frustrated

[dreaming89]

Hey everyone

I soloed for the first time 3 lessons ago. I thought that once you solo, your instructor will let you go out on a solo each lesson after to practice (if there is nothing new to learn). The day of my solo, when I went out with my instructor to make sure everything was looking ok in the pattern, my instructor told me my landings were "Flat". My instructor told me that I needed a higher pitch attitude. On this landing the nose was pitched slightly up (nothing too dramatic) and the landing itself was very smooth. I understand I shouldn't be landing at all on the nose wheel, but again, I just don't feel it hitting the asphalt at the same time that my main landing gear is hitting the asphalt, which is what my instructor keeps telling me. He says I should not see the runway while flaring, because of the pitch attitude. I'm assuming this is correct advice?

Anyway, on the next couple landings (with the instructor), I started to balloon so as to avoid a "flat" (but smooth) landing. I was able to get out of the balloon and put the plane down with a really high pitch attitude, which is what the instructor was looking for. Then he cleared me to solo. Of course, my solo landings were all ballooned since the pitch attitude he wanted me at felt unnatural to me. I understand ballooning is caused by an excess in speed, but I crossed the threshold at 65 knots (then cut to idle) and was hitting all my target speeds in the pattern, so I didn't think I was going too fast.

The next couple lessons, the weather was marginal vfr, so I understand the decision not to solo me during those days. Still, I was being told my landings were flat, despite how smooth they felt to me.

The last lesson I had, the visibility was good and the ceiling was like 3,000 feet. Winds were like 6 knots. So no reason not to solo me. I asked if I was losing my solo privileges because of my "flat" landings. The instructor gives me a bs response every time, like "you look tired today" or "well, I want more challenging weather so I know you can really handle an unsupervised solo".

I don't know if I regressed, or if my instructor just decided to be a lot more strict with the landings. Pre-solo, I was doing good with the landings. I maybe ballooned once but was never told I was "flat" Has anyone gone through what I am going through? It's driving me insane.

 

[charris911]

Hey everyone

I soloed for the first time 3 lessons ago. I thought that once you solo, your instructor will let you go out on a solo each lesson after to practice (if there is nothing new to learn). The day of my solo, when I went out with my instructor to make sure everything was looking ok in the pattern, my instructor told me my landings were "Flat". My instructor told me that I needed a higher pitch attitude. On this landing the nose was pitched slightly up (nothing too dramatic) and the landing itself was very smooth. I understand I shouldn't be landing at all on the nose wheel, but again, I just don't feel it hitting the asphalt at the same time that my main landing gear is hitting the asphalt, which is what my instructor keeps telling me. He says I should not see the runway while flaring, because of the pitch attitude. I'm assuming this is correct advice?

Anyway, on the next couple landings (with the instructor), I started to balloon so as to avoid a "flat" (but smooth) landing. I was able to get out of the balloon and put the plane down with a really high pitch attitude, which is what the instructor was looking for. Then he cleared me to solo. Of course, my solo landings were all ballooned since the pitch attitude he wanted me at felt unnatural to me. I understand ballooning is caused by an excess in speed, but I crossed the threshold at 65 knots (then cut to idle) and was hitting all my target speeds in the pattern, so I didn't think I was going too fast.

The next couple lessons, the weather was marginal vfr, so I understand the decision not to solo me during those days. Still, I was being told my landings were flat, despite how smooth they felt to me.

The last lesson I had, the visibility was good and the ceiling was like 3,000 feet. Winds were like 6 knots. So no reason not to solo me. I asked if I was losing my solo privileges because of my "flat" landings. The instructor gives me a bs response every time, like "you look tired today" or "well, I want more challenging weather so I know you can really handle an unsupervised solo".

I don't know if I regressed, or if my instructor just decided to be a lot more strict with the landings. Pre-solo, I was doing good with the landings. I maybe ballooned once but was never told I was "flat" Has anyone gone through what I am going through? It's driving me insane.

It happens, I dont have a dramatic flare, just enough to keep nose wheel off ground as long as possible. I have seen some people aggressively yank it back. But yes, some regression happens. My first solo landings where awful, just keep going your almost there.

