"GA beats the airlines"

bikert

bikert

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bikert
We often see that claim that GA can beat the airlines. Heck, I say that to myself all the time.

So I just made a little spreadsheet to play around with it. These are my assumptions:

al_tas = Airlines true air speed
ga_tas = GA true air speed
al_initial_delay (mins) = Total time spent getting to airport, checking in, waiting, before wheels up
al_final_delay (mins) = Total time spent from wheels down to getting to ground transportation.
ga_initial_delay = Total time getting to your GA plane, starting up, taxiing, before wheels up
ga_final_delay = Total time from wheels down to getting to ground transportation
distance = breakeven distance. Anything more than this it is better to take the airlines. Less than this, better to fly yourself.

Time equation:

distance/al_tas+al_initial_delay/60+al_final_delay/60 = distance/ga_tas+ga_initial_delay/60+ga_final_delay/60


Therefore:

distance =(ga_initial_delay/60+ga_final_delay/60-al_initial_delay/60-al_final_delay/60)/(1/al_tas-1/ga_tas)

Assuming I'm flying from two places serviced by the airlines, here are some realistic numbers for me:

al_tas 460
ga_tas 200
al_initial_delay 90 minutes
al_final_delay 30 minutes
ga_initial_delay 15 minutes
ga_final_delay 10 minutes

For these parameters my break even distance is 560 nm. Sounds about right. Or maybe I should stop over analyzing and trying to find an excuse to fly and just fly! :D
 
Yep, I'd say 500nm is the sweet spot in terms of speed and cost. Being based in KC, I can fly my family to Dallas, Minneapolis, Denver, or Chicago just as fast and cheaper in a GA aircraft than I can in a 737. It's also the choice between a 9-12 hour drive or a 4 hour flight.
 
As I am not in a hub city and my destination is rarely a hub city, door to door I usually win time wise with GA when 1000nm or less.
 
I definitely didn't do all that math when I figured it out a while ago. But, considering time spent going through TSA checkpoints, layovers, delays, travel to/from the airport, etc GA was the way to do for convenience, less stress, more fun, etc.

Tried to get my employer to let me fly to IL from FL for a conference..no go. Had to ride the spam can in the sky and it sucked..
 
I suppose that might be valid if GA went to the same airports, but it doesn't work that way.

It's a LLOOONNGGG drive from LAX or Burbank to Palmdale in LA traffic. It's a short drive from Fox.
 
EdFred said:
As I am not in a hub city and my destination is rarely a hub city, door to door I usually win time wise with GA when 1000nm or less.
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Same deal here. Plus the convenience of no check in lines, no TSA, bring anything I want - including my dog and a full size bottle of shampoo, no smelly obese person next to me, on time 99% of the time, no terrorists...

I pretty much only fly GA domestically.
 
When I was practicing in Denver I would often fly myself to a hearing or meeting on the other side of the state. I always beat the airlines. Starting from home and using the initial_delay variables, I would be at my destination, perhaps even the hotel, before the airline even left the ground.
 
I'd rather spend an extra 3 or 4 hours of extra total travel time in my airplane than have to deal with the TSA, crowds, lines, and all the other crap.
 
bikert said:
ga_initial_delay 15 minutes
ga_final_delay 10 minutes

For these parameters my break even distance is 560 nm. Sounds about right. Or maybe I should stop over analyzing and trying to find an excuse to fly and just fly! :D
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Fifteen minutes from your house to wheels up? Do you live at the airport?
 
Being retired ,it's about the cost as opposed to the time. Depends how soon you book the flight ,on what the fare is. Last minute GA can be cost effective.
 
bikert said:
ga_initial_delay = Total time getting to your GA plane, starting up, taxiing, before wheels up

ga_initial_delay 15 minutes
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I think this assumption might be off. I have never got to the airport and then been in the air within 15 minutes.

