Frontier Pilots Ready To Walk

What if you strike and nobody cares?the public has a perception, Of pilots being self serving, overpaid individuals.
 
Kritchlow said:
While I respect your opinion, it’s truly an uninformed one.
I ask you respect those of our opinions that actually know what we are talking about.
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Is there some "secret" the we cannot know unless we're "in the club"? Not likely in today's world.
Frontier is a low-buck airline; one shouldn't expect much from them. Clubbing them in the head with a strike may kill them, to the benefit of exactly no one.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Is there some "secret" the we cannot know unless we're "in the club"? Not likely in today's world.
Frontier is a low-buck airline; one shouldn't expect much from them. Clubbing them in the head with a strike may kill them, to the benefit of exactly no one.
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Everyone thinks their industry is unique.

They're all wrong.

I've had three or four "careers" in different industries, one that required going back to school and getting a degree. The last change was in the same industry but onto a different track that pays significantly less and had significantly lower lifetime earning. Every change was voluntary. People don't change jobs because they don't want to. Simple as that.

In the airlines, it's worth asking where the seniority system came from, why it persists, and who it benefits most. I'm not in that industry, but I think the answer to all three questions is the same.
 
I recall when Southwest wanted to buy Frontier but the their pilots refused to mesh into the seniority list by hire date, because their 5 year Captains wanted to keep their weekends off. I thought they had lost their minds.
 
6t6 said:
I recall when Southwest wanted to buy Frontier but the their pilots refused to mesh into the seniority list by hire date, because their 5 year Captains wanted to keep their weekends off. I thought they had lost their minds.
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I believe the Frontier pilots were going to be stapled.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Is there some "secret" the we cannot know unless we're "in the club"? Not likely in today's world.
Frontier is a low-buck airline; one shouldn't expect much from them. Clubbing them in the head with a strike may kill them, to the benefit of exactly no one.
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They are profitable enough to significantly pay the pilots more and still make the owner a nice profit. That is not a recipe to fold the airline.
 
Lindberg said:
In the airlines, it's worth asking where the seniority system came from, why it persists, and who it benefits most. I'm not in that industry, but I think the answer to all three questions is the same.
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I have always wondered why the pilots unions keep requiring this. It really does a dis-service I think to the long term health of the pilots, and the airlines.

Kritchlow said:
I believe the Frontier pilots were going to be stapled.
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Translate, stapled. That is a new one one me.


Tim
 
tspear said:
I have always wondered why the pilots unions keep requiring this. It really does a dis-service I think to the long term health of the pilots, and the airlines.



Translate, stapled. That is a new one one me.


Tim
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When two airlines merge, integrating the pilot lists of each airline is a big challenge and usually very difficult. Staple occurs when pilots of airline B are attached to airline A, at the end of airline A's seniority list. This happened when American bought TWA. Not sure but I think Air Tran was stapled to SWA too. So, you can understand why the pilots of airline B wouldn't be happy with a stable.
 
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tspear said:
I have always wondered why the pilots unions keep requiring this. It really does a dis-service I think to the long term health of the pilots, and the airlines.
Tim
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You answered your own question. If they didn't keep requiring it, there wouldn't be much need for a pilot's union now would there? If you were free to jump from airline to airline while being paid based on seniority/years of experience instead of hire date, the pilot's unions wouldn't have much to do. The airlines would then operate closer to free market like most other occupations, which forces them to be competitive with other airlines in terms of compensation/benefits.
 
This wouldn’t be an issue if Frontier just bought those automated airliners that Half Fast has been working on :p
 
tspear said:
I have always wondered why the pilots unions keep requiring this. It really does a dis-service I think to the long term health of the pilots, and the airlines.



Translate, stapled. That is a new one one me.


Tim
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When one seniority list is put at the bottom of another, as if you stapled the Frontier list to the bottom of the Southwest list.
 
SoonerAviator said:
You answered your own question. If they didn't keep requiring it, there wouldn't be much need for a pilot's union now would there? If you were free to jump from airline to airline while being paid based on seniority/years of experience instead of hire date, the pilot's unions wouldn't have much to do. The airlines would then operate closer to free market like most other occupations, which forces them to be competitive with other airlines in terms of compensation/benefits.
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How would that be possible? If you jump to another carrier after 10 years, would you start in the left seat? If not, would you make more in the right seat than the 8 year captain?
 