 

[douglas393]

For me my first solo was about midway in my training. There was a lot more to work on in terms of cross countries, pilotage, and a host of other things. I could check my log book, but it is in the hangar. Anyhow, if you are having problems with landing talk to your CFI about what he/she thinks is wrong and what you need to fix it. One of biggest problems was looking too close in front of me. You need to look down the runway and that often fixes a lot of problems. I would become fixated on my point of landing and that made many of my early landings quite atrocious.

If you are not happy with the answers you are getting, ask for another CFI to evaluate you, or go to a different school, but talk to your CFI first and explain your issues.

 

[Concorde]

I may be wrong , but I thought after you're signed off you could go solo anytime you want !

 

[Shawn]

Totally depends on the instructor. I don't know what the regs exactly say, but once I soloed my instructor let me go anytime I wanted to any of the airports he signed me off on weather he was in the office or not. Another student that was doing as well as I was had an different instructor that would only let him solo with a preflight brief and if the instructor was sitting at the school the whole time...both at the same flight school.

 

[douglas393]

I may be wrong , but I thought after you're signed off you could go solo anytime you want !

I am not sure. If I remember correctly, there were conditions on when and where I could fly after I got my solo. The initial one concerned winds, and visibility, and location, and became less restrictive as I got closer to my checkride. The other issue is renting a plane if you do not own one. I would be surprised if a FBO other than your school would rent you a plane, and your school would probably not rent you one if your instructor was not comfortable with your ability to fly solo that day. Furthermore, I would suspect that there is the ability of your instructor to withdraw your ability to solo if they want to.

 

[denverpilot]

Have the instructor demonstrate a landing that isn't flat, and ask to follow along on the controls. You'll be able to see the difference better, if you're not worrying/thinking about it.

The "ballooning" is more likely his worry on soloing you. Ballooning leads to porpoising and Pilot Induced Oscillation and worst-case, crashes. And the trick to not ballooning is to be even more ginger when pitching up. The pitch to a really slow nose up landing starts with a tiny amount of pitch, then more and faster AFTER the airplane starts to slow down. You're pitching too much too soon and then as you slow not pitching enough fast enough.

I bet... You're not transitioning your eyes to the far end of the runway in the flare and looking down it. Are you fixating your eyes right off the end of the nose and trying to judge height because of his request to get the nose up? We've all done that.

The game is called "don't let it land". Get it down within a few inches of the runway and then try to keep it off the ground. Pull a little, pull some more, puuuuuuuull a lot, don't let it touch down...

And don't stop pitching up after the wheels touch. Yoke keeps coming back. Keep pulling. All the way back to the stop. Use the elevator to fly the nosewheel down slowly.

 

[tinerj]

I could solo provided I checked in with the instructor in person or by telephone and told him the current and predicted weather at the home airport. I could only take off and land there, and had to stay in the rather large practice area (it took about 1 hr to fly around its edges in a C-150.)

He usually made suggestions on what I should practice if I chose to do so. He insisted that I do solo stalls, both power on and off, during some of my flights. I only did enough to please him. In my opinion then, and now, stall avoidance is far more important than stall recovery.

 

[douglas393]

I could solo provided I checked in with the instructor in person or by telephone and told him the current and predicted weather at the home airport. I could only take off and land there, and had to stay in the rather large practice area (it took about 1 hr to fly around its edges in a C-150.)

He usually made suggestions on what I should practice if I chose to do so. He insisted that I do solo stalls, both power on and off, during some of my flights. I only did enough to please him. In my opinion then, and now, stall avoidance is far more important than stall recovery.

I remember my instructor not wanting me to do solo stalls, certainly initially after I got my solo endorsement, but I think later as well. As to the relative importance of stall recovery versus stall avoidance, I would suggest that stall recovery becomes very much more important if you cannot avoid stall avoidance. Knowing how to do both I think is equally important.

