before the person controlling the purse strings (sometimes a spouse) says "no more money".
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Guess what, you, an owner, who doesn't do his own servicing much less mechanical work, is at the mercy of someone else as well, as you just found out, and in some ways, you are effected to an even greater degree.

If Hertz rented one way high performance XC airplanes for $400 hr or less, I'd use it, I'd use it even more and have clients who would use it at $300hr. If Textron or Cirrus got into the game I bet it could be a workable deal.

Everybody is always "How do we get more people into GA" and "All these licenses and only a handful of active pilots...what can be done...?" Well, if a quality one way fleet of aircraft were available, you'd probably double active GA. The best manufacturing gig there is is when you have another business that creates the market and pays for your product and makes a profit as well. The margin per is smaller (or can be adjusted to advantage) but the volume goes up and you get to depreciate the new asset. The one subject that always comes up is "Relocations", the answer is the system can be subsidized by using them for flight training. It's an all around winner. The renter and the student/timebuilder split the cost of the relocation. This also builds in your future client base. I see Cirrus and Textron to be in a position where they could price it low enough make it work. There are just too many layers of profit involved as it is. The business model of GA has to change is what has to happen to keep GA from dying the rest of the way to "Enthusiasts Only" flying local in LSAs and the experimental crowd. Manufacturers need to go "value added" and need to do it efficiently, but it can be done. They already have the infrastructure in place to keep the ramp up costs to a minimum. They would have made $3500-$6k off of me in the last couple of weeks. PT-91 business use could grow as well Pt 135 if they wanted to bother.
 
JD

Someday cmon back to KPOU...I did the plunge into ownership, as you all know, and the only way I can afford the plane is through the leaseback to my flight school. I get $ back to the LLC whenever she flies, and although I get billed for my own flight time for my lessons, they also count toward the payback on the lease agreement. Cuts the costs to me for the plane down to less than $50.00/hr. But man, those 100 hrs MX come awful quickly!
 
Like everything else in aviation, this has been studied and tried numerous times. It doesn't work at any number that pilots are willing to pay. At $1,200/hr, + a drop charge equal to cost of getting it back home, maybe.

Henning said:
If Hertz rented one way high performance XC airplanes for $400 hr or less, I'd use it, I'd use it even more and have clients who would use it at $300hr. If Textron or Cirrus got into the game I bet it could be a workable deal.

Everybody is always "How do we get more people into GA" and "All these licenses and only a handful of active pilots...what can be done...?" Well, if a quality one way fleet of aircraft were available, you'd probably double active GA. The best manufacturing gig there is is when you have another business that creates the market and pays for your product and makes a profit as well. The margin per is smaller (or can be adjusted to advantage) but the volume goes up and you get to depreciate the new asset. The one subject that always comes up is "Relocations", the answer is the system can be subsidized by using them for flight training. It's an all around winner. The renter and the student/timebuilder split the cost of the relocation. This also builds in your future client base. I see Cirrus and Textron to be in a position where they could price it low enough make it work. There are just too many layers of profit involved as it is. The business model of GA has to change is what has to happen to keep GA from dying the rest of the way to "Enthusiasts Only" flying local in LSAs and the experimental crowd. Manufacturers need to go "value added" and need to do it efficiently, but it can be done. They already have the infrastructure in place to keep the ramp up costs to a minimum. They would have made $3500-$6k off of me in the last couple of weeks. PT-91 business use could grow as well Pt 135 if they wanted to bother.
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Part of the problem for me is "last mile". FLying to a GA airport is great, but some are a real pain to get a car to go to final destination.
 
wabower said:
Like everything else in aviation, this has been studied and tried numerous times. It doesn't work at any number that pilots are willing to pay. At $1,200/hr, + a drop charge equal to cost of getting it back home, maybe.
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That's just it, nobody who has been in a position to make it work has ever tried. Those numbers will never fly, but if Cirrus just started stocking SR20s and 22s around the country and built a fleet of 1200-1500 planes that could be rented one way at $175 for the 20 and $250 for the 22, they'd be able to make it work, or Textron with 182s and 206s. The best model for yachts is the same, build it, buy it from yourself, operate it for the first 3-5 years in rental where you can deduct the depreciation. They both have the country well covered in Service Centers already so they get to support their own aircraft, and the factory can do that substantially cheaper than a 3rd party operator. It's never been tried with deep enough pockets. If we want to take GA to a level beyond where it is, it will require a manufacturer to step and fill the gap...either that or the gravity control drive. Without one of the two to increase the practicality, GA will only slowly decline until it becomes just an enthusiast sport.