But in general, I like this idea. I ran these numbers for a flight I am planning in a few months from KCHD to KSLC. I figure it won't be that much slower in the Archer than if we took a Delta flight.
 
EdFred said:
As I am not in a hub city and my destination is rarely a hub city, door to door I usually win time wise with GA when 1000nm or less.
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This is exactly the case for me. I live in a sleepy Class C that is off the beaten path. Over 90% of the places I go, of have to connect in a hub city via airlines and flight times can be a pain.

I just flew up to Maine for a funeral. 3hrs in the Baron. Most airline flights were 5-6 hours of travel time not including all the TSA lines/checking in.
 
The Toilet Safety Administration! haha if you haven't watched it look up TSA SouthPark on YouTube...hilarious (it is a bit vulgar - not for the easily offended).
 
You guys see the Adam Ruins Everything on the TSA, good stuff


As for the beats the airlines, the 500nm thing sounds about right, also depends on the departure and destination points, if you're way out in BFE, between drive time, parking, rental car, drive time, GA can make a bit of sense.
 
Agree with EdFred on connecting through hubs, although that is not as much of an issue for me living close to three major airports.
Transportation distance to local commercial service airport versus transportation distance to local GA airport
Frequency of flights...i.e. If I'm ready to start my trip at noon, but the next commercial flight doesn't leave until 4:00pm, that just took an extra four hours if I'm somewhere I don't want to be. Conversely, if I'm on vacation and the only flight leaves at 8:00am to go home, but I can stick around until 4:00pm before I need to take off myself...

For me it's not just the speed, its the flexibility. My 182 is not getting anywhere near 200kts TAS, but it will beat the airlines on many trips where the airlines simple aren't practical.

Besides, I like to fly. To me, every dollar spent on a commercial flight that could have been done in my own airplane feels like money wasted.

As far as my calculated break even point...it's usually around the full fuel range of my plane, ~600nm.
 
I think you are dead on. I own a 182 and travel almost weekly for work anywhere from 90 miles to other side of the country. When I just need to get there and back, 600 miles is about my cutoff when I go commercial vs GA. Not a hard rule, but that seems to be about the efficiency point for me when deciding GA vs Southwest...but I also do Spam Can Transport pretty efficiency with A+ Arline boarding perks, Pre-Check and Clear so commercial airport check in and hassles are typicality not a big deal for me.

I've done Florida to CA in my 182...Southwest wins in the speed and cost category on that leg!
 
Olympia, WA to Pullman, WA. 5 1/2 hours to drive. 4 hours if I ride Horizon (1+ hours to drive to SEA, arrive 2 hours before flight time and about 1 hour gate to gate). Just over 2 hours gate to gate by GA (a lowly 172). Plus 35-40 minutes to drive to KOLM and pre-flight the plane. Fastest - GA. Slowest, drive, but not by much. Least expensive? Drive.
 
When I fly commercial out of Augusta, I also have to figure in a layover either in Atlanta or Charlotte depending if I'm flying Delta or American Airlines. Whether I fly myself versus the airlines also depends on what the trip is for. Normally I use 500 miles as my break point, but if I'm flying to Oshkosh or something like that where I specifically want to go in my plane, the distance does not matter. If I'm flying long distances for business, I am more likely to fly commercial. If I am flying for myself, I would rather just fly my plane so I don't have go through the TSA crap and put up with rude people in the terror tube.
 
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Definitely depends where on where you live. Living in Long Island I can pretty much airline to anywhere in the world
 
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It depends on the flight. Going from suburban DC to suburban Boston, I can guarantee that GA wins hands down. I can leave my house, drive 55 min to my hangar, fly into OWD and transition to the family place in Hull faster than I could do the same flight going IAD->BOS and the related ground trips.

On the other hand, I have a board of directors meeting down at Lakeland. it's far cheaper (and a whole darn bit more reliable) to fly commercial r/t even factoring in getting a rental car at TPA.
 
