Frontier Pilots Ready To Walk

Kritchlow said:
Don’t want to be seen as a victim, and yes it was my choice. That said, it’s also the Frontier Pilots choice weather or not to strike. You started imposing your views on it.
My views are I will stand with the Frontier Pilots.
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That's one of the characteristics of a public forum. We get to state our views.
 
BTW, I hate Frontier. Everytime I have booked a flight they change the times. Drastically.

Scheduled ONT to DEN leaving at 5:33 arriving at 8:51pm.
Return Leaving DEN to ONT 11:21am arriving 12:42pm

Days before the flight they changed it to:
ONT to DEN leaving at 5:33AM! arriving at 8:48AM!
DEN to ONT 10:05PM! arriving 11:27PM!

Everytime I fly they change the times. I won't book anymore.
 
Kritchlow said:
I will briefly try to illustrate the problem. Let’s say the airline has 10,000 pilots. They are opening two new crew bases and closing one. They are getting 777s for the first time, but getting rid of their 767s.
300 pilots want to stay a senior FO for schedule, while 1000 want to move to the new crew base for the 777. 2000 are displaced from their base, and 1/2 of them want to go fly the 737 in the new base.... on, and on, and on....

How is that jungle sorted out? The only way is by a seniority system. It’s figured out with the push of a button.
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Ok, so use a seniority system when it comes to such things, what's your point? That would be a driving force behind wanting to stick with one airline versus jumping ship all of the time. It doesn't mean that a union is needed to address that issue. If I'm running an airline, and I needed to do what you proposed I'd simply have everyone put in their bids (just like they do now). We'll accommodate everyone starting with highest tenure and work downward from there. If you don't want to move to the new base, but all of the senior FO positions are taken by existing FOs or people who had more seniority and got an open FO spot, guess what? You get two options: move to the new base, find another job.
 
Half Fast said:
That's your choice. It may be your best choice today. You probably had more options 25 years ago. Weigh all pros and cons and make your decision, but once you've decided live with your choice knowing that it was yours to make.

It seems to me that so many of these pilots want to be seen as victims. They are not. They are smart, educated people who entered a career of their own choosing, eyes wide open, knowing the historical issues. And no one is forcing them to stay in the industry.
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No one wants to be portrayed or is portraying themselves as victims. You're implying it though. Frontier pilots are trying to improve their working conditions, and yes, most likely compensation. Nothing wrong with that. You're on the management side so we know where you're coming from.

Many airline pilots have a business or another thing outside of flying. Many realize what a lost of their medical would mean, and plan for it, should it happen.
 
Half Fast said:
That's one of the characteristics of a public forum. We get to state our views.
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Indeed, but you seemed to be calling others wrong for also having their views.

Truly, I’m not much of a union guy. That said, in aviation a union is absolutely essential. That’s why 98% of airlines are unionized.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Ok, so use a seniority system when it comes to such things, what's your point? That would be a driving force behind wanting to stick with one airline versus jumping ship all of the time. It doesn't mean that a union is needed to address that issue. If I'm running an airline, and I needed to do what you proposed I'd simply have everyone put in their bids (just like they do now). We'll accommodate everyone starting with highest tenure and work downward from there. If you don't want to move to the new base, but all of the senior FO positions are taken by existing FOs or people who had more seniority and got an open FO spot, guess what? You get two options: move to the new base, find another job.
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So I think you’re saying a seniority system is okay, but no need for a union..??

Unions are essential in aviation from a safety standpoint. Pilots need protection from being forced to fly when they’re tired, when the airplane is broke, when the weather is not right, etc.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
BTW, I hate Frontier. Everytime I have booked a flight they change the times. Drastically.

Scheduled ONT to DEN leaving at 5:33 arriving at 8:51pm.
Return Leaving DEN to ONT 11:21am arriving 12:42pm

Days before the flight they changed it to:
ONT to DEN leaving at 5:33AM! arriving at 8:48AM!
DEN to ONT 10:05PM! arriving 11:27PM!

Everytime I fly they change the times. I won't book anymore.
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Irrelevant to the discussion.
 
These threads are usually borderline depressing. Typical ****ing match between those who fly for a living and those who don't.
 
CC268 said:
These threads are usually borderline depressing. Typical ****ing match between those who fly for a living and those who don't.
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Rofl. Such a cynic!
FYI, I have been an IT/Payments consultant in a dozen plus industries. Each industry always thinks they are different or unique in some way. So far, I have yet to find one that really is unique.

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
mscard88 said:
Irrelevant to the discussion.
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Well if my flights are being changed because Frontier is too cheap to raise their pilots pay so they don;t have enough pilots I's say it was relevant.
 
Lindberg said:
Maybe it's different at different airlines, but I understand that with the proper seniority a pilot can bid for a route with an aircraft he isn't qualified on and then just sit until the next training opportunity.
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No. You can't bid another aircraft or seat unless the airline has opened a bid. They don't open a bid if they don't have the training slots available that the bid would require. You might put in a standing bid for the new airplane/seat you want but you stay in your current aircraft/seat until your new qualification course starts.

