Frustrated with instrument training

Aww gee, Jaybee... don't get all cranky.

Having flown with both Jesse and other CFIIs, I've seen both methods...

- Brief entire approach, get it in your head in one shot.
- Brief each segment as they come.

I didn't get the impression that Jesse was CORRECTING you, he was just iterating the important stuff to him. I think you took that all wrong.

The danger in method 1 is that old brains sometimes can't hold all of an approach at the same time. Some plates are faster/easier to brief than others. And some are just cluttered up with CRAP, like when they do that "Alternate Missed Approach Hold" box, and you're new at reading them... you spend time looking at the "wrong" stuff on the plate for a while.

The danger in method 2 is that sometimes approaches throw some gotchas at you like Navaid changes or other things that if not pre-briefed will put you too far behind to fix it doing the step-by-step method. Example is actually the VOR 17 at KLNK... if you miss that there's a TURN at the VOR, and try to brief it as you cross the VOR, you will be chasing the needle hard left trying to re-establish, or going missed. Especially with an East wind.

No need to get a technique argument started -- it has nothing to do with the OPs question or frustrations. And this thread is about the OP... after all. He's in the TRAINING environment, where the instructor has him "doing laps" from approach to approach to approach to approach. He's still learning when he HAS to have certain things done by... and to learn, mistakes are required. Nobody learns anything by doing something right the first time.

Depending on what the OPs instructor is teaching for a method, both of your comments may apply. There's always a better way to fly an airplane.

That said...

30 seconds is a LONG time to be looking down at a plate when hand-flying. Especially if the aircraft has any out-of-trim tendencies or it's turbulent. At the point the OP is (probably) at, the tunnel vision is still there a bit... he may not notice a subtle sound change or other cues that the aircraft is headed off somewhere he doesn't want it to, while he's concentrating on reading the plate. He also may think he's reading the plate quickly, but the eyeballs are wandering around the plate a little bit, instead of going right to the standard locations for the stuff he needs NEXT.

I sat with the iPad on my lap for a few hours at that stage and just flipped through various approaches and briefed them out loud, never letting myself look down at the screen for more than about 5-7 seconds at a time. Then without looking back I'd quiz myself... what was the inbound course? What was MDA/DA? What was the missed approach procedure? The one thing I wouldn't quiz myself on was frequencies.

Those I like to set up and then check verbally with another look while the Ident is playing on the audio panel. (Since I can copy Morse in my head. And because I can copy in my head, I have a tendency to leave them on, which drives everyone else in the aircraft nuts... haha... it doesn't bother me at all for about 20 repeats of the ID... then finally I realize it's probably bothering the CFII or someone. To me it's no worse than just listening to someone say letters really really slow in the background... Ha.)

I did this "read the plate, quiz the plate" sitting in a comfy room until I could always answer my own questions without looking again. Now real-world, I'll look twice, or however many time needed... but the point of the drill was to speed up processing the picture and the data and retaining it long enough to spit out critical answers.

5 seconds. Try it alfa. 5 seconds and quiz yourself or have someone quiz you on the plate. Random plates. Real world you get a lot more time than 5 seconds.

Jesse's right... retain as much as you can.
Jaybee's right... make SURE if you retain NOTHING else, you know the next thing the aircraft MUST do.

After a while you'll find the real world is likely a blend of both. Jaybee is studying the plates prior to departure. In the TRAINING environment or an UNEXPECTED divert, that's not a luxury you always have. Jesse bounced me all over northern Nebraska and Iowa that last training day in December...

All I really knew was that we still had "X" number of hours of fuel on board for much of that day... and that the weather forecast was good for 500 miles.

It was approach, fake vector or "intercept blah, maintain 4000"... and another approach, and again and again that day until we stopped in Sioux City after finding most of the airports that had approaches the venerable old /A airplane could fly.

That was good hard training for the unexpected. Jaybee is correct that when doing a typical trip, you're going to have looked over the plates at the destination airport and any possible alternates.

Doing laps at the same airport is fast work. But you also start to memorize the plates a bit. Or at least what the "gotchas" are on them.

Personally, as I've looked around at stuff now with the rating, I've come to the realization that a /A aircraft in today's world CAN'T fly a whole bushel basket full of approaches. /U is REALLY bad.

I have to do some hunting at the destination and around it for 50+ miles sometimes to find reasonable alternates that have approaches that can be flown.

So in real-world flying, I've already looked at piles of plates in the destination area before launching... which is "As It Should Be(TM)", anyway...