 

[tmyers]

I remember doing ten or more stalls in a row then turning around and doing them again. All after I had soloed. I remember them because my legs would shake like crazy till I had went through two or three of them. IIRC my instructor would tell me what to work on and stalls were always on the list.

 

[airheadpenguin]

AFAIK the initial solo endorsement is only good for within 25nm of home, typically instructors include some limitation on cross-wind that later gets raised. Its also good only for an enumerated list of types which are signed off on your student pilot cert. Once I had my initial solo done I had carte blanche within this area. After your XC training you'll be allowed solo XCs but will be required to have each one signed off.

There's a lot more to learn, night flying, XC, sim instrument, and getting help sorting out any deficiencies you can't/don't want to resolve on your own.

Don't think of soloing as cutting you lose and getting to do the rest on your own. Another thing to keep in mind is that you're basically flying on your instructor's certificate. If you bend metal there will likely be some uncomfortable questions for them too.

 

[dreaming89]

Have the instructor demonstrate a landing that isn't flat, and ask to follow along on the controls. You'll be able to see the difference better, if you're not worrying/thinking about it.

The "ballooning" is more likely his worry on soloing you. Ballooning leads to porpoising and Pilot Induced Oscillation and worst-case, crashes. And the trick to not ballooning is to be even more ginger when pitching up. The pitch to a really slow nose up landing starts with a tiny amount of pitch, then more and faster AFTER the airplane starts to slow down. You're pitching too much too soon and then as you slow not pitching enough fast enough.

I bet... You're not transitioning your eyes to the far end of the runway in the flare and looking down it. Are you fixating your eyes right off the end of the nose and trying to judge height because of his request to get the nose up? We've all done that.

The game is called "don't let it land". Get it down within a few inches of the runway and then try to keep it off the ground. Pull a little, pull some more, puuuuuuuull a lot, don't let it touch down...

And don't stop pitching up after the wheels touch. Yoke keeps coming back. Keep pulling. All the way back to the stop. Use the elevator to fly the nosewheel down slowly.

Yeah, that could be it. But my instructor tells me I should not be able to see the runway when I flare. Do you agree with that?

 

[bbchien]

Every time you solo, you fly on HIS license. Get that into your brain. This is NOT about being cut loose to practice....not yet.

As a CFI, I solo pilots as early as is safe so that they start thinking about things as if PIC.

But with an attitude like yours- It'd be a long time before you soloed again.

Some of your landings are flat, that's because your airspeed is too high. If you balloon it's a combination of airspeed too high AND too large a first elevator input. You need consistency and by your own description you don't have it.

Eventually with too high a final approach airspeed, you will wheelbarrow it or bounce and come to grief. Some are slow......full stall wayyy nose high so it's clear that you don't have good airspeed control on your short final.

From here, I think you may need a careful re-work before you solo again. (now mind you, I'm here, not out where you are......so take it with a grain of salt ).

 

[bobmrg]

I may be wrong , but I thought after you're signed off you could go solo anytime you want !

Not if I were your instructor. You would have weather limitations, that's for sure, and I would expect to at least talk about your plans (or have them checked by another CFI) before you get the keys.

You get the get-off-my-back concurrently with your private ticket.

Bob Gardner

 

[kevinbentley]

I had some of these same problems, but what Bruce C said is exactly what my problem was. I was coming in too fast. I started paying close attention to my airspeed on final and using trim to control my airspeed. Trim for the speed you want and use the throttle to control your descent. I also started easing back on the throttle sooner and more gradually. If you still have some throttle in when you try to flare, you won't get much of a flare and may climb. My landings aren't always great yet, but they are a lot better.

 

[DaleB]

I had a similar thing going on... pattern work for hours and hours before my landings were good enough in my CFI's opinion. And looking back, I was still landing too flat.

The hardest thing I had to learn was to be active on the controls and "in charge" of the airplane when landing... but patient. When you cross the threshold, what you really need to do is keep the airplane flying as long as you possibly can. If you're at the right airspeed with power off and full flaps, that will not be very long, of course. But don't think of it as a "flare". Go do some more slow flight practice, and remember what the pitch attitude looks like (and how much up elevator you're holding) just before the stall. That's what it will look like during a good landing.