SoonerAviator said:
You answered your own question. If they didn't keep requiring it, there wouldn't be much need for a pilot's union now would there? If you were free to jump from airline to airline while being paid based on seniority/years of experience instead of hire date, the pilot's unions wouldn't have much to do. The airlines would then operate closer to free market like most other occupations, which forces them to be competitive with other airlines in terms of compensation/benefits.
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Exactly!
 
The simple solution here is to not be a pilot and get yourself a front row seat in the ole dusty cubicle with the rest of us!
 
SoonerAviator said:
You answered your own question. If they didn't keep requiring it, there wouldn't be much need for a pilot's union now would there? If you were free to jump from airline to airline while being paid based on seniority/years of experience instead of hire date, the pilot's unions wouldn't have much to do. The airlines would then operate closer to free market like most other occupations, which forces them to be competitive with other airlines in terms of compensation/benefits.
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In many occupations, there's a large disparity in bargaining power when individual employees try to negotiate wages and working conditions with a corporation. In a free market economy, business owners are free to organize themselves into corporations, and employees are free to organize themselves into unions.
 
Kritchlow said:
How would that be possible? If you jump to another carrier after 10 years, would you start in the left seat? If not, would you make more in the right seat than the 8 year captain?
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What do you mean? I'm a controller/financial analyst. If I jump to another company and I've got 20 years of experience and the other guy has 12 years, there's no reason that I shouldn't make as much or more money than him. You are paid for experience/certifications/etc., not because you've been with the company for longer. Tenure for most occupations often only dictates number of paid vacation days and maybe promotion considerations. So, in the case of the airlines, if a guy has been a Captain flying 737s for United going on 10 years, he should be able to walk over to SWA/DAL/AAL etc and jump in the same spot without too much trouble. No need to get bumped to right seat just because you changed companies. You're flying the same aircraft and have the same credentials as all the other guys in the left seat.
 
Palmpilot said:
In many occupations, there's a large disparity in bargaining power when individual employees try to negotiate wages and working conditions with a corporation. In a free market economy, business owners are free to organize themselves into corporations, and employees are free to organize themselves into unions.
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Did anyone (including myself argue otherwise)? I understand fully what unions are for, and how they function. I also understand when they can be beneficial or harmful to an industry. I didn't argue anyone's right to organize into a union. I only said that unions actions are often self-serving, and no union boss will work to dissolve his own union or find ways to eliminate their necessity in the workplace.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Did anyone (including myself argue otherwise)? I understand fully what unions are for, and how they function. I also understand when they can be beneficial or harmful to an industry. I didn't argue anyone's right to organize into a union. I only said that unions actions are often self-serving, and no union boss will work to dissolve his own union or find ways to eliminate their necessity in the workplace.
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It sounded like an argument against the existence of unions. So does this:

"I only said that unions actions are often self-serving, and no union boss will work to dissolve his own union or find ways to eliminate their necessity in the workplace."​
 
SoonerAviator said:
What do you mean? I'm a controller/financial analyst. If I jump to another company and I've got 20 years of experience and the other guy has 12 years, there's no reason that I shouldn't make as much or more money than him. You are paid for experience/certifications/etc., not because you've been with the company for longer. Tenure for most occupations often only dictates number of paid vacation days and maybe promotion considerations. So, in the case of the airlines, if a guy has been a Captain flying 737s for United going on 10 years, he should be able to walk over to SWA/DAL/AAL etc and jump in the same spot without too much trouble. No need to get bumped to right seat just because you changed companies. You're flying the same aircraft and have the same credentials as all the other guys in the left seat.
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Okay, so how do you handle upgrades, crew bases, schedules, and furloughs?
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm an engineer too (retired), and it seems to me that it's a lot easier for an engineer to change jobs than is the case for many other lines of work, and a lot easier to do so without a pay cut. It really doesn't make sense to extrapolate experience in our profession to other lines of work for which the parameters are different. It also doesn't make sense to insist that that people in union jobs ignore the options that union representation provides. I have also worked as a musician, and comparing my two lines of work has made it crystal clear to me the differences between jobs in which union representation is needed and those in which it is not. Furthermore, I have found that the fact that union representation is necessary in some professions does NOT mean that one cannot enjoy that line of work.
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Yes, an engineering degree is versatile, and the problem solving skills one learns can be applied in many fields. I've also earned my living in music, and having seen that world is one reason I'm now an engineer and only play music as a hobby.

