GA Airplane question: Good All-around airplane

Gort01

Gort01

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Gort01
Okay folks, I have a pretty good chunk of hours and am looking at the various makes and models out there. Have flown various PA28s. Love what I have read (here and elsewhere) on the Tiger. Mostly flying two pax. Retracts, I like the Mooney numbers, but have never sat in one. Love the Columbia (may be too $$). The only Bonanzas I can afford are 40+ years old, but I like them. Kitplanes I have narrowed down to the Sportsman 2+2. I will have a partner and we both want the option of being able to fly to either coast (from TX) in a reasonable time, so yes we'll have to navigate the mountains. I know there are a ton of variables, but am open to your joint knowledge and expertise.
 
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Gort01 said:
Okay folks, I have a pretty good chunk of hours and am looking at the various makes and models out there. Have flown various PA28s. Love what I have read (here and elsewhere) on the Tiger. Mostly flying two pax. Retracts, I like the Mooney numbers, but have never sat in one. Love the Columbia (may be too $$). The only Bonanzas I can afford are 40+ years old, but I like them. Kitplanes I have narrowed down to the Sportsman 2+2. I know there are a ton of variables, but am open to your joint knowledge and expertise.
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This is not an unusual question. The usual response is for you to define what your typical mission is. What do you want to do with this plane? Hamburger chaser? Long distance traveler? Mountains/sea level? OK, three souls aboard. FAA size or smaller? Bigger?

Let us know what you want to do. Also let us know if the plane must be capable of 100% of your mission, or if you can fly in a plane that will do 80% of the missions and you can rent something bigger/better for the final 20%


-Skip
 
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Skip, we are FAA + in size. Generally we'll only have two on board. We do want to make trips to the coasts so flatland and mountains will be a factor, although we won't be flying alot in the high terrain, we will have to traverse it.
 
Need something fairly efficient, but will take something less and make do with the rest of the missions. Both my partner and I are high time pilots, but lack alot of GA experience. Our wives are generally the other pax on most missions.
 
Knowing nothing more, one might say 182 (never a bad choice, good at most everything); a Bonanza (and yes, 40+ years old is fine - yikes, mine's 42!) is rarely a bad choice.

Tell us more about the mission...
 
Bonanza's and Comanches should be at the top of your list. 40 years old is no big deal. Mine is 53, and this annual, had $0 repairs to the air frame. I had an o-ring to replace in the parking brake, and that was it.
 
Gort01 said:
Need something fairly efficient, but will take something less and make do with the rest of the missions. Both my partner and I are high time pilots, but lack alot of GA experience. Our wives are generally the other pax on most missions.
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In the absence of more info, since you mentioned pilot, 1 pax and efficiency, Mooneys would be worth looking at.
 
Trapper John said:
In the absence of more info, since you mentioned pilot, 1 pax and efficiency, Mooneys would be worth looking at.
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If he's a midget. I am not that big (6-3, 200), and I feel cramped.
 
I can refine the mission to two to three legs to either coast from TX. All long travel will be just two people + bags. Short flights (1+30) may have four on board. I like to carry golf clubs, my owner/partner may carry a parasail. Personal travel is the overrall mission with the ability to go to places the airlines won't.
 
I think the wives would enjoy the 182 more. You can go into back country strips, it has two doors so you don't have to climb over the seat and get the inside wet in the rain. Reasonably fast, can fly over mountains, etc.
 
What about a Cardinal RG? Does that compare to a 182?
 
In regards to a Bonanza or Comanche, what is the comparison there? Both are attractive and age really doesn't bother me as long as they are well kept and documented.
 
No question, a Seawind 3000. Ny to fl non stop, 112 gal, 140k crawl, 160 cruise, and he'll it even lands in the water
 
I have looked at the DA40. I like the plane, but it seems to compare with a Tiger performance wise and costs alot more. I'll look again though, thanks.
 
My vote is Tiger (from a maintenance, cost, complexity, fuel burn, mission standpoint). Downsides are egress/entry during rain, and when you go across the mountains you might have some limitations.