For a long time I tried to hurry the process along; it just doesn't pay. You have to let the plane slow down until it sinks (gently) onto the pavement. In fact, even when I took my check ride a really good landing for me was still more luck than technique. My landings were acceptable, but often not graceful.

As far as solo privileges go, it's up to the CFI. He or she can put whatever restrictions on your solo endorsement they want to. If you disagree, talk to your instructor about it. You may feel you're doing better than you're being given credit for, but remember that you is not your instructor's first student. If you really disagree, ask for another instructor to fly with you for an hour or so. It may be that they can give you a different perspective or some hints that will help. I flew with five different CFIs during my training, and each one had their own style. I learned from every one of them.

 

[airheadpenguin]

+1 for the rushing the landings camp. The airplane WILL land when it is damn good and ready to land. You can help the process by being on airspeed crossing the threshold.

If you try to rush it you may balloon, porpoise or stall into the runway

1) Be on airspeed
2) Have the right sight picture
3) Transition to looking at the end of the runway
4) Flare and hold that pitch until the airplane lands of its own accord

Figuring out #4 was what got me my solo

 

[DaleB]

4) Flare and hold that pitch until the airplane lands of its own accord

#4 is what held me up so long - I'd try to flare all at once, and balloon... or do it too late. Now I just try to keep it flying (with full flaps and no power). The trick is to fail gracefully.

 

[Clark1961]

Take the time to learn it now. No flat landings and no ballooning. It may take a lot of practice and critical input, so be it. In general, student pilots don't land well, new private pilots may be better but probably still don't land well.

There was a student pilot a few hours behind me who had many problems on landing. The chief instructor "fixed" her for the pp check ride but the "fix" didn't last. The pilot balled up a nice 180 hp 172 a few flight hours after earning her PP cert. Concussion and broken pelvis but she survived. A 172 will do it's best not to kill you, that's for sure.

Anyway, take the lessons to heart and take the time to learn it correctly now. Burn it into brain. Not trying to scare anyone, just pointing out the very good reasons to take the time to learn it right.

 

[david0tey]

Separate the flare into two steps...

1. Stop the descent. Hold the airplane in a configuration 5-10 feet off the ground at idle power.

2. Hold it off. Let the plane land itself. Do not fly it onto the runway.

 

[DesertNomad]

After my solo, I didn't solo the next flight, but did on the one after that. Then we did a bunch of XC flights - dual and solo. I probably had more XC than usual since my home airport is 4500' (elevation, not rwy length) and did a lot of practice at a 6000' field. We did a dual trip over the Sierras to sea level... it sure performs well down there.

It wasn't until after my XCs that I was more or less allowed to solo whenever I wanted... max wind 12kts, min ceiling 5000 AGL. And I had to check in with my CFI at least 24 hours prior.

 

[denverpilot]

Yeah, that could be it. But my instructor tells me I should not be able to see the runway when I flare. Do you agree with that?

That depends on what you're flying, how high the panel is, how tall you are... All this I don't know.

I can make all of my forward visibility go away unless I lean so far foreward my chin is almost over the glareshield, in a C-182 with a high panel, and I'm 5' 11" most days.

It's not about just making the runway disappear. That happens because you're using all your senses, your peripheral vision, your hearing, your kinesthetic sense (really mostly in your inner ear, but we call it your butt since you feel it in the seat of your pants as you moving in the seat), and fine motor controls on the yoke all together to keep the airplane from landing as it slows down.

You mentioned that you like criteria, so... Acceptable criteria is ZERO upward movement in altitude (ballooning) at any time during the final approach to landing, and holding the airplane off until it touches down mains first, and then you continue holding back pressure and bringing the yoke back, and the nosewheel must touch down independently. It seems impossible at first. Use lighter control inputs.

Trim out the elevator forces so you can flare only with a thumb and forefinger, until the very last portion of the flare. It isn't a horse-it-around maneuver, even though the descriptions make it sound that way. Remember as the airplane slows the elevator and the air moving over it are less effective and the elevator will go from heavy to light.