I'll just mention a few things:
  • All airline pilots have college degrees. If they didn't get that degree in something that can put food on the table they made a serious mistake.
  • All airline pilots are just one medical away from unemployment. Any professional pilot's career can end overnight. Pilots always have alternates in a flight plan; shouldn't they have sense enough to have alternates in a career plan, too?
  • This is nothing new. Pilots have been complaining about pay, schedules, and seniority as long as there have been airlines. Read Fate Is The Hunter and you'll see that Gann was complaining about the same things back in the late '30s. Trying to change industry norms with a strike is about as practical in the long run as trying to boil the ocean with a Bic lighter. Pilots know what the industry is like when they enter the career, and if they don't then they certainly do know after a year or two. When you find yourself in a hole, you should stop digging and climb out, not dig it deeper for the next 25 years.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, an engineering degree is versatile, and the problem solving skills one learns can be applied in many fields. I've also earned my living in music, and having seen that world is one reason I'm now an engineer and only play music as a hobby.

I'll just mention a few things:
  • All airline pilots have college degrees. If they didn't get that degree in something that can put food on the table they made a serious mistake.
  • All airline pilots are just one medical away from unemployment. Any professional pilot's career can end overnight. Pilots always have alternates in a flight plan; shouldn't they have sense enough to have alternates in a career plan, too?
  • This is nothing new. Pilots have been complaining about pay, schedules, and seniority as long as there have been airlines. Read Fate Is The Hunter and you'll see that Gann was complaining about the same things back in the late '30s. Trying to change industry norms with a strike is about as practical in the long run as trying to boil the ocean with a Bic lighter. Pilots know what the industry is like when they enter the career, and if they don't then they certainly do know after a year or two. When you find yourself in a hole, you should stop digging and climb out, not dig it deeper for the next 25 years.
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— Not all airline pilots have degrees.

— Most carriers have loss of license insurance for medical loss.

— Pilot groups agree a union is needed by and large. I couldn’t imagine a major carrier without one. Just think.... call maintenance with an issue on the AC. You are told to fly it or you’re fired. That’s why we have unions in aviation.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay, so how do you handle upgrades, crew bases, schedules, and furloughs?
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The company tells you where to go and when to show up. You show up then and there or you find another job. All these "problems" are solved. You don't "bid reserve" or promote yourself to a position you aren't qualified for and get paid to sit. Like I said, everyone thinks their industry is unique. It isn't.
 
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Lindberg said:
The company tells you where to go and when to show up. You show up then and there or you find another job. All these "problems" are solved. You don't "bid reserve" or promote yourself to a position you aren't qualified for and get paid to sit. Like I said, everyone thinks they're industry is unique. It isn't.
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Who do they tell? There are periodically involuntary displacements, but they are done in inverse seniority. How would you handle that?
Your second thing about bidding reserve or what you’re qualified for makes no sense. No clue what you are trying to say there.
 
Kritchlow said:
— Not all airline pilots have degrees.
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If one doesn't, whose fault is that?

You're making excuses for why a disgruntled pilot shouldn't walk away and do something else with his life. I'm arguing for a disgruntled pilot to accept personal responsibility for his own fate.
 
Half Fast said:
If one doesn't, whose fault is that?

You're making excuses for why a disgruntled pilot shouldn't walk away and do something else with his life. I'm arguing for a disgruntled pilot to accept personal responsibility for his own fate.
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In a way you’re correct. I have spent my entire life in aviation. I’m now in my mid 50’s. I will do everything I can to keep my job and increase my wage vs try to start over in another field at this point in my life.
That seems like a normal course of action to me.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay, so how do you handle upgrades, crew bases, schedules, and furloughs?
Click to expand...

To put it simply: as needed. If a guy was in line to upgrade, but someone came over from another airline who was qualified and took that open spot, then I suppose he has to wait for another spot to open up. It's no different than if I was next in line for CFO and they decided to hire someone else for the position. You don't get promoted/upgraded just because you've been there X number of years. You wait for a spot to open up or you find an open spot at another airline where you can upgrade. It's not rocket science.