In a way, you're both saying the same thing... get the critical information in your head, as quickly as possible, and get back to flying the airplane. The amount of "critical" information at one time, is the only difference.
 
jesse said:
We'll bounce around the state hitting random airports then proceed back to our original point of departure. In my opinion it really is the best training you'll get. If someone isn't capable of doing it I won't be signing them off for a ride.
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Ha... we were posting about that at the same time. :) Slow day here.
 
denverpilot said:
s right... retain as much as you can.
Jaybee's right... make SURE if you retain NOTHING else, you know the next thing the aircraft MUST do.
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Actually I'm not saying to retain any of it. I'm saying you need to retain what you're doing next and when you're going to do it.. **AND** you need to cover everything in advance to make sure you know HOW to do it. You don't have to retain all of that..just visualize your airplane going through the entire approach in advance.
 
jesse said:
Actually I'm not saying to retain any of it. I'm saying you need to retain what you're doing next and when you're going to do it.. **AND** you need to cover everything in advance to make sure you know HOW to do it. You don't have to retain all of that..just visualize your airplane going through the entire approach in advance.
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Fair 'nuff. :)

I have a hell of a time explaining it in words still. I actually like these threads. Get to mull over what's really going on in my head. :)
 
alfadog said:
I must admit that I find instrument training frustrating. I flew last Sat with my CFII for the first time in months and, at one point, I briefly considered landing the airplane and just saying "F*ck it". Obviously, I pushed that thought out of my head and continued. Not the first time I felt that way.

What I find frustrating is not the hood work or flying the approaches. I am pretty good at that stuff and my CFII acknowledged that I am. What frustrates me is getting the checklists done and the approach briefed and set up in a manner that I think will satisfy a DPE and all the other "paperwork". I am pretty much done and just need to sort this out.

It is hot and humid, my glasses are blurry with sweat, I have trouble making out the small print on the plate even with progressive bifocals, I am left handed and can't seem to find some rational way to write things down, I forget to do the checklists. Etc, etc.

Just venting mainly but open to any suggestions.
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Keep at it; you won't regret it.
 
I have heard and seen instructors that think you have to recite the entire AF/D on the approach - thats retarded first of all and secondly that is all done on the ground before you leave.
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Good luck pre briefing that approach before you take off if you're flying somewhere busy with a lot of arrivals and approaches.

Are you going to brief all 70-odd procedures for Miami if you're flying there? Probably not.

Generally one waits to see what one will be issued for a procedure, before briefing it.
 
Thanks for all the encouragement! It helps to know that others have gone through the same frustration.

Regarding briefing an approach in under 30 seconds, perhaps after I have looked at a few hundred of them, I will be able to do that. Until then, is it OK if I keep flying and trying?? LOL.
 
alfadog said:
Thanks.

Yes, my CFII wants me to take my hands off the yoke more and steer with my feet while doing things with my hand(s) because I have a bit of a heavy hand and sometimes introduce a bank if I am not attentive. As far as the vision, it is a bit of a PITA but I can make the plate out well enough. If that were the only thing it would not be a problem but it is late to brief, not sure of how I should brief, and now my glasses are blurry. Oy. I also use a Francis Hood which severely blocks vision and may be part of the issue with reading the plate.

Obviously, it comes down to practice. I am putting together a practice pattern to just get a routine on the checklists and brief.
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One of the little ironies regarding IFR flying is that while the typical view limiting device does a poor job of simulating the difficulties of the real thing (wisps of clouds, rain and/or snow streaming by, tilted false horizons, and truly sucky visibility are kinda hard to simulate with a hood), the also tend to make some things like reading charts and setting up radios a lot harder than they are when flying in actual IMC with "normal vision".
 
You know, Alfa, it occurs to me that one thing most intrument students don't get much opportunity to do is watch someone perform the tasks they're struggling with...someone who is really good at it. It might take some of the mystery out of the whole affair. If you could sit in the copilot seat of an Ameriflite Navajo some dark and stormy night, you'd gain a lot of insight. The training environment is so artificial. Maybe you and a buddy outa get your instructor in the herochair of the 172...and just watch how he does it. Can be quite educational.
 
j1b3h0 said:
You know, Alfa, it occurs to me that one thing most intrument students don't get much opportunity to do is watch someone perform the tasks they're struggling with...someone who is really good at it. It might take some of the mystery out of the whole affair. If you could sit in the copilot seat of an Ameriflite Navajo some dark and stormy night, you'd gain a lot of insight. The training environment is so artificial. Maybe you and a buddy outa get your instructor in the herochair of the 172...and just watch how he does it. Can be quite educational.
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I enjoyed watching Jesse shoot a few approaches the night before my second half of my checkride.

