Front Range Spaceport

Colorado also has (like many States) a significant tax credit for "aircraft manufacturing" employers.

I was reminded of it when I was asked if I employed anyone who manufacturers airplanes while doing my taxes yesterday.

Made me think about how I could make money off all those RV builders at EAA 301. Hahaha.
 
If its a "spaceport" will my hangar be less than $300/month if I move back?

:rolleyes:
 
I should declare my back yard a space port. It's as likely to receive landings of extraterrestrial craft as anywhere else in the lower 48.
 
Well, as someone who has spent a large part of the last year working on commercial Spaceport planning documents, I have to chime in and remind you that the infrastructure plans take years to get into a funding cycle, then there is design and construction. Commercial space is right now at the Wright brothers stage. The changes in the field, when they come, will be remarkable. The point is to have the infrastructure improvements planned so that when they're needed to accommodate some yet-to-be-built vehicle there will be a place to use it.

The whole point is to migrate long distance flying into a space operation to save time -- and maybe fuel. If you only have a couple of spaceports, then what's the point?
 
It's KFTG's proximity to DIA that makes it a non-starter for just about anything, really.
 
It's KFTG's proximity to DIA that makes it a non-starter for just about anything, really.

Disclaimer: I'm based at FTG.

Reality check: Yes, this is 20+ years in the future. It costs nothing for the Gov & others to chime in and say "That's a Great Idea!".
Next, it's not rocket launches, it's Virgin Galatic/Rutan/whatever type of
winged aircraft/spacecraft will be around. Having DIA there is really irrelevant, since T/O will be on 8 or 35.

Personal Opinion: I can't stop laughing at the idea. Neither can anyone else I know.
 
Maybe I'm the only Denver based pilot who is actually somewhat optimistic about this. Aviation took huge unimaginable leaps forward in the first 100 years, and I'm sure there will be leaps we haven't even thought of in the next 100. There are some details to work out for sure, but it doesn't hurt FTG to pursue the idea.


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It makes more sense to turn the 16,000 ft runway at Denver into the spaceport. DIA already has the infrastructure, the parking lots, etc. By the time Virgin Galactic is up and running scheduled service, DIA will be the logical choice. And yes, there's plenty of empty space out there, and plenty of room to build whatever support facilities are needed.
 
Maybe I'm the only Denver based pilot who is actually somewhat optimistic about this. Aviation took huge unimaginable leaps forward in the first 100 years, and I'm sure there will be leaps we haven't even thought of in the next 100. There are some details to work out for sure, but it doesn't hurt FTG to pursue the idea.

I might be jaded about KFTG. A great non-profit club was run out of the place by a for-profit in the 90s...

Then they said they were going to steal the cargo traffic from the not-yet-completed DIA, and got grants/loans to build the giant runway-to-nowhere project that 35 became... and a Contract Tower because of the proximity to DIA. (Certainly not enough flight operations to justify it.)

They claimed the Air Guard was going to go out there at one point...

Nothing ever seems to take root in that place. It'd be a great community (and is) for owner/operators... but attempts at doing business out there seem permanently jinxed.

I think you'd have a better shot at re-opening Ft. Collins - Downtown and turning it into a Spaceport than it ever really happening at KFTG. But that's just one guy's opinion, and we all know what opinions are like... ;)
 
I was based at Front Range when the contract tower and the Class D cutout was installed. I remember having to "coach" the controllers the first week or so. It was kind of funny, as there really wasn't much traffic, and you could just tell they were pretty bored.

There was a few KDEN Class B airspace busts as people were used to making right turns to go north off of 26.

KFTG has a strange vibe, like the "little airport that could". I think your assessment of grandiose plans that never come to fruition is quite accurate. Is is VERY different from KAPA, or KBJC which both are more active, and closer to populated/convenient areas. While I lived practically under the pattern of KAPA, there were no hangars available, and even it the were they were twice as expensive as KFTG.
 
It makes more sense to turn the 16,000 ft runway at Denver into the spaceport. DIA already has the infrastructure, the parking lots, etc. By the time Virgin Galactic is up and running scheduled service, DIA will be the logical choice. And yes, there's plenty of empty space out there, and plenty of room to build whatever support facilities are needed.
There's so much more to it than runway. Inhabited building distances, instantaneous impact points, etc. Basically, you have to make sure that no one will get showered by debris in the case of a "major malfunction" during launch. And since you are combining fuel and concentrated oxidizer, the potential for a ground explosion is greater. You can't really operate off asphalt, it has to be concrete. You need to create and negotiate flight paths because of the incredible rate of climb through controlled airspace. There are a bunch of nuances.

Doing these spaceport analyses is expensive. They don't do them lightly. But the upside potential is huge.
 
I should declare my back yard a space port. It's as likely to receive landings of extraterrestrial craft as anywhere else in the lower 48.

Be careful what you wish for.. ET parties hard and once you let them in once the show up at all hours of the night..

