Frustrated w/ an FBO

[Dave Siciliano]

There is a handy tip about when to preheat:
However, I saw no mention of warm-up recommendations in this very useful document. The only item that I saw that seemed relevant was this:
Chris

Chris:

I think it's telling you to preheat--the best you can. Then, to keep the temperatures within the normal operating range.

In between would be a start and warm up. If you've preheated the best you can, start the plane and let it warm up. Since I don't operate this particular make and model plane a lot (it's been a long time), I'm not the best reference. In general, I would let it idle at 1,000 RPM as recommended, lean the mixture for peak egt and hope oil temps got into the green within a reasonable period of time. Maybe a slightly higher RPM is justifiable. With the analogue gauge on there, I just wouldn't know what to expect.

I certainly am willing to defer to someone that knows more than I about cold weather ops in this plane.

Best,

Dave

 

[jesse]

I've tried to respond on here and it keeps telling me the message is too short. Can anyone coach me on this?



Best,



Dave

That usually means you either didn't close a quote or you are trying to post your responses in a quote. The only thing in a quote should be waht I say. Your responses should be after the quote is closed using the / sign.

 

[flyersfan31]

Let's not turn this into a thread about inverted stalls.

Back to the point - I was p-o'd at my FBO on Saturday. Called the afternoon before to have the Tanis plugged in. Arrived early Sat morning, temps 27F, plane wasn't plugged in. Being the good owner that I am, I didn't want to do a cold start. Plus, my battery is a little weak and cold starts have become a challenge. So, I got a preheat at $25. I'm thinking of asking for a refund since this is the second time it's happened.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

On that topic, I think Ron hit the nail on the head. Why should the consumer pay for someone that didn't know how to operate a piece of equipment ( that was supposed to know.) I can understand a holiday fee schedule, but not an emergency call out. This guy was open and the staff is supposed to be able to run the operation.

I'd have a talk with whoever runs the place.

Best,

Dave

 

[Steve]

Maybe it was a neutronium powered pre-heater with a tritium-deuterium oscillator ignition sub-system. Gawd, those are hard to start!

 

[ScottM]

Maybe it was a neutronium powered pre-heater with a tritium-deuterium oscillator ignition sub-system. Gawd, those are hard to start!

Yeah but once the flux capacitor is primed they work like a champ

 

[flyersfan31]

Exactly, Dave. An emergency call-out charge is pure BS. The guy can't work the preheater? Not my problem, don't try to make it mine.

 

[Chache]

Exactly, Dave. An emergency call-out charge is pure BS. The guy can't work the preheater? Not my problem, don't try to make it mine.

Agreed!
A major *"operational malfunction" on their part, ( *read: incompetence )
does NOT constitute an Emergency Charge on my part
(to get the competent guy out of bed)

 

[KennyFlys]

One reason we pre-heat of at least idle until oil temp is in the green is because when contemplate putting the gas to the floor for several minutes when we depart (most of us don't depart like this in a car <g>.)

You've obviously never watched a courier in a downtown business district!

I've not faced cold that low... yet. But, you Yankees sure make a good case for staying down here in Jawjuh!

 

[Shipoke]

That would be nice, if our hanger had power...

Thats why i bought a Sure-Fire Preheater just plug it in the car lighter and turn on the bottle,wait about 1/2 hour and your good to go.
Dave G

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Thank You, God, for sending me to Texas.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

IMHO, a call to the FBO manager is in order, even though you chose not to pay the fee.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I never take off until the oil temp on the JPI is above 90*F.

JPI? What's that?

These are rental planes we're talking about, after all.

I've never seen a JPI in a rental. The only time you see any sort of engine analyzer type functionality in a rental is when the airplane comes standard with it (EG steam-gauge DA40's with the EDM-930 or any of the glass panel birds).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

When I moved to TN, I died laughing. Anything less than 40F or so, end everyone thinks you need to let your engine idle for 30min to warm it before driving off. Snork!

Well, you do! That is, if you drive a 1971 Dodge Dart.

I think the gauges in most rental birds are suspect at best. Jesse is right on... And so is Dave, each for their particular situation.

FWIW, our club rules state that preheat is required below 20F and flight is prohibited below -20F. The 182 gets kind of fussy below 0F. Climbs like you wouldn't believe though... 1600FPM cruise climb at near max gross after reducing to 25"/2400. I wish I'd have looked at the VSI during the initial climb.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The most engine wear is created when the engine is cold started. Think about it, until the oil is pumped up from where it is sumped, you have no cylinder or other upper engine lubrication (different engines would have different issues). If the plane was flown recently, there will be residual lube, but if it hasn't been run for awhile, little lubrication will be in the upper engine components.

True... But how does temperature affect this? Oil is thicker and flows slower when it's cold, but it's still getting pumped and engines would still lack much lubrication when they're first being started even when it's warm.

Does anyone on the board have a pre-oiler in their plane? Any opinions on those?

 

[Richard]

Hard to start due to increase in friction on moving parts. Excessive draw on already weakened battery. Increased wear on starter. Excessive engine wear due to limited oil flow. Low oil pressure due to pump inlet screen becoming clogged with high viscosity oil. Erratic oil pressure as air becomes entrained in thickened oil. Crystallization of wax compounds in motor oil results in resistence to flow. These are a few of my favorite things....

Pour point http://www.sudandrill.com/page3.html

 

[inav8r]

If the FBO owner didn't ensure that his staff was properly trained before leaving them alone on a holiday weekend, I don't see why you should pay for that training.

Yes, exactly, and why I was frustrated with the FBO!

 

[Dave Siciliano]

True... But how does temperature affect this? Oil is thicker and flows slower when it's cold, but it's still getting pumped and engines would still lack much lubrication when they're first being started even when it's warm.

Does anyone on the board have a pre-oiler in their plane? Any opinions on those?

Kent:

Read the link to the Mike Busch article I posted above to AvWeb; he describes what happens pretty thoroughly.

Dave

 

[Joe B]

That is exactly what Lycoming says to do. When I get time tonight I'll try to find it.

The Lycoming Operator's Manual for the O-540 and IO-540 series says "Engine is warm enough for take-off when the throttle can be opened without the engine faltering." It doesn't say anything about minimum oil temperature. I went through the Lyc Flyer reprints and didn't find any advice pertinent to this question there, either.

TCM has a different take on it. In their "Tips on Engine Care" they caution not to open the throttle above 1700 RPM until the oil temperature hits 75°F, and not to apply full power until the oil reaches 100°F and oil pressure doesn't exceed 60psi at 2500RPM.

Lyc, apparently, follows the Alfred E. Neumann approach to engine management.

Regards,
Joe