When we say get the yoke all the way back, we're talking at a normal touchdown speed perhaps somewhere in the range of 40 knots and slowing... Not when there's 65 knots of air moving over the control surfaces. You know how they feel when you check the flight controls during run-up? They'll be that loose when you're don't pulling the yoke all the way to your lap, because you'll be done flying. Don't think of it as horsing the yoke rearward against lots of pressure. There will only be normal control pressures at the beginning of the round out and flare. Toward the very end, they'll be floppy.

 

[poadeleted20]

I may be wrong , but I thought after you're signed off you could go solo anytime you want !

It's not quite that simple. Being signed off for solo essentially means that you can only fly solo from your airport within 25nm of that airport without landing anywhere else. In addition, your instructor will generally place various weather/wind limitations in the solo endorsement. And, of course, there are the general solo limitations in 61.89. Further, most flight schools have their own control procedures for solo Students, such as approval of each flight by an on-duty flight instructor.

 

[dreaming89]

thank you everyone for offering suggestions. From what I've read, I'm probably rushing the whole process and need to keep it off the ground for a little longer. I'll apply this strategy in my next lesson. I never really realized that my flare needs to be at the same pitch attitude as in slow flight. I guess that's kinda stupid for me to realize this so far into my training. So that means that, I need to bleed off 20-30 knots of speed from the time I cross the threshold to the time I touchdown? Does anyone take just a quick glance at the airspeed indicator while they are doing the flare? I stop looking at the airspeed indicator once I cross the threshold.

 

[Clark1961]

thank you everyone for offering suggestions. From what I've read, I'm probably rushing the whole process and need to keep it off the ground for a little longer. I'll apply this strategy in my next lesson. I never really realized that my flare needs to be at the same pitch attitude as in slow flight. I guess that's kinda stupid for me to realize this so far into my training. So that means that, I need to bleed off 20-30 knots of speed from the time I cross the threshold to the time I touchdown? Does anyone take just a quick glance at the airspeed indicator while they are doing the flare? I stop looking at the airspeed indicator once I cross the threshold.

This is a very good response, it shows an excellent attitude for learning.

I think that most folks have their eyes outside the cockpit at that stage. I'm sure there are folks that are capable of dividing their attention enough to be aware of instruments while flaring but I'm not one of them. My eyes are outside while rounding out, touching down, and rolling out. Once down to taxi speed I'll glance around inside if necessary.

 

[DaleB]

thank you everyone for offering suggestions. From what I've read, I'm probably rushing the whole process and need to keep it off the ground for a little longer. I'll apply this strategy in my next lesson. I never really realized that my flare needs to be at the same pitch attitude as in slow flight. I guess that's kinda stupid for me to realize this so far into my training.

Not stupid... your CFI probably never told you that's the big reason you do slow flight. Sure, you want to learn how to control the airplane when it's just above stall speed... but when would that be? T/O and landing.

So that means that, I need to bleed off 20-30 knots of speed from the time I cross the threshold to the time I touchdown? Does anyone take just a quick glance at the airspeed indicator while they are doing the flare? I stop looking at the airspeed indicator once I cross the threshold.

I don't. Once I'm low enough to transition to the flare the airspeed indicator is immaterial. I'm listening for the stall warning (which should be complaining LOUDLY by the time you touch down), watching my height above ground, and feeling the control forces.

Which reminds me of another point. When you do your slow flight, pay attention to the difference in speed between when you hear the stall warning, and when you stall. It's always nice to know how much actual warning you have. Keeps you from getting nervous when you hear it close to the ground.

 

[rich0]

I'm still fairly early in my training, but my instruction seems to be the norm based on what I'm hearing (and thanks for all the comments - I will keep them in mind during my next roundout).

