Frustrated w/ an FBO

inav8r

inav8r

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
600
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Indiana, US
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Display name:
Mike B.
On Thanksgiving day I was in a position where I needed a pre-heat for my plane. The FBO where I was at normally charges $10 for this service. However the guy who was working didn't know how to operate the pre-heater so I was told that I was going to have to pay the $200 holiday emergency call out fee for the chief mechanic to come out and show him how to operate it...

I realize it was a holiday and all, but I felt this was rediculous. I wound up not opting for the pre-heat (as club rules say 10F or -12C b4 a preheat is required) and it was only -5C or so - but it meant that I had to sit idling on the ramp for close to 15 mins waiting for the oil temps to come up and that wound up costing me more than the preheat would have.

Now I don't want to bad mouth the (unnamed) FBO - they're great, really they are. I 99% of the time receive teriffic service from their guys when I'm there. I think the guy who was on for the holiday was new - or he's just never had to do a pre-heat before. So it's no big deal - but what I felt was unfair that I was basically going to have to pay for their lack of foresight and training.
 
I can undersand your frustration, but it was a holiday and there were a lot of FBO's that were closed totally on Thanksgiving, including the one I flew from and the one I flew to on Thanksgiving day. At least you was manned.
 
inav8r said:
but it meant that I had to sit idling on the ramp for close to 15 mins waiting for the oil temps to come up and that wound up costing me more than the preheat would have.
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In the colder months. I don't think I ever see an indication on the oil temperature gauge in most of the airplanes I fly after a hour of XC. Obviously there may be some increased wear.

I do recall there being some Lycoming document somewhere that discusses this issue and says that if you can apply full throttle smoothly with no cough from the engine you are good to fly.
 
jangell said:
I do recall there being some Lycoming document somewhere that discusses this issue and says that if you can apply full throttle smoothly with no cough from the engine you are good to fly.
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My instructor gave me this bit of advice during my PP training. After startup, taxi, and the normal runup/preflight checks, if the oil temp is not in the green, do a brief full power runup to check static RPM and to check for smooth no stumble power. I end up doing that severl times each winter.
 
Bill Jennings said:
My instructor gave me this bit of advice during my PP training. After startup, taxi, and the normal runup/preflight checks, if the oil temp is not in the green, do a brief full power runup to check static RPM and to check for smooth no stumble power. I end up doing that severl times each winter.
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Bill:

Please disregard this advise when you get your own plane :fcross:.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Bill:

Please disregard this advise when you get your own plane :fcross:.

Best,

Dave
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As terrible as it may sound. It's pretty common up here. It's either that or don't fly your airplane. Our engines reach TBO just like everyone else.
 
inav8r said:
but it meant that I had to sit idling on the ramp for close to 15 mins waiting for the oil temps to come up and that wound up costing me more than the preheat would have.
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You burnt up $200 in 15 minutes of idling? What are you flying, a P-51?
 
Well, there are actually things that can be done to remedy this that still allow you to fly your plane and can get your oil temp in the green so the engine gets proper lube. Different grades of oil; limiting cooling to the oil cooler and a couple of other things.

Ask Lance what he does; last time he came to see me when it was real cold, he idled on the ramp for a sustained period before departing. I know a lot of folks that limit air flow to the oil cooler in winter. Or, are these things being done and you still can't get proper temp?

Best,

Dave
 
ter
jangell said:
As terrible as it may sound. It's pretty common up here. It's either that or don't fly your airplane. Our engines reach TBO just like everyone else.
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Yep Jesse is right sometimes in the winter you may not see the oil temp in the green for a good hour. If I put the winter plate on it helps a bit, but on the smaller engines like the O320 and O360 it is not uncommon to see oild temps barely in the green. Some FBOs will not let their planes fly when it is below a certain temp, even with preheat. If the temp is below near 0F I try to limit my flying as well.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Well, there are actually things that can be done to remedy this that still allow you to fly your plane and can get your oil temp in the green so the engine gets proper lube. Different grades of oil; limiting cooling to the oil cooler and a couple of other things.