I'd LOVE to see Beechcraft step in with a 36TN Bo and a 58 Baron, preferably a P Baron! Or better yet, a Duke. I'd pay 750 an hour to fly a Duke. That's a balsy plane, lots of people will fly it if they can rent it, but Beechcraft/Raytheon will never step up to the plate for any of that I don't think.

Cirrus is the only company with the operational enthusiasm within the upper corporate structure and the willingness to go on a limb to sell airplanes. "Wanna sell more planes? Sell em to yourself and put them to work. By making on more levels, you can reduce the level of profit required at each by controlling costs but making it up in volume. I'd bet they could even pull leasebacks from current owners and enroll them in the program. It can be done at a profit at considerably less than the number you suggest, you just have to run a very tight ship and market it well. It will require dedicated deep pockets to do it, but it can be made to work.
 
There's still the economies of scale problem. How many cars a day does Avis rent in order to get down to $30/day? With assets that cost 20x less than a new SR22? A company like the one y'all talk about could rent maybe 1/10000 of the volume that Avis rents. Add insurance, and we're back to incredibly high prices.

Even if you could solve that somehow, there's also the technical expertise/insurability issue. I guess this might work for your basic 172 since everybody sort of knows how to fly one. It will not work for more advanced planes that require specific training.

It's really a loosing proposition, sadly enough :(
 
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Anthony said:
I pay less for my airplane insurance than I do my car insurance.
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Me, too. But I have 3 cars at $500/year per....but I have liabilty only on the cars with about the same dollar coverage and an umbrella liabilty policy.
 
Unfortunately, selling to the market provides a top-line profit number that you can book and show the analysts. Selling to yourself creates a stream that might over time produce an equivalent revenue number, but with a significant risk that it wont.
But either way, they can't afford to wait for it. It involves a big risk (and big cajones by managment). Ain't gonna happen.

qquote=Henning;482531]That's just it, nobody who has been in a position to make it work has ever tried. Those numbers will never fly, but if Cirrus just started stocking SR20s and 22s around the country and built a fleet of 1200-1500 planes that could be rented one way at $175 for the 20 and $250 for the 22, they'd be able to make it work, or Textron with 182s and 206s. The best model for yachts is the same, build it, buy it from yourself, operate it for the first 3-5 years in rental where you can deduct the depreciation. They both have the country well covered in Service Centers already so they get to support their own aircraft, and the factory can do that substantially cheaper than a 3rd party operator. It's never been tried with deep enough pockets. If we want to take GA to a level beyond where it is, it will require a manufacturer to step and fill the gap...either that or the gravity control drive. Without one of the two to increase the practicality, GA will only slowly decline until it becomes just an enthusiast sport.

I'd LOVE to see Beechcraft step in with a 36TN Bo and a 58 Baron, preferably a P Baron! Or better yet, a Duke. I'd pay 750 an hour to fly a Duke. That's a balsy plane, lots of people will fly it if they can rent it, but Beechcraft/Raytheon will never step up to the plate for any of that I don't think.

Cirrus is the only company with the operational enthusiasm within the upper corporate structure and the willingness to go on a limb to sell airplanes. "Wanna sell more planes? Sell em to yourself and put them to work. By making on more levels, you can reduce the level of profit required at each by controlling costs but making it up in volume. I'd bet they could even pull leasebacks from current owners and enroll them in the program. It can be done at a profit at considerably less than the number you suggest, you just have to run a very tight ship and market it well. It will require dedicated deep pockets to do it, but it can be made to work.[/quote]
 
DutchessFlier said:
JD

Someday cmon back to KPOU...I did the plunge into ownership, as you all know, and the only way I can afford the plane is through the leaseback to my flight school. I get $ back to the LLC whenever she flies, and although I get billed for my own flight time for my lessons, they also count toward the payback on the lease agreement. Cuts the costs to me for the plane down to less than $50.00/hr. But man, those 100 hrs MX come awful quickly!
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Hey! The next time I'm up there visiting, I'll look you up. I like KPOU. I remember sitting at the picnic table watching planes take-off and land. That was before the chain-link fence was put up.
 
jdwatson said:
Hey! The next time I'm up there visiting, I'll look you up. I like KPOU. I remember sitting at the picnic table watching planes take-off and land. That was before the chain-link fence was put up.
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POU is where I took my first flight lesson. The CFI got chewed out by the tower for doing a 180 on the runway instead of proceeding to the next taxiway exit.

Nice airport, nice area 'round there.
 
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