Last year I wanted to transfer from NYC to ORD staying in my current aircraft/seat. I put in my bid in February but there were no vacancies in my aircraft/seat in ORD even though there were close to 100 pilots junior to me in the same aircraft/seat in ORD. My bid wasn't activated until December.

I think what you're confusing is a case where an airline decides to retire a large number of airplanes. This happened shortly after 9/11 when airlines parked large numbers of aircraft. Many retired entire fleets (B727) almost overnight. If the airline chooses to stop flying the airplanes, the pilots who are qualified on those airplanes can't fly until the airline retrains them on another airplane that the airline is still flying. Seniority has nothing to do with it. It's an airline decision to make the fleet changes faster than their training department can retrain the displaced pilots.

This conversation has gone far afield. You will be hard pressed to find any significant resistance to the seniority system within the airlines. That's true of the pilots and it's true of management. The system works well in this industry. None of us are trying to tell people outside of our industry that they should adopt a seniority system in I.T., Engineering, etc. and many of us would appreciate the same consideration.
 
Half Fast said:
  • All airline pilots are just one medical away from unemployment. Any professional pilot's career can end overnight. Pilots always have alternates in a flight plan; shouldn't they have sense enough to have alternates in a career plan, too?
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and u are just 1 medical issue away from.. then?
 
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tspear said:
Rofl. Such a cynic!
FYI, I have been an IT/Payments consultant in a dozen plus industries. Each industry always thinks they are different or unique in some way. So far, I have yet to find one that really is unique.

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
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Not entirely sure what you mean but I agree with your last two sentences for the most part.
 
CC268 said:
Not entirely sure what you mean but I agree with your last two sentences for the most part.
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****ing match.....

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
When you have golden handcuffs on it is either quit and take a huge income cut it is stay and live with it, and those older pilots are not going anywhere unless they are willing to give up the income they have, it might not be on par with other carriers but they they are still handcuffed to where they are, maybe quit whining and be happy with what you have, instead of what you don't have, your golden handcuffs might not be as shiny as other carrier pilots but still golden.
 
Half Fast said:
...Trying to change industry norms with a strike is about as practical in the long run as trying to boil the ocean with a Bic lighter....
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If anyone said that Frontier pilots are expecting to "change industry norms" with a single strike at a single carrier, I must have missed it. I have no doubt, however that union representation in general has affected industry norms, and in no small way.
 
strangebird said:
When you have golden handcuffs on it is either quit and take a huge income cut it is stay and live with it, and those older pilots are not going anywhere unless they are willing to give up the income they have, it might not be on par with other carriers but they they are still handcuffed to where they are, maybe quit whining and be happy with what you have, instead of what you don't have, your golden handcuffs might not be as shiny as other carrier pilots but still golden.
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You know of not what you speak.

Your first half was looking promising however.
 
I would not enjoy having my pay determined by a committee negotiating on my behalf, having it based on the productivity of the whole. YMMV of course.
 
@Kritchlow . I don't any personal experience with airlines or unions. But while I understand your particular predicament and desire to stay and fight for better wages, I don't understand your defense of the system (hire date seniority) that pretty much put you in that predicament.

This system is basically a protectionism from other qualified persons entering your company and getting fair pay. This is great when your company is high and mighty with good pay, but it works completely against you if you are in a crappy company.
 
Palmpilot said:
If anyone said that Frontier pilots are expecting to "change industry norms" with a single strike at a single carrier, I must have missed it.
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Frontier pilots have been left behind by industry norms. They are trying to catch back up to them.

Cluemeister said:
I would not enjoy having my pay determined by a committee negotiating on my behalf, having it based on the productivity of the whole.
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So do you pay the Captain more who refuses an airplane with multiple MEL deferrals or the one who takes the (legal) airplane without question? Do you pay more for insisting on more fuel than legally required or more for routinely accepting the minimum? Do you pay more to the guy who's decisions take better care of the customers (running the APU in hot weather) or the one who saves the company the most money by not running it? Sometimes the better pilot is the one who makes the unpopular decisions. How do you prevent that from being 'punished'? How do you prevent the compensation system from putting pressure to make the "popular" decision?

These are the kinds of issues that make us very reluctant to accept compensation and promotion based on "performance". Who defines performance and how do you quantify it fairly and objectively?

Our pay is driven by productivity. We are paid hourly (production) and the airplane types that are more productive (more seat-miles produced per paid hour) pay a higher rate. I significantly increased my income in July and August by picking up a lot of extra flying. I was more productive; they paid me more. Staffing is relatively tight in the summer months, because the airline doesn't want to carry too much excess during the slower months, so a lot of additional flying is available.
 
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genna said:
@Kritchlow . I don't any personal experience with airlines or unions. But while I understand your particular predicament and desire to stay and fight for better wages, I don't understand your defense of the system (hire date seniority) that pretty much put you in that predicament.