Ask Lance what he does; last time he came to see me when it was real cold, he idled on the ramp for a sustained period before departing. I know a lot of folks that limit air flow to the oil cooler in winter. Or, are these things being done and you still can't get proper temp?

Best,

Dave
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I don't own the airplanes so I don't really ask many questions. I imagine Lance's engines are capable of warming up much quicker than your typical 150 or 172.

Most airplanes I've seen have a winterization kit of some type installed which essentially just limits the airflow. This doesn't do much good though waiting for your engine to warm up on the ground since your airflow at this point is minimal. Typically IME 172s will indicate an oil temperature after a cross country. 150 just isn't going to happen. Neither of them are going to be showing anything before takeoff.

I highly doubt the FBO and their mechanics haven't made an attempt at making them warm up quicker. Like I said, I don't see planes falling short of TBO. I've had this debate quite a few times on other forums. Someone eventually pulled up a Lycoming document that addressed it.

This is the down side of an air cooled engine. If it gets too hot there isn't much you can do and if it won't warm up there isn't much you can do either. Liquid cooled engines are designed to heat rapidly which will then trigger the circulation of coolant to control the temperature.
 
You guys need to quit flying airplanes with such efficient little engines. :)

Try the IO-540 sometime - I can usually get the oil up to temp by the time I taxi out, but I use preheat anytime the outside temp is below 40*F. Ok, maybe once I had to wait for a few minutes in the runup area, but I never take off until the oil temp on the JPI is above 90*F.

James Dean
 
I see what you're saying now, it's more a warm up issue. Guess that's all the more reason for pre-heat up your way.

Guess I'm used to the bigger bore engines. If you have the winterization kit on and the proper oil in it, the only other thing I can think of is leaning the mixture to peak EGT to heat (at low power). They fly these in Alaska; so, there must be a way, but I could see how a rental fleet operator might not want to spend the extra money required on it.

I can understand this a bit more where you are Jesse, don't understand it happening to Bill very much. Even if your planes are getting to TBO, they are generally flown a lot more than an owner might fly; I'd still want green oil temps in a plane I owned (and controlled).

Even at zero, the P-Baron will get into the green arc on oil temp, it just takes awhile. I also have the Reef pre-heaters, but sometimes those don't do as much as needed. I have to idle for awhile.

Didn't know the small bore stuff had this issue. Thanks for letting me know.

Best,

Dave
 
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I was always taught to preheat if the temps go below 32F/0C. Its easy for me, I just plug in the plane the night before I fly.
 
That would be nice, if our hanger had power...
 
i flew a 150 home last february. killer headwinds made it a 2 hr trip in a 150. freezing cold, like 10 or 15degF below zero. Never got oil temp off the bottom peg. on short final, with runway made, power to idle, and engine died. rolled most the way off onto taxiway, had to prime to get it to start. brrrrrr.
 
Bill Jennings said:
My instructor gave me this bit of advice during my PP training. After startup, taxi, and the normal runup/preflight checks, if the oil temp is not in the green, do a brief full power runup to check static RPM and to check for smooth no stumble power. I end up doing that severl times each winter.
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:hairraise: :hairraise: :hairraise: :hairraise: :hairraise:
 
Dave Siciliano said:
don't understand it happening to Bill very much.
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Saturday afternoon, 2pm, 172P, sunny 62F, hadn't been flown that day. Startup and listen to ATIS, talk to CD, taxi about 3000ft to runup pad. Flight controls, runup at 1700rpm, mag checks, idle checks, all other checks, transponder to alt, lights on, etc. But, Oil temp still below the green, so a quick full power runup to verify full power and smooth engine ops, and away we go.

In any event, I would have been going to full power maybe two minutes after I did the static full power test, so is that a big deal or not??? :dunno:
 
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gibbons said:
:hairraise: :hairraise: :hairraise: :hairraise: :hairraise:
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That is exactly what Lycoming says to do. When I get time tonight I'll try to find it.
 
Question for the mechanics out there...