(Also got to see the Deb, and see how nice a 430 coupled to an autopilot is...)

Jason's comment from the back seat was classic... "This will **** you off..." as Jesse stuck the ILS needles to the center donut and they didn't even twitch all the way down. ;)

I agree. Go watch someone else do it. It's educational and fun.
 
IMO you have identified the most glaring weakness of many in our training system. A high percentage of pilots start in the HS and never sit anywhere else throughout their training, nor are they interested in doing so. In many cases they never see anybody else do anything unless it's a maneuver demo by the CFI in the right seat.

Whether they learned more than the bare minimum required to pass the check ride(s) or whether their CFI was capable of teaching a starving dog to come in out of a blizzard for a T-bone steak, they are suddenly conferred all the privileges and self-assuredness that comes with the ratings and assume they are as good as everyone else.

Many years ago I learned that when teaching transition to any new aircraft that is significantly different than whatever they have flown to date, I put them in the right seat and tell them they will learn more and more quickly by watching than by doing, at least for the first short session. The most-frequent reaction after the flight is an acknowledgement that they were able to concentrate and absorb much more easily without the mental burden of figuring out the new stuff while trying to do it at the same time.

The reason I adopted this technique is that Oscar Duncan used it on me when I started flying the Bonanza during the stone age, and I remembered being relaxed that I could just sit and watch while he effortlessly went through the HS routines that would have been downright painful if I had been required to do them the first time I sat in the airplane.

j1b3h0 said:
You know, Alfa, it occurs to me that one thing most intrument students don't get much opportunity to do is watch someone perform the tasks they're struggling with...someone who is really good at it. It might take some of the mystery out of the whole affair. If you could sit in the copilot seat of an Ameriflite Navajo some dark and stormy night, you'd gain a lot of insight. The training environment is so artificial. Maybe you and a buddy outa get your instructor in the herochair of the 172...and just watch how he does it. Can be quite educational.
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wabower said:
IMO you have identified the most glaring weakness of many in our training system. ...

Many years ago I learned that when teaching transition to any new aircraft that is significantly different than whatever they have flown to date, I put them in the right seat and tell them they will learn more and more quickly by watching than by doing, at least for the first short session. The most-frequent reaction after the flight is an acknowledgement that they were able to concentrate and absorb much more easily without the mental burden of figuring out the new stuff while trying to do it at the same time.

The reason I adopted this technique is that Oscar Duncan used it on me when I started flying the Bonanza during the stone age, and I remembered being relaxed that I could just sit and watch while he effortlessly went through the HS routines that would have been downright painful if I had been required to do them the first time I sat in the airplane.
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Excellent post!

I've at times envied my most-frequent pax ... not interested in learning to fly, but have learned so much without even trying. Jumping right into the left-seat frying pan (which would have been my wont even given the option) with absolutely other no exposure to aviation, I still feel like I'm trying to catch up. (Sometimes.)
 
Agree with both of you. It reminds me of my (misspent?) youth in the 70's where my local bar in West Palm Beach happened to be the one place that "road players", i.e. professional pool players, would hit in South Florida. See The Hustler and The Color of Money. They did not like to go down to Miami and WPB was as far south as they would come. A lot of folks that think they can play pool do not even know what good pool looks like, at least prior to ESPN. I learned a lot just watching, and, of course, the better players would be happy to school me for $1 a game when things were slow. I got to be a "C" player yet could go in any other bar in town, drink free all night, and leave with a pocket full of singles provided I "laid down" and did not show how good I, a "C" player, was.

edit: point being, of course, that many folks "learning" a skill do not even know what it is supposed to look like when done at a professional level.

edit: that is another thing that is so great about the internet and YouTube in particular. In addition to the MSFS "pilots" (LOL), there are plenty of videos of actual pros doing actual things.

j1b3h0 said:
You know, Alfa, it occurs to me that one thing most intrument students don't get much opportunity to do is watch someone perform the tasks they're struggling with...someone who is really good at it. It might take some of the mystery out of the whole affair. If you could sit in the copilot seat of an Ameriflite Navajo some dark and stormy night, you'd gain a lot of insight. The training environment is so artificial. Maybe you and a buddy outa get your instructor in the herochair of the 172...and just watch how he does it. Can be quite educational.
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wabower said:
IMO you have identified the most glaring weakness of many in our training system. A high percentage of pilots start in the HS and never sit anywhere else throughout their training, nor are they interested in doing so. In many cases they never see anybody else do anything unless it's a maneuver demo by the CFI in the right seat.