Thats after flying in grummans, cherokees/arrows, Mooney E/F models, Cardinals, A36, 172 and 182.. If you can afford a 182RG then I'd consider that instead but the grumman really hits the sweet spot with me.

I took the grumman as a rental once from Houston to Dayton OH.. great plane for the trip.
 
Gort01 said:
What about a Cardinal RG? Does that compare to a 182?
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A Cardinal RG compares very well in cruise speed to a straight-leg 182, maybe a bit faster. Sips fuel slower too, and you don't have to worry about carb heat as it's fuel injected.

The only cons that I can think of are the reputed mx cost of owning a Cessna retract (I'm not convinced this is necessarily the case, but mine is down for annual at the moment so I don't want to tempt fate), and the Cardinal's slower climb rate. But unless you are doing a lot of high-altitude takeoffs, that's unlikely to be a serious problem.
 
Cardinal RG would be a good fit for 2 ppl + stuff. Nice barn-door sized doors makes getting you and stuff loaded/unloaded pretty easy. Roomy cabin, though not as wide as the 182. 200hp IO360 will get you ~140ktas on ~10.5gph. Not as much of a workhorse as the 182, especially in high DA or short strips, but still pretty capable.
 
Being in FTW, there are a few options around to help you check out these different ideas...

There is a guy over at Hicks that will happily take you for a ride or two in his C182 and help you become familiar with that.

At Northwest Regional (52F) there is the Aerovalley Flying Club that has a mid-60's Commanche 260.

At KDTO, there are 3 DA40's for rent at US Flight academy. One even is equipped with the G1000 setup.

Over at Addison (KADS) the RFC flying club has a Cherokee 180, a C177 Cardinal, and a few F33 Bonanzas.

So there are plenty of aircraft in the area available to you so you can have an hour or three of experience to help figure out which fits your needs the best.

And join the local gang over at DFWPilots.com to find out more local folks who are always willing to share your passion for flying.
 
Bo or Comanche for retract, Tiger, 182. I'd say Archer or 172 but for your coastal trips
 
Here's my list, somewhat sorted and includes 2-seaters, just to give them a chance.

* Beech A23/A19 Musketeer/Sundowner/Sierra(R)
-- Cherokee with 2 doors! Nice! Gary's steed.
* Mooney below M20J(R)
* Beech Bonanza/Debonair(R)
-- Can only afford old and falling apart examples, same as Mooney
* Cessna 177 Cardinal and (R)
-- Like 172 but nicer, hardly can find any though, $
* Grumman AA-5
-- Same issues as Tiger/Cheetah
* Cessna 172 Skyhawk <=1976
* Piper PA-28 Cherokee - no $ for Warrior etc
* Cessna 150/150M/152(2)
-- Performance of Remos, maintenance of 172, 2 seats; but plentiful
* Grumman AA-1(2)
-- High approach speeds, sharp stalls, unrecoverable spins, honeycomb, low endurance, 2 seats
* DA40, DA20(2)
-- Crazy overpriced, flat flare like Cirrus, bubble
* LongEZ (reputably made) (2)
-- Andrew had one and loved it, but with canard.com gone impossible to find one that's well made by trusty builder
* Liberty XL2 (2)
-- Performance in KABQ/KAEG was really not there, N531XL badly beaten
* Piper Tomahawk (2)
* Beech Skipper (2)
-- ugh lexan wingtips
* Luscombe 8E (2)
-- v.nice ones for sale but no factory support, elevator cables

-- Pete
 
What you need is something that is versatile, something that can handle all your gear, have rough airstrip capabilities, have room for your vehicle, and serve as a camper with some minor modifications.

With a little paint and some elbow grease, this would be your perfect all around airplane. http://www.controller.com/listingsd...HILD-C-123K/1954-FAIRCHILD-C-123K/1123732.htm?

Granted, it uses a little more fuel than a PA 28-161, but think of all the stuff you could carry. Heck, your friends could even use it as a sky diving platform if you wanted.

Of course, to own and operate this baby, ya gotta have a good job.