<---<^>--->
 
Maybe a UAVport too.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_20295828/long-overlooked-front-range-airport-apt-spring-life

For nearly 30 years, Front Range Airport has sprawled on prairie land near the Eastern Plains town of Watkins, managing to cling to life as development dreams have been dashed.
Now, those dreams are once again at the forefront as the 4,000-acre airport's long-sought prosperity hinges on a mix of futuristic space travel, unmanned aircraft, new surrounding development and continued general-aviation services.
 
Yeah. I saw there was another new rah-rah in the Denver Post yesterday but hadn't posted it yet. They're sure trying hard.
 
Yeah. I saw there was another new rah-rah in the Denver Post yesterday but hadn't posted it yet. They're sure trying hard.

Rationale: General Aviation is getting smaller, and something needs to be done to protect the airport and continue operations for the hundreds of airplanes based there. One option is to bring in $$$ activity. The UAV/UAS/RPV is one of 3 project trying to get off the ground.

In other words - what can the airport do to protect airport employee jobs?

The UAV/UAS/RPV is more likely, and in the near future. Here's the argument for it:

The FAA is funding 6 test facilities. Each must have a tower, rather remote but near an urban area. The goal is to determine if UAV/UAS/RPV can co-exist with GA, military, helicopters and Class B. Front Range is perfectly positioned to become one of the test centers.

Argument against:
This is Attempt #15 to bring some sort of Big $$$ activity to FTG. The previous 14 attempts have failed miserably. But you'll never hear/see the airport viewing any of them as failures.

Sidenotes:
So far there has been a limited amount of funds spent to delve into the possibility. The Airport Authority is considering $100,000 for an aerospace consultant to head up the EA (environmental assessment) and other matters that must be researched. (For more details, go to the Front Range website and download the February board minutes. Loads of fun to read)

Having been in aerospace for more than (mumble mumble) years (decades?) $100K isn't even chickenfeed for what they really need. Let's start the consultant's fees at $500K and go from there.

Summary:
Call me when it happens.
 
There's so much more to it than runway. Inhabited building distances, instantaneous impact points, etc. Basically, you have to make sure that no one will get showered by debris in the case of a "major malfunction" during launch. And since you are combining fuel and concentrated oxidizer, the potential for a ground explosion is greater. You can't really operate off asphalt, it has to be concrete. You need to create and negotiate flight paths because of the incredible rate of climb through controlled airspace. There are a bunch of nuances.

Doing these spaceport analyses is expensive. They don't do them lightly. But the upside potential is huge.



East of where Front Range is located (Watkins, CO), there really isn't much there, but as you know KDEN is close by to the west. I'm just guessing here, but proximity to a Class B with a high volume, in and out might affect their chances.
 
There's so much more to it than runway. Inhabited building distances, instantaneous impact points, etc. Basically, you have to make sure that no one will get showered by debris in the case of a "major malfunction" during launch. And since you are combining fuel and concentrated oxidizer, the potential for a ground explosion is greater. You can't really operate off asphalt, it has to be concrete. You need to create and negotiate flight paths because of the incredible rate of climb through controlled airspace. There are a bunch of nuances.

Doing these spaceport analyses is expensive. They don't do them lightly. But the upside potential is huge.

Do you understand the proposal is for horizontal launch, e.g. a conventional aircraft on departure?
 
Do you understand the proposal is for horizontal launch, e.g. a conventional aircraft on departure?
He's done the same analysis for Cecil Field, so yes. Are you trying to imply that the magic of horizontal launch frees one from the need to supply the necessary paperwork to the regulatory agencies?
 
He's done the same analysis for Cecil Field, so yes. Are you trying to imply that the magic of horizontal launch frees one from the need to supply the necessary paperwork to the regulatory agencies?

I asked the question because some of his stated concerns may not be relevant to horizontal launch and/or not a significant impact on the Bravo and the surface underneath.

Ken is making some claims that are not apparent and did not support them with references so the readers can tell if they are valid.

By the way Pete, there is no magic in horizontal launch. Please keep that in mind in future communications...:wink2:
 
Are you familiar with a feller named Newton?
Very funny, now consider that suborbital dV budget is much different from orbital one: gravity losses are much higher fraction, rotation much lesser.

BTW, there's a Delta-IV sitting on the pad in Vanderberg right now, ready to fly a retrograde orbit.
 
I asked the question because some of his stated concerns may not be relevant to horizontal launch and/or not a significant impact on the Bravo and the surface underneath.

Ken is making some claims that are not apparent and did not support them with references so the readers can tell if they are valid.

By the way Pete, there is no magic in horizontal launch. Please keep that in mind in future communications...:wink2:
No, I didn't support them with facts and references, in part because I usually access this forum on my phone, and simply refuse to type any more than necessary on that little screen. The concerns I cited are part of the commercial spaceport licensing process, as dictated by the FAA's office of commercial space, aka FAA/AST. Just because they may not appear relevant to horizontal launch or Bravo airspace does not mean they are not factors.