Getting the roundout right is a bit tricky - I bounced a bit on my last flight due to overcorrection. I sensed in my roundout that I had given it too much nose up and I was just starting to balloon, so I reduced yoke pressure a bit too much and the nose dropped too far. I'd echo the earlier comments that in the early roundout the controls are pretty sensitive (this is probably around 70mph - old plane). Late in the roundout you really do need to pull that yoke all the way back, and the plane has the feel of a stall to it (besides the eventual alarm I can really hear the way the airflow changes around the cabin and general feel).

Thinking about it holding off on the touchdown not only reduces landing stress (assuming you don't drop too far), but it probably also helps with landing distance. At a very high angle of attack with flaps down the wing is almost like a wall moving through the air and it will generate a lot of induced drag. That lets you bleed off a lot of speed without burning through your brakes/tires, and maybe in wet/slick conditions the wing might actually generate more braking power.

My biggest concern is being too high and essentially stalling onto the runway. My instructor strongly emphasizes transitioning my viewpoint all the way to the horizon. My sense is that the roundout is a skill that needs to be practiced/learned, but for the most part the success of a landing is really established in the approach - if you're stable at a good distance then as long as you execute the rest you'll be in good shape. If you're still trying to manage too much energy/etc from the approach then a lot more finesse (and runway) will be necessary. If the pitch sensitivity requires careful management at 70mph I'm sure it will be much more tricky at 80-90. Going around is probably the better course of action for a novice.

I haven't soloed yet so I can't comment on what my instructor will require, but my sense is that it won't be much that common sense wouldn't dictate (I like the opportunity to practice with crosswinds with the CFI, but I'm not sure I'd want to be forced to have to land on my own (of course, regs or not I could always land at another field with better geometry if I felt unsafe - but better to stay on the ground)).

 

[marcoseddi]

Wow solo stalls I don't even like doin them with CFI sounds dangerous if he didnt teach you proper spin recovery, especially with power on stall.

 

[dreaming89]

Not stupid... your CFI probably never told you that's the big reason you do slow flight. Sure, you want to learn how to control the airplane when it's just above stall speed... but when would that be? T/O and landing.

I don't. Once I'm low enough to transition to the flare the airspeed indicator is immaterial. I'm listening for the stall warning (which should be complaining LOUDLY by the time you touch down), watching my height above ground, and feeling the control forces.

Which reminds me of another point. When you do your slow flight, pay attention to the difference in speed between when you hear the stall warning, and when you stall. It's always nice to know how much actual warning you have. Keeps you from getting nervous when you hear it close to the ground.

I've got a question. In slow flight, you use power to help control the flare at 40 knots. But when you flare to land, you do not use any power. Or do you have some power when you are in the flare?

 

[dreaming89]

I'm still fairly early in my training, but my instruction seems to be the norm based on what I'm hearing (and thanks for all the comments - I will keep them in mind during my next roundout).

Getting the roundout right is a bit tricky - I bounced a bit on my last flight due to overcorrection. I sensed in my roundout that I had given it too much nose up and I was just starting to balloon, so I reduced yoke pressure a bit too much and the nose dropped too far. I'd echo the earlier comments that in the early roundout the controls are pretty sensitive (this is probably around 70mph - old plane). Late in the roundout you really do need to pull that yoke all the way back, and the plane has the feel of a stall to it (besides the eventual alarm I can really hear the way the airflow changes around the cabin and general feel).

Thinking about it holding off on the touchdown not only reduces landing stress (assuming you don't drop too far), but it probably also helps with landing distance. At a very high angle of attack with flaps down the wing is almost like a wall moving through the air and it will generate a lot of induced drag. That lets you bleed off a lot of speed without burning through your brakes/tires, and maybe in wet/slick conditions the wing might actually generate more braking power.

My biggest concern is being too high and essentially stalling onto the runway. My instructor strongly emphasizes transitioning my viewpoint all the way to the horizon. My sense is that the roundout is a skill that needs to be practiced/learned, but for the most part the success of a landing is really established in the approach - if you're stable at a good distance then as long as you execute the rest you'll be in good shape. If you're still trying to manage too much energy/etc from the approach then a lot more finesse (and runway) will be necessary. If the pitch sensitivity requires careful management at 70mph I'm sure it will be much more tricky at 80-90. Going around is probably the better course of action for a novice.