This system is basically a protectionism from other qualified persons entering your company and getting fair pay. This is great when your company is high and mighty with good pay, but it works completely against you if you are in a crappy company.
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Well it only works against you until the next contract. Then it’s up to you, and your team to fight to improve your status.
Perhaps I’m not understanding.
 
Seniority systems work best for the employees who are the least competent, and vice versa.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Managements come and go. Some are good, some are bad. And the employees are left to deal with the fallout of the bad ones.
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ktup-flyer said:
Cough cough Smisek
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As a passenger I don't miss his changes that I will like. I didn't like any of them. I understand UA employees weren't fond of him, either.

Busflyer said:
I heard good things about the original Frontier. Not so much this one.
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I rode that airline once and can't complain about the service. The new one, on the other hand, is nothing like the old one.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well it only works against you until the next contract. Then it’s up to you, and your team to fight to improve your status.
Perhaps I’m not understanding.
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Yes, you are stuck and fighting is your only option. And there’s little insensitive for company to pay market rates. Only enough to keep you on the leash(I.e. just a enough more than year 1 pilot elsewhere). Without this, you could just take your experience elsewhere and immediately get paid more.

In my industry, the fastest way to get more money is to find a new job.
 
Larry in TN said:
These are the kinds of issues that make us very reluctant to accept compensation and promotion based on "performance". Who defines performance and how do you quantify it fairly and objectively?
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Like I said, YMMV. I will take my chances on compensation being judged on individual performance, not as a group.
 
Cluemeister said:
Like I said, YMMV. I will take my chances on compensation being judged on individual performance, not as a group.
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I take it you’re not an airline pilot? Doing whatever other job it is that you do, yes, YMMV, but, it does NOT work like that for an airline pilot. Larry nailed it.
 
Kritchlow said:
Truly, I’m not much of a union guy. That said, in aviation a union is absolutely essential. That’s why 98% of airlines are unionized.
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the numbers & facts in this field tells the tale, end of story, pro union or not, it is what it is

all else is irrelevant chit chat & no point going there,

if there is/was a better way, it would be evident
 
vman said:
the numbers & facts in this field tells the tale, end of story, pro union or not, it is what it is

all else is irrelevant chit chat & no point going there,

if there is/was a better way, it would be evident
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Exactly.
 
Larry in TN said:
So do you pay the Captain more who refuses an airplane with multiple MEL deferrals or the one who takes the (legal) airplane without question? Do you pay more for insisting on more fuel than legally required or more for routinely accepting the minimum? Do you pay more to the guy who's decisions take better care of the customers (running the APU in hot weather) or the one who saves the company the most money by not running it? Sometimes the better pilot is the one who makes the unpopular decisions. How do you prevent that from being 'punished'? How do you prevent the compensation system from putting pressure to make the "popular" decision?
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The better employee is the one who follows the rules. A good employer will empower its employees to use some discretion, but it's the airline's plane, fuel, and passengers. Yes, if a pilot refuses to fly a legal airplane, he should probably be penalized.
 
Lindberg said:
Yes, if a pilot refuses to fly a legal airplane, he should probably be penalized.
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Then why does my Flight Operations Manual have a specific procedure for refusing an otherwise legal airplane including a maintenance write-up procedure which ensures subsequent crews will be able to see that the airplane was refused and why?
 
Cluemeister said:
I would not enjoy having my pay determined by a committee negotiating on my behalf, having it based on the productivity of the whole. YMMV of course.
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Well there are two sides to that coin. While I realize everyone on this forum makes 7 figures a year and their airplane hobbies are just the rounding errors on their yearly incomes, the professional pilots do make an ok living. I doubt there are many pilots at my joint making less than six figures with a lot of them making 300 or more a year. That’s done through the union. If you worked for an airline you would understand the fallacy of trying to tailor individual pay to individual performance.
 
Lindberg said:
The better employee is the one who follows the rules. A good employer will empower its employees to use some discretion, but it's the airline's plane, fuel, and passengers. Yes, if a pilot refuses to fly a legal airplane, he should probably be penalized.
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A legal plane or a safe plane? I refused a legal plane a few weeks ago. If you were like my 150 passengers you would have agreed that legal doesn’t make it safe.
 
Lindberg said:
The better employee is the one who follows the rules. A good employer will empower its employees to use some discretion, but it's the airline's plane, fuel, and passengers. Yes, if a pilot refuses to fly a legal airplane, he should probably be penalized.
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Bwahahahaha... What the company says is legal.... bwahahahaha!!!
You truly know nothing about this industry.
 
Lindberg said:
The better employee is the one who follows the rules. A good employer will empower its employees to use some discretion, but it's the airline's plane, fuel, and passengers. Yes, if a pilot refuses to fly a legal airplane, he should probably be penalized.
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Spoken like someone with zero understanding of the concept of moral hazard.
 
Cluemeister said:
I would not enjoy having my pay determined by a committee negotiating on my behalf, having it based on the productivity of the whole. YMMV of course.
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I don't know what airline collective bargaining agreements are like, but in the orchestra ones that I worked under, there was no prohibition on paying individual employees more than the contract required.
 
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