I just got home from Palm Springs on Wednesday morning at 2 AM. I had thought about flying the 182 out there as more of a bucket list item than for any savings, but I was concerned with the late winter early spring weather.:rolleyes: So, then I considered flying the Conquest out there, no non-stop flights from Atlanta on any airline. Time would have been about the same, cost approximately triple vs a first class ticket. I almost had my friend and his wife convinced to fly out and back, he flies a 421. He had another meeting the day before and ended up taking the airlines, so did I. In hindsight, I kind of wished I had just flown myself. :(
Normally, anything under 800 miles I will fly myself. If it's an out and back the same day or if I think it's critical to be somewhere, I will book a flight. I don't want to pressure myself to make a flight if the weather is bad or I am not feeling good. :)
 
A couple decades ago I ran numbers similar to the OP. At the time, ValueJet (or similar) had $45 air fares from JAX-ATL. I was renting a C-172 for $35/hour wet and was going from the Jax area to an airport east of the Atlanta area 1-2 times a month at the. Folks asked me why I would fly myself when getting a $45 flight was so much cheaper and the plane was quicker.

As far as Part 121 being quicker, the time spent at the airport (arrive an hour early, takes about an hour or so to get out), I found that I about broke even with that. However, when travel time to and from the airports in question were concerned, I beat the time hands down. With my Cessna 172, I could get closer to my destination. So door to door times were a sure win for the Cessna.

When comparing costs, some of it can be subjective, however, when traveling with the Skyhawk, I departed from a GA field that did not charge for parking. And when I got to my destination, I had no need for a cab or rental car. I simply hopped a ride with a friend, or called the hotel and they were happy to make the 5 minute trip to come get me, at no charge. In the event a rental car was needed, I've found that getting them tends to be less expensive at the smaller airports as oppose to the airline hubs where all sort of fees are tacked on by the local government.

Folks were a bit incredulous about those numbers, even with I put it down on paper for them.
 
I did the same math some time ago (yes, math, the feared devil, crucify me, please) and came to about the same numbers with 500nm being approximately the barrier.
When it comes to cost, though, the math goes out the window because some airline flights for the same distance will differ greatly in their cost based on direction of flight. *shrug*

But I agree, this is a GREAT excuse to just go fly! :)
 
I noticed nobody factored in wear and tear on the airframe per flight compared to the airlines. I love to fly too but Commercial on a cost basis is about 80% more effective. You don't have to justify, we all love to fly.
 
Same reason no one factors wear and tear on their car when they take a trip versus the Airlines
 
My plane is a dollar a mile, all in. Buy it, fly it 100,000 miles, sell it. Total cost 10 grand.
 
mrjones30 said:
I noticed nobody factored in wear and tear on the airframe per flight compared to the airlines. I love to fly too but Commercial on a cost basis is about 80% more effective. You don't have to justify, we all love to fly.
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I figure that my per hour costs are basically fixed costs whether I fly or not. Hangar, insurance, maintenance etc. I do not and have never used reserves for engine/airframe etc, it just comes due when it comes due. Now I might start reserving money if I knew I had a major overhaul or hot section coming up, but to figure hourly costs, I just use fuel and ramp fees, otherwise it gets too expensive to fly! :rolleyes:
 
You need to add a ltx_glov 2x multiplier to the airline delay to account for the extra annoyance of getting the laytex glove treatment by TSA. It's worth a lot for me to avoid that ********.
 
When I moved out here from MI I had to fly back to Detroit to move my plane to its new digs. Counting only time from boarding to getting off (so neglecting the TSA nonsense), from BTV to DTW was about 6 hours thanks to a layover at ORD. Even with a decent headwind, MPV to either 57D or VLL has never taken me more than 4h20m. And the return flight that time, I had the best tailwind ever and made it from VLL to 6B0 (relatively cheap fuel stop, compared to MPV) in a little over 3 hours in my Cardinal RG. So on that basis, GA wins hands down. If you add in the ~1 hour drive from central VT to BTV, vs. 20 minutes to MPV, and add in the stress and delay of the TSA screening, GA's advantage only gets better.