Schedules? I would assume that can be a seniority-based item that the new hire goes to the bottom of the pack according to his pay grade/position. So if a guy gets hired on as a 737 FO, he gets least-priority over all other existing 737 FOs. Not sure why this would be a big deal, but I can't speak to the intricacies of crew scheduling, so I won't pretend to have answers to such questions. Same goes for crew bases and furloughs. When you sign the employment offer, you agree to the location of the crew base and pecking order for requests.

Furloughs should be handled in whatever method makes the most sense for the airline. Furloughs and layoffs happen in just about every industry, and no one needs a union to tell a company how to do it. Some do last-in, first-out (seniority-based). Some cull out the lower performers first, then go by seniority if necessary. Some cut regionally depending on local demand.
 
tspear said:
I have always wondered why the pilots unions keep requiring this. It really does a dis-service I think to the long term health of the pilots, and the airlines.
Click to expand...
Seniority is used at airlines with, or without, unions because it has fewer problems than any other system. Skywest is a very large US regional airline that has been no-union for decades. Until relatively recently, JetBlue was non-union. Both airlines have used seniority systems for decades.

I'm one of a bit over 12,500 pilots at my airline. I've never met my direct supervisor. When I start a new trip (up to four-days in length) I've rarely ever met the Captain before. When I go to training, or to check rides, I'm taught and evaluated by instructors and evaluators whom I've never met before.

To the company, I am an interchangeable part. I am one of over a thousand employees who is qualified to do my specific job. The company has no desire, nor motivation, to attempt to quantify the differences between each of the 12,500+ of us to determine who should get promotions or pay increases. It would require hundreds of additional managers, incur substantial cost, and give them almost no benefit in return. We would want controls to ensure that the evaluations were quantitative, fair, and could not be used inappropriately.
 
Kritchlow said:
In a way you’re correct. I have spent my entire life in aviation. I’m now in my mid 50’s. I will do everything I can to keep my job and increase my wage vs try to start over in another field at this point in my life.
That seems like a normal course of action to me.
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That's your choice. It may be your best choice today. You probably had more options 25 years ago. Weigh all pros and cons and make your decision, but once you've decided live with your choice knowing that it was yours to make.

It seems to me that so many of these pilots want to be seen as victims. They are not. They are smart, educated people who entered a career of their own choosing, eyes wide open, knowing the historical issues. And no one is forcing them to stay in the industry.
 
Kritchlow said:
Who do they tell? There are periodically involuntary displacements, but they are done in inverse seniority. How would you handle that?
Your second thing about bidding reserve or what you’re qualified for makes no sense. No clue what you are trying to say there.
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Have you never had a job outside the airline industry? How do they schedule doctors in emergency rooms?
 
After looking at that website my boss sucks.

I don't get a 401k
I don't get profit sharing
I don't get employer matching
I don't get those health benefits, my family of 3 coverage is over $1,100 a month
 
SoonerAviator said:
To put it simply: as needed. If a guy was in line to upgrade, but someone came over from another airline who was qualified and took that open spot, then I suppose he has to wait for another spot to open up. It's no different than if I was next in line for CFO and they decided to hire someone else for the position. You don't get promoted/upgraded just because you've been there X number of years. You wait for a spot to open up or you find an open spot at another airline where you can upgrade. It's not rocket science.

Schedules? I would assume that can be a seniority-based item that the new hire goes to the bottom of the pack according to his pay grade/position. So if a guy gets hired on as a 737 FO, he gets least-priority over all other existing 737 FOs. Not sure why this would be a big deal, but I can't speak to the intricacies of crew scheduling, so I won't pretend to have answers to such questions. Same goes for crew bases and furloughs. When you sign the employment offer, you agree to the location of the crew base and pecking order for requests.

Furloughs should be handled in whatever method makes the most sense for the airline. Furloughs and layoffs happen in just about every industry, and no one needs a union to tell a company how to do it. Some do last-in, first-out (seniority-based). Some cull out the lower performers first, then go by seniority if necessary. Some cut regionally depending on local demand.
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I will briefly try to illustrate the problem. Let’s say the airline has 10,000 pilots. They are opening two new crew bases and closing one. They are getting 777s for the first time, but getting rid of their 767s.
300 pilots want to stay a senior FO for schedule, while 1000 want to move to the new crew base for the 777. 2000 are displaced from their base, and 1/2 of them want to go fly the 737 in the new base.... on, and on, and on....