... What are the dangers involved in or the damages caused by cold-starting the engine?

I know I should know this, but I don't remember now...

We start car engines when it's frickin freezing (Mr. Bigglesworth), so why not airplane engines? Whats the difference between taking the engine from, oh, say 50F to a few hundred F and 0F to a few hundred?

Why is it bad to start the engine cold and just let it idle to warm up? Or even a hundred or 2 RPM over idle to let it heat up some?
 
Greebo said:
We start car engines when it's frickin freezing (Mr. Bigglesworth), so why not airplane engines? Whats the difference between taking the engine from, oh, say 50F to a few hundred F and 0F to a few hundred?

Why is it bad to start the engine cold and just let it idle to warm up? Or even a hundred or 2 RPM over idle to let it heat up some?
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Interestingly, both car owners manuals and mechanics recommend warming car engines by sedate driving vs. letting the engines sit and idle until warm.

When I lived in PA and NY, everyone started their engine, let it idle for 15 to 20 seconds, and then gently drive off.

When I moved to TN, I died laughing. Anything less than 40F or so, end everyone thinks you need to let your engine idle for 30min to warm it before driving off. Snork!
 
i like to let my engine idle for a while whne its really cold so that the heat is working and I dont freeze!
 
I have a block heater in my car engine and plug it in when ever the temp drops below about 40F. Get the heat workign a bit quicker too!
 
Remote start. I wake up. Hit the remote start. Take a shower. Get dressed and get inside my car which is usally about 90F by this point.
 
Guess there are a couple issues Bill.

In a rental plane, you probably won't know how accurate that oil temp. gauge is. In you're own plane, you should know. I have a digital read out also on my JPI, so I can see the actual temp.

The most engine wear is created when the engine is cold started. Think about it, until the oil is pumped up from where it is sumped, you have no cylinder or other upper engine lubrication (different engines would have different issues). If the plane was flown recently, there will be residual lube, but if it hasn't been run for awhile, little lubrication will be in the upper engine components.

When you start, heat is applied differently in various parts of the engine. Different parts expand at different rates. You even have different metals (cylinders v. pistons, etc.) expanding at different rates.

Once with in operating parameters, things should be within design tolerances; outside operating parameters, they are not. This creates additional wear.

Best,

Dave
 
i think if they are going to be selling engines/airplanes in northern climates, then the temperatures that go along with those should be within the design tolerances.
 
Plane engines are run differently than car engines. Most cars don't run for prolonged periods at 65% power or more. When we takeoff, we may be running 100% power for several minutes, then, slowing to 65 to 75% power for a long time. Most cars don't run over 40 to 45% power long; the exception being long trips on freeways.


One reason we pre-heat of at least idle until oil temp is in the green is because whe contemplete putting the gas to the floor for seveal minutes when we depart (most of us don't depart like this in a car <g>.)



Cold oil is like malaises. You've got to get the operating temp up to the point the oil properly flows. A multi-grade oil may flow better cold, but a lot of us use single grade oils targeted at lubricating for long periods at higher temperatures.

Best,

Dave
 
Anthony said:
You burnt up $200 in 15 minutes of idling? What are you flying, a P-51?
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No, it cost me more than the $10 that it would have cost for the pre-heat had the lineman on duty known how to run the pre-heater.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Plane engines are run differently than car engines. Most cars don't run for prolonged periods at 65% power or more. When we takeoff, we may be running 100% power for several minutes, then, slowing to 65 to 75% power for a long time. Most cars don't run over 40 to 45% power long; the exception being long trips on freeways.


One reason we pre-heat of at least idle until oil temp is in the green is because whe contemplete putting the gas to the floor for seveal minutes when we depart (most of us don't depart like this in a car <g>.)
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Plane engines are also built for it. Car engines are not.

Pontiac Sunfire: 2.3L 4 cylinder engine that can put out 145 HP at 5800 RPM
O-320: 5.2L 4 Cylinder engine that can put out 160 HP at like 2700RPM

See a difference?
 