Also, the ticket for that flight was about $250 iirc. I typically burn 30-35 gallons of 100LL on average, give or take depending on winds, for the same flight. Even at $5/gal (and there are still places where it's under $4), that beats the aluminum tube on cost. (Of course, if I considered the FULL cost including mx reserve, engine reserve, and airframe depreciation, the airline might win, probably would in fact, but I've never even tried to figure those factors into the cost of a single trip.)
 
What about the cost of your time? Yes, I understand you like to fly so that's not a waste of time.... But... On an airliner you can pull out your computer and do work. You can also do that waiting to board. It's not all wasted time.
 
GA would beat jetBlue today from LGB to SEA. Gad this flight is running LATE. My 6:10 pm departure is now 9:22 pm and counting...
 
Kritchlow said:
What about the cost of your time? Yes, I understand you like to fly so that's not a waste of time.... But... On an airliner you can pull out your computer and do work. You can also do that waiting to board. It's not all wasted time.
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I'm pretty sure that's why Cirrus has a side stick (couldn't resist).

Seriously, I don't work very well on a commercial plane or in the airport. Usually I'll read a book or the like, but I haven't had much luck getting work done from the cheap seats.
 
Brad Z said:
I'm pretty sure that's why Cirrus has a side stick (couldn't resist).

Seriously, I don't work very well on a commercial plane or in the airport. Usually I'll read a book or the like, but I haven't had much luck getting work done from the cheap seats.
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Well, many people do. Myself, I use airline time to catch up on my sleep.

On a side note, I think 200 kts may be optimistic for many GA airplanes. I also think the OP is not factoring in weather, or the return weather four days from original launch. Even if you are IR, small airplanes usually are not FIKI or have live radar on board. They certainly can't get above everything.

So, while the 500 mile rule of thumb may sound good, keep in mind that's only an 8 hour drive as well... With almost zero risk of weather delays.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well, many people do. Myself, I use airline time to catch up on my sleep.

On a side note, I think 200 kts may be optimistic for many GA airplanes. I also think the OP is not factoring in weather, or the return weather four days from original launch. Even if you are IR, small airplanes usually are not FIKI or have live radar on board. They certainly can't get above everything.

So, while the 500 mile rule of thumb may sound good, keep in mind that's only an 8 hour drive as well... With almost zero risk of weather delays.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I won't fly a trip I absolutely positively have to be there at a certain time, unless I have a suitable backup, such as driving or making a last moment airline (or Amtrak) booking.

And I'm not going anywhere near 200kts. Maybe the turbo mooney or Columbia/Cessna drivers are, but sometimes I'm lucky to do 150mph.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well, many people do. Myself, I use airline time to catch up on my sleep.

On a side note, I think 200 kts may be optimistic for many GA airplanes. I also think the OP is not factoring in weather, or the return weather four days from original launch. Even if you are IR, small airplanes usually are not FIKI or have live radar on board. They certainly can't get above everything.

So, while the 500 mile rule of thumb may sound good, keep in mind that's only an 8 hour drive as well... With almost zero risk of weather delays.
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Yeah, 200 kts is a bit faster than most GA planes. FIKI is not as big a deal in the southeast as it is up north. Sure, there are many days in the winter where ice is an issue, but not that many. Flying for a living it would be an issue, but not so much for pleasure.

Back in December we went from Atlanta to Sarasota for the day to take care of some things. That was 400 nm there, do some things at the in-laws place, have lunch then head 400 nm back home again. Back in time for dinner with our youngest at home. We brought three empty small suitcases down with us, filled them and brought them home. Just another beautiful day flying GA. :)
 
On December 29 Mrs. P and I flew back home to Portland from Phoenix ... on Southwest Airlines. The itinerary called for a change of plane in Las Vegas, with a nearly two hour layover. That made for a scheduled 5+ hour trip.