John
 
Gort01 said:
Skip, we are FAA + in size. Generally we'll only have two on board. We do want to make trips to the coasts so flatland and mountains will be a factor, although we won't be flying alot in the high terrain, we will have to traverse it.
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Commander 112TC (or 114BTC if you want some more power and speed) and get the tail incidence mod done. By far the most comfortable SE plane out there.
 
zaitcev said:
Here's my list, somewhat sorted and includes 2-seaters, just to give them a chance.

* Beech A23/A19 Musketeer/Sundowner/Sierra(R)
-- Cherokee with 2 doors! Nice! Gary's steed.
* Mooney below M20J(R)
* Beech Bonanza/Debonair(R)
-- Can only afford old and falling apart examples, same as Mooney
* Cessna 177 Cardinal and (R)
-- Like 172 but nicer, hardly can find any though, $
* Grumman AA-5
-- Same issues as Tiger/Cheetah
* Cessna 172 Skyhawk <=1976
* Piper PA-28 Cherokee - no $ for Warrior etc
* Cessna 150/150M/152(2)
-- Performance of Remos, maintenance of 172, 2 seats; but plentiful
* Grumman AA-1(2)
-- High approach speeds, sharp stalls, unrecoverable spins, honeycomb, low endurance, 2 seats
* DA40, DA20(2)
-- Crazy overpriced, flat flare like Cirrus, bubble
* LongEZ (reputably made) (2)
-- Andrew had one and loved it, but with canard.com gone impossible to find one that's well made by trusty builder
* Liberty XL2 (2)
-- Performance in KABQ/KAEG was really not there, N531XL badly beaten
* Piper Tomahawk (2)
* Beech Skipper (2)
-- ugh lexan wingtips
* Luscombe 8E (2)
-- v.nice ones for sale but no factory support, elevator cables

-- Pete
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Did you miss the part about traveling to the coasts from TX?

There are only two, maybe three on this list that are practical for that.
 
Regarding Pete's list, I had a fellow pilot recommend the Beech Sierra as being a very comfortable, though somewhat slow retract that is under-valued in todays market. Some of the bloggers really hate the plane. To me it has alot to offer in features, just not terribly fast. On the homebuilt front, I have found nothing to compare with the perfomance and carrying ability/versatility of the Glasair Sportsman 2+2. Decent speed, good range, fairly roomy, lots of space for bags. Thanks all for your ideas.
 
Payload requirements would vary depending on mission. Long range, 2 People + bags= 650lb(?) thats two large guys with golf bags and clothes. Speed, ideally 140 kts or greater (faster is better, but will trade for comfort), price hopefully under 100k (50K per partner)
 
Take another look at the Sierra. Most of the negative comments are OWTs by people who have never flown the Bech Aero Club planes.

The entire line is comfortable, stable, sturdy and reliable. The type club (BAC) is a tremendous asset and knowledge base.
 
Looked at the specs of the various types everyone has mentioned. Commander 112 TCA was a surprise, I had not looked at those before. Certainly fit the profile and they are fairly roomy. Perhaps the TCA package would allow for a margin going through the Rockies.
 
Trapper John said:
If all you want to do is sit on the ramp and make vroom-vroom sounds...

Max Allowable Weight (T.O): 1900#
Basic Empty Weight: 1320#
48 Gallon Fuel Capacity (46 Usable)
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You can ship the bags cheaper than you can carry them. and half a load of fuel

30X6.2= 186# leaves you room for 2 pax at 380.
 
Tom-D said:
You can ship the bags cheaper than you can carry them. and half a load of fuel

30X6.2= 186# leaves you room for 2 pax at 380.
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This makes no sense at all. The OP wants to haul 650 lb of people and bags.
 
Gort01 said:
Looked at the specs of the various types everyone has mentioned. Commander 112 TCA was a surprise, I had not looked at those before. Certainly fit the profile and they are fairly roomy. Perhaps the TCA package would allow for a margin going through the Rockies.
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TX to either coast, altitude is no factor, The highest point on I-40 is Flagstaff, at 7011 feet. why go thru the mountains? no one has ever done that successfully except the trains.
 
Tom-D said:
I see you didn't read " ship the bags"
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Yes, I saw what you wrote.

The OP wants to haul 650 lb of people and bags.

Your solution doesn't meet the OP's requirement.

Is it that hard for you to understand?
 
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