How is that jungle sorted out? The only way is by a seniority system. It’s figured out with the push of a button.
 
Maybe it's different at different airlines, but I understand that with the proper seniority a pilot can bid for a route with an aircraft he isn't qualified on and then just sit until the next training opportunity.
 
Half Fast said:
That's your choice. It may be your best choice today. You probably had more options 25 years ago. Weigh all pros and cons and make your decision, but once you've decided live with your choice knowing that it was yours to make.

It seems to me that so many of these pilots want to be seen as victims. They are not. They are smart, educated people who entered a career of their own choosing, eyes wide open, knowing the historical issues. And no one is forcing them to stay in the industry.
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Don’t want to be seen as a victim, and yes it was my choice. That said, it’s also the Frontier Pilots choice weather or not to strike. You started imposing your views on it.
My views are I will stand with the Frontier Pilots.
 
Palmpilot said:
It sounded like an argument against the existence of unions. So does this:

"I only said that unions actions are often self-serving, and no union boss will work to dissolve his own union or find ways to eliminate their necessity in the workplace."​
Click to expand...

You seem to have glossed over my use of the word "often". I didn't say it was always the case. Unions have their place and time. Example: unions played a huge part in the increase in OSHA and workers rights during the industrial revolution when much of the regulatory environment didn't exist. However, most of what the unions did back then has been written in to US employment law, so their protections are much more situational now. The level as back-assward rules that many unions negotiate is a large contributor of waste. Things like needing to have a filing cabinet moved from one wall of the office to another. It's often stipulated that a union-member be utilized to move that cabinet, even if I'm fully capable of doing it myself. The loss in efficiency and cost of bureaucracy is stunning for many of those matters. Tracking/recording/addressing union grievances is often a not-inconsequential cost to a company as well.

I feel the same way about Sarbanes-Oxley regulation, especially post-2012. The amount of ridiculous documentation requirements, audits, and oversight costs companies (and thus shareholders) much more money than the occasional Enron does. The best part is, it doesn't "prevent" the bad stuff from happening, it just documents that someone did it or pencil-whipped an approval for it, lol.
 
Lindberg said:
Have you never had a job outside the airline industry? How do they schedule doctors in emergency rooms?
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I don’t know, but I do know you’re talking apples & oranges on that one.
 
Lindberg said:
Maybe it's different at different airlines, but I understand that with the proper seniority a pilot can bid for a route with an aircraft he isn't qualified on and then just sit until the next training opportunity.
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Nope. One has to be trained and certified (Type Rating) before they can bid a line of flying.
 
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Lindberg said:
Maybe it's different at different airlines, but I understand that with the proper seniority a pilot can bid for a route with an aircraft he isn't qualified on and then just sit until the next training opportunity.
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I never heard of that.
 
Larry in TN said:
Seniority is used at airlines with, or without, unions because it has fewer problems than any other system. Skywest is a very large US regional airline that has been no-union for decades. Until relatively recently, JetBlue was non-union. Both airlines have used seniority systems for decades.

I'm one of a bit over 12,500 pilots at my airline. I've never met my direct supervisor. When I start a new trip (up to four-days in length) I've rarely ever met the Captain before. When I go to training, or to check rides, I'm taught and evaluated by instructors and evaluators whom I've never met before.

To the company, I am an interchangeable part. I am one of over a thousand employees who is qualified to do my specific job. The company has no desire, nor motivation, to attempt to quantify the differences between each of the 12,500+ of us to determine who should get promotions or pay increases. It would require hundreds of additional managers, incur substantial cost, and give them almost no benefit in return. We would want controls to ensure that the evaluations were quantitative, fair, and could not be used inappropriately.
Click to expand...
Seniority does not have to be determined based on employment date to solve those issues. Use other bad metrics which equate rather well. Total hours, hours in type, hours in position....
Seniority based on hire date is way for those at the top to screw the ones behind with the feeling that they have paid their dues. So it is the next guys turn. This was the model at the large accounting firms in the 80s and 90s. It also is one of the reasons they have lost share to small and mid size companies.
Airlines are protected by the massive capital requirements.

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
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