We had lunch with our kids and grandkids at a restaurant near their home in Goodyear, Arizona -- close to KGYR (where we fly in with the 172), but a half-hour drive from KPHX.

After lunch we drove to the Rental Car Center at PHX, checked in the car, then waited for the shuttle bus to the terminal. Then wait in line to check bags, then wait in line for the TSA Tango, then hike to the gate -- to find that the flight will be at least an hour late.

The Las Vegas terminal is even more cramped, crowded and unpleasant -- but our connecting flight was also an hour plus late. Only redeeming factor was that we came out $30 ahead in the slots.

On board our connecting flight, still at the gate, I watched the lone, very unmotivated, bag handler load the bags for the full flight ... one ... by one ... by one ... by one ...

We landed at KPDX after midnight, hiked through two or three zip codes to get to the baggage claim area, and waited again for our bags to come off the carousel.

We finally got to our Portland condo, exactly twelve hours after leaving the restaurant in Goodyear.

Yes, even on this long 1,000 nm trip (assuming weather would have permitted it), and even though our 172 would have required three fuel stops, it still would have gotten us home quicker. By maybe two hours. With a lot less stress and aggravation.
 
Pilawt said:
On December 29 Mrs. P and I flew back home to Portland from Phoenix ... on Southwest Airlines. The itinerary called for a change of plane in Las Vegas, with a nearly two hour layover. That made for a scheduled 5+ hour trip.

We had lunch with our kids and grandkids at a restaurant near their home in Goodyear, Arizona -- close to KGYR (where we fly in with the 172), but a half-hour drive from KPHX.

After lunch we drove to the Rental Car Center at PHX, checked in the car, then waited for the shuttle bus to the terminal. Then wait in line to check bags, then wait in line for the TSA Tango, then hike to the gate -- to find that the flight will be at least an hour late.

The Las Vegas terminal is even more cramped, crowded and unpleasant -- but our connecting flight was also an hour plus late. Only redeeming factor was that we came out $30 ahead in the slots.

On board our connecting flight, still at the gate, I watched the lone, very unmotivated, bag handler load the bags for the full flight ... one ... by one ... by one ... by one ...

We landed at KPDX after midnight, hiked through two or three zip codes to get to the baggage claim area, and waited again for our bags to come off the carousel.

We finally got to our Portland condo, exactly twelve hours after leaving the restaurant in Goodyear.

Yes, even on this long 1,000 nm trip (assuming weather would have permitted it), and even though our 172 would have required three fuel stops, it still would have gotten us home quicker. By maybe two hours. With a lot less stress and aggravation.
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Really?? If you did a 1000 mile trip with a couple fuel stops, would you be able to fly straight through without a nights rest? Once you factor in everything it would be a 14+ hour day of flying...

ETA: probably 16 hours once you factored in the need to get food.
 
Kritchlow said:
Really?? If you did a 1000 mile trip with a couple fuel stops, would you be able to fly straight through without a nights rest? Once you factor in everything it would be a 14+ hour day of flying...

ETA: probably 16 hours once you factored in the need to get food.
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Actually KVUO-KLMT-O43-KHII-KGYR, with a couple of doglegs for MOAs, is about 950 nm. My last couple of trips on that route, each in a single day, were between 7.5 and 7.9 tach hours - less than 10 portal-to-portal.
 
Pilawt said:
Actually KVUO-KLMT-O43-KHII-KGYR, with a couple of doglegs for MOAs, is about 950 nm. My last couple of trips on that route, each in a single day, were between 7.5 and 7.9 tach hours - less than 10 portal-to-portal.
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Indeed... 8 tach hours makes for 12 hour day once fuel stops, drive, planning is all factored in.
 
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