Commercial space licensing is a very, very complex undertaking. The FAA is understandably being cautious, but you also have to remember that a space vehicle is loaded with fuel and oxidizer, just like a rocket. The fact that it takes off horizontally rather than vertically does not change the possibility of explosion, and in some ways complicates it. Fortunately the commercial vehicles under development now tend to use fuels that are on the "kinder" side of the equation.

Then when you add in the frequency of launches the operators have to make in order to have it be a commercially viable process, that complicates such things as airspace. FAA certainly is not receptive to the idea of instituting a Shuttle-like TFR every time Virgin Galactic takes a handful of tourists on a joy ride.
 
Yes. I am a spaceport licensing consultant. I know exactly what they want and what they face.

Heh heh. I know you're serious Ken, but I had to chuckle.

"I AM A CONSULTANT!" often gets that reaction from me, especially in IT.

"Ahh, unemployed between jobs again, eh?"

Sorry just had to say that.

Joking aside... Is there a license or oversight/professional organization for spaceport licensing consultants? It seems like its way too early and Wild West-ish still for anything like that.

I'm Private Astronaut. It's not defined what training is required, so I'm claiming it now so I can be grandfathered.

FAA acting like they have the answers is entertaining too. We'll see how many people die and what Regs get written in blood from this new industry over time...

Someday it'll be so safe the Chief Counsel will have to make up stuff. That's usually the sign they've run out of really dangerous stuff to Regulate. ;)

We ain't there yet. :)
 
Heh heh. I know you're serious Ken, but I had to chuckle.

"I AM A CONSULTANT!" often gets that reaction from me, especially in IT.

"Ahh, unemployed between jobs again, eh?"

Sorry just had to say that.

Joking aside... Is there a license or oversight/professional organization for spaceport licensing consultants? It seems like its way too early and Wild West-ish still for anything like that.
Gainfully employed at one of the premiere aviation consulting companies in the nation. 750 employees. Office right on the corner. Hardly unemployed.

While there is no licensing for spaceport consultants per se, FAA funding requirements are that consultants must be competitively selected based on qualifications. My company has done most of the launch facilities at the Cape and has worked/is working on a number of other license applications.
 
No, I didn't support them with facts and references, in part because I usually access this forum on my phone, and simply refuse to type any more than necessary on that little screen. The concerns I cited are part of the commercial spaceport licensing process, as dictated by the FAA's office of commercial space, aka FAA/AST. Just because they may not appear relevant to horizontal launch or Bravo airspace does not mean they are not factors.

Commercial space licensing is a very, very complex undertaking. The FAA is understandably being cautious, but you also have to remember that a space vehicle is loaded with fuel and oxidizer, just like a rocket. The fact that it takes off horizontally rather than vertically does not change the possibility of explosion, and in some ways complicates it. Fortunately the commercial vehicles under development now tend to use fuels that are on the "kinder" side of the equation.

Then when you add in the frequency of launches the operators have to make in order to have it be a commercially viable process, that complicates such things as airspace. FAA certainly is not receptive to the idea of instituting a Shuttle-like TFR every time Virgin Galactic takes a handful of tourists on a joy ride.

Hmmm, methinks you're part of the problem. "very, very"? I hope your English teach just rolled over.

The currently demonstrated horizontal launch craft has near zero chance of rapid combustion/spontaneous disassembly while near the ground.

Also, remember that when breaking new ground with regulatory bodies it is the consultant's job to negotiate with those bodies, not just submit.
 
The currently demonstrated horizontal launch craft has near zero chance of rapid combustion/spontaneous disassembly while near the ground.
Ever heard about spontaneous disassembly at Scaled that killed 3 in 2007? I am wondering what this assumption about "currently demonstrated horizontal launch craft" is based upon. The only currently demonstrated craft is SS1/WK system, which uses the same components that exploded.

Secondly, you keep discounting the need to account for IIP ground track, why is that? Why no love for Colorado farmers?
 
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Hmmm, methinks you're part of the problem. "very, very"? I hope your English teach just rolled over.

The currently demonstrated horizontal launch craft has near zero chance of rapid combustion/spontaneous disassembly while near the ground.

Also, remember that when breaking new ground with regulatory bodies it is the consultant's job to negotiate with those bodies, not just submit.

I'll let my colleagues who are part of the Commercial Space Federation's working group to develop new standards know you support their work.

As for the "rocket science" part, I suggest you do a little more homework.
 
Ever heard about spontaneous disassembly at Scaled that killed 3 in 2007? I am wondering what this assumption about "currently demonstrated horizontal launch craft" is based upon. The only currently demonstrated craft is SS1/WK system, which uses the same components that exploded.

Secondly, you keep discounting the need to account for IIP ground track, why is that? Why no love for Colorado farmers?

You know it, Pete. Then there's the issue of what