Whether they learned more than the bare minimum required to pass the check ride(s) or whether their CFI was capable of teaching a starving dog to come in out of a blizzard for a T-bone steak, they are suddenly conferred all the privileges and self-assuredness that comes with the ratings and assume they are as good as everyone else.

Many years ago I learned that when teaching transition to any new aircraft that is significantly different than whatever they have flown to date, I put them in the right seat and tell them they will learn more and more quickly by watching than by doing, at least for the first short session. The most-frequent reaction after the flight is an acknowledgement that they were able to concentrate and absorb much more easily without the mental burden of figuring out the new stuff while trying to do it at the same time.

The reason I adopted this technique is that Oscar Duncan used it on me when I started flying the Bonanza during the stone age, and I remembered being relaxed that I could just sit and watch while he effortlessly went through the HS routines that would have been downright painful if I had been required to do them the first time I sat in the airplane.
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alfadog said:
Thanks, I will look into them (funny how those sorts of plays on words happen without trying - I have noticed that a lot).
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I use progressives for flying, So much easier than finding the sweet spot IMO. I'm going to get a pair of the those clip-flips for fly fishing though.
 
And many pilots find they can't use them because the straight lines are crooked and the crooked lines are straight. I've worn trifocals for many years and find the three ranges (close-up for reading charts, plates, checklists, newspaper, midrange for instrument panel or ipad movie on the glare-shield and ```distance vision for occasional glances outside when I'm not napping) are perfect for cockpit use.

Alexb2000 said:
I use progressives for flying, So much easier than finding the sweet spot IMO. I'm going to get a pair of the those clip-flips for fly fishing though.
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denverpilot said:
The danger in method 1 is that old brains sometimes can't hold all of an approach at the same time. Some plates are faster/easier to brief than others. And some are just cluttered up with CRAP, like when they do that "Alternate Missed Approach Hold" box, and you're new at reading them... you spend time looking at the "wrong" stuff on the plate for a while.
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Like Jesse said, not looking to memorize (different to me than retain) but to retain a familiarity with what will come next. Also to set up all radios.


30 seconds is a LONG time to be looking down at a plate when hand-flying. Especially if the aircraft has any out-of-trim tendencies or it's turbulent. At the point the OP is (probably) at, the tunnel vision is still there a bit... he may not notice a subtle sound change or other cues that the aircraft is headed off somewhere he doesn't want it to, while he's concentrating on reading the plate. He also may think he's reading the plate quickly, but the eyeballs are wandering around the plate a little bit, instead of going right to the standard locations for the stuff he needs NEXT.
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I don't think JB is advocating staring at the plate for 30 seconds, I think he means that the brief is less than 30 seconds start to finish and another 30 to set the radio. I am sure he is maintaining his scan throughout. And yes, if you are only looking at just your next FACT, then I can see that. But what if there are multiple freqs, i.e. a fix identified by a VOR radial? What about the briefing the missed, and it requires a different VOR? Like the below.

On my last training flight, I was told to fly the KTMB ILS 9R. That ILS was OOS for years while they extended 9R and just recently turned on again. I had never flown it, I had never looked at the plate. My CFII hands me the plate. Unfamiliar approach, three frequencies, student pilot, handling the radio, following ATC, maintaining scan. 60 seconds or find another hobby? LOL.

5 seconds. Try it alfa. 5 seconds and quiz yourself or have someone quiz you on the plate. Random plates. Real world you get a lot more time than 5 seconds.
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Will do, thanks.

Personally, as I've looked around at stuff now with the rating, I've come to the realization that a /A aircraft in today's world CAN'T fly a whole bushel basket full of approaches. /U is REALLY bad.
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That is why, as much as I would like to be in my Arrow, I like the club 172's with 430W for this training.
 
Most approaches can be broen down easily.

Be sure the approach plate you're using matches the clearance.

Enter the frequencies in the various boxes. (tune and identify). Do one at a time, easy to manage while flying the airplane.

Scan the plate for HATS

Heading orientation/acclimation (ILS 15 will be generally SE, something close to 150 degrees)

A)ltitudes, begin and end. Round to the nearest easy number. The ILS at my airport is 2200 for 950.

Time (if applicable)

Screwup (first part of the miss procedure)
 
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