I haven't soloed yet so I can't comment on what my instructor will require, but my sense is that it won't be much that common sense wouldn't dictate (I like the opportunity to practice with crosswinds with the CFI, but I'm not sure I'd want to be forced to have to land on my own (of course, regs or not I could always land at another field with better geometry if I felt unsafe - but better to stay on the ground)).

lol yes I think we have the same mind I have this fear that I'm going to stall the plane too high up. I think that's in part why my landings are flat.

 

[DaleB]

I've got a question. In slow flight, you use power to help control the flare at 40 knots. But when you flare to land, you do not use any power. Or do you have some power when you are in the flare?

Not usually. In slow flight training/practice at altitude, the object is to fly as slow as possible -- just above a stall -- while maintaining altitude. When your goal is to get the wheels on the ground, you don't want to maintain altitude. You want to try to maintain altitude (without power) just off the surface of the runway, and fail gracefully.

You'll need power if you come in a little too fast, or catch an unfortunately timed wind gust, and start to balloon. Then you'll want to add a couple hundred RPM, not enough to climb, but enough to keep you from stalling while you get back to where you want to be. Here again you have to be quick, but gentle. Learning that "finesse" while your mind is telling you, "Ohcrap-ohcrap-ohcrap-we'regonnastall-throttleNOW!!" does take practice.

 

[rich0]

Not usually. In slow flight training/practice at altitude, the object is to fly as slow as possible -- just above a stall -- while maintaining altitude. When your goal is to get the wheels on the ground, you don't want to maintain altitude.

Agreed on this - in the region of reverse command during slow flight you need more and more power to maintain speed/altitude as you get slower, but when you're landing you're not trying to maintain speed/altitude, but you want both to drop (but with speed dropping first). When you get to the point of practicing power-on stalls that is more about practicing for takeoff/go-around and not for landing.

Also, in the roundout you're in ground effect, which means that the plane has much less induced drag for any angle of attack. If you wanted to fly for a few miles in ground effect at 30kts you would need to have quite a bit of power, but if you just want to get onto the ground than any amount of power is going to increase your landing distance. Jets might land with power but they have spoilers that deploy as soon as the wheels bear weight to keep them from porpoising.

 

[dreaming89]

I've been considering switching to the 152 from the 172sp. I never anticipated doing this because of my anxieties with old planes, but the effect it'll have on my wallet will make me feel a lot better, particularly now because it seems like I have "stalled" (for lack of a better word) in my training and have reached a tipping point.

6 months ago I wouldn't step into a regional jet as a passenger because of anxieties with regional airlines. Then I forced myself into a 172 one day and got over that hump. I was able to get confidence in the 172 from an online forum (airliners.net actually), so your advice really does have the power to persuade me! I've already heard age doesn't matter with planes, it is just how well they are maintained that matters.

I'm 5'9 160 so I definitely can fit. And I'm actually after a recreational license (which only allows one passenger only), so there is no reason for me to have the back two seats of the 172. It all makes sense to switch, just need to get the same amount of confidence for the 152 that I have in the 172 now.

Does the plane handle similarly to the 172? Are flares, ground reference maneuvers, steep turns, stalls, the same? Obviously there's going to be different v speeds I know. If someone told me it was easier to do maneuvers in the 152, then that'd just make my day.

 

[RoscoeT]

So that means that, I need to bleed off 20-30 knots of speed from the time I cross the threshold to the time I touchdown?

I hope not! What are you approaching at? 1.3Vso w/ full flaps in a 152 is about 55 kts. If you're stalling power off at 42 kts, then a nice slow touchdown would be around 45 kts, but forget the ASI here. So you're only bleeding about 10 kts from the time you break the glide, round out, and "flare". I don't even like the term "flare". The ideal landing is to break the glide a little above ground effect and perform a smooth and continuous pull of the yoke back such that you arrive at the runway just above stall speed, with zero descent rate. Done properly, there really doesn't need to be this level off, "flare" and hold it off, hold it off, float, float, float routine. That means either too much speed on final, or flying it down too low to the ground before breaking the glide. Landing is no different than pulling a car up to the curb. Do you approach the curb at a steep angle, and then yank the wheel sharply to drive parallel to it for a long time before stopping? No - you simply make a small smooth wheel movement and smoothly round out so that you end up with a shallower and shallower angle the closer you get to the curb.