Bill Jennings said:
Saturday afternoon, 2pm, 172P, sunny 62F, hadn't been flown that day. Startup and listen to ATIS, talk to CD, taxi about 3000ft to runup pad. Flight controls, runup at 1700rpm, mag checks, idle checks, all other checks, transponder to alt, lights on, etc. But, Oil temp still below the green, so a quick full power runup to verify full power and smooth engine ops, and away we go.
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Bill,

My bad. I misread the original post. I was thinking the oil temp was still on the peg and you were doing your run-up - not that it wasn't in the green. I never do a run-up until the oil temp is off the peg - or at 80 degrees if I have a digital oil temp.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Here's an attempt by Mike Busch to explain it in more detail.

Best,

Dave

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182846-1.html
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I never liked that article. The guy takes it too far "a single cold start is like 500 hours of wear" my ass. If that was the case rental planes would be getting new engines twice a week. I see very few rental planes that don't make TBO.

Cold start the airplane with it below zero. Go full power. And stand there throwing bricks into the prop every few seconds...and you might do 500 hours of damage..
 
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If the FBO owner didn't ensure that his staff was properly trained before leaving them alone on a holiday weekend, I don't see why you should pay for that training.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Maybe Lycoming's recommendations will make an impression.

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=/support/publications/keyReprints/operation/coldWeather.html

Best,

Dave
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In an ideal world you would do the ideal things. The world isn't always ideal and with some airplanes you have no choice.

The Cessna 150 I got my private in would come out of a HEATED hangar. Directly outside. I would crank within a minute of it rolling out. I would never get oil temp indication during the cold times of the winter. Ever.

C172s. You can preheat them. You can start them. You can taxi, run up, etc. You won't be anywhere near the green until well into the climb or cruise.

IMO If you can smoothly advance power without hesitation you are doing no more damage than sitting on the ground holding the brakes waiting for it to warm up. Either way it's not exactly easy on the airplane. But that's winter flying.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Maybe Lycoming's recommendations will make an impression.

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=/support/publications/keyReprints/operation/coldWeather.html

Best,

Dave
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There is a handy tip about when to preheat:
For most Lycoming models, preheat should be applied anytime temperatures are at 10oF or lower. The exception to this rule is the 76 series models that include the O-320-H, and the O/LO-360-E. These engines should be preheated when temperatures are below 20o F.
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However, I saw no mention of warm-up recommendations in this very useful document. The only item that I saw that seemed relevant was this:

Keeping the oil temperature above the minimum recommended temperature is a factor in engine longevity. Low operating temperatures do not vaporize the moisture that collects in the oil as the engine breathes damp air for normal combustion. When minimum recommended oil temperatures are not maintained, oil should be changed more frequently than the normally recommended 50 hour change cycle. This is necessary in order to eliminate the moisture that collects and contaminates the oil.
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Chris
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Sigh...what ever.

Dave
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So are you saying never fly a Cessna in the winter?

The C150 I flew always did this. The mechanics told me it's fine. The instructor told me it is fine. The engine made TBO without an issue.

C172s. Same thing

I don't mean any disrepect towards you Dave. I'm speaking from experience flying these airplanes in Minnesota weather.
 
Anthony said:
I was always taught to preheat if the temps go below 32F/0C. Its easy for me, I just plug in the plane the night before I fly.
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Even easier when you have heated hangars :D

In the Robinsons,we look not only for oil temp to move into the green, but for the CHT to move up some (warmup is at 70% ERPM, we increase throttle to 77% ERPM for the mag check, carb heat check (R22 only), and sprag clutch check). After pulling pitch to get into a hover, it only takes a few seconds for oil temp and CHT to reach normal values...
 
Ron Levy said:
If the FBO owner didn't ensure that his staff was properly trained before leaving them alone on a holiday weekend, I don't see why you should pay for that training.
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BINGO!
 
jangell said:
So are you saying never fly a Cessna in the winter?
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I've tried to respond on here and it keeps telling me the message is too short. Can anyone coach me on this?



Best,



Dave
 
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