No need for power during a landing in a 152 either.

Does anyone take just a quick glance at the airspeed indicator while they are doing the flare?

No, bad habit and totally unnecessary. Forget the ASI, learn the proper pitch attitude for landing. Eyeballs outside where they belong.

 

[denverpilot]

Does the plane handle similarly to the 172?

Close enough.

 

[alfadog]

Can't remember any restriction on my soloing but that was almost 40 years ago. I do know that I went out and practiced stalls because I managed to put the 150 into what I know now was an incipient spin while practicing a power-on stall.

 

[alfadog]

I've got a question. In slow flight, you use power to help control the flare at 40 knots. But when you flare to land, you do not use any power. Or do you have some power when you are in the flare?

You are trading the speed you have during your descent in excess of the stall speed to arrest the descent. It is the energy management thing. In trainers that is not usually a problem. In complex aircraft, you better have some extra speed to trade if you are trying to land with no power. Those you usually carry power until the wheels touch. At least, that is my experience in the Arrow and the 182.

 

[MAKG1]

Wow solo stalls I don't even like doin them with CFI sounds dangerous if he didnt teach you proper spin recovery, especially with power on stall.

In a 172? Give yourself lots of panic room. Spin avoidance in a 172 (or in a Warrior) isn't much more than pulling the power to idle (if it isn't already there) and letting go of everything until the stall breaks. It takes a bit for a 172 to develop into a spin. A dipped wing is NOT a spin, and even that takes a fair amount of time.

Most importantly, as a student, don't do any maneuver solo that you haven't cleared with your instructor.

But I do solo stalls every once in a while, usually power off, with gear and flaps hanging down. It's a GREAT way to learn how a particular airplane lands, and the best way to determine approach speed (the POH is for max gross and max flaps). Just don't forget the CAS/IAS correction.

Do enough stalls with your instructor that they are no longer scary. They are a useful maneuver. In particular, learn how to control attitude after the stall occurs (rudder) -- this will take much of the panic away when you dip a wing.

 

[MAKG1]

In complex aircraft, you better have some extra speed to trade if you are trying to land with no power. Those you usually carry power until the wheels touch. At least, that is my experience in the Arrow and the 182.

Not for a short field landing, but otherwise, sure.

I've no experience in an Arrow, but in a 182, short field procedure is power off, full flaps, and minimum approach speed. The descent angle is really steep in that case; I don't believe the CS prop will feather at idle, but the checklist has it all the way in the other direction anyway.

A 182 isn't legally complex unless it's an RG. But it has all the other pieces; there is a lot to do compared to a 172.

 

[alfadog]

Not for a short field landing, but otherwise, sure.

I've no experience in an Arrow, but in a 182, short field procedure is power off, full flaps, and minimum approach speed. The descent angle is really steep in that case; I don't believe the CS prop will feather at idle, but the checklist has it all the way in the other direction anyway.

A 182 isn't legally complex unless it's an RG. But it has all the other pieces; there is a lot to do compared to a 172.

I will have to try that approach. In the Arrow, if you try to flare at 80 mph (my normal final approach speed) with no power, you will not arrest the descent and will land hard. I think it has to do with elevator authority. You can carry a bit more speed and pull it off fine. I think I was extending that to the 182 based on something else as shown in the video below.

Check out the below vid. This is me landing the club 182 with three people and full fuel. I have not flown much in the 182 and not at all in a while so I made the mistake of treating it like a 172; I pulled the power once the numbers were assured. It dropped out from under me and I put some power in quick and caught it. That is not what you are describing of a stabilized approach with no power.

ps, just uploaded and resolution should improve a YT continues to process it. Thanks for prompting me to get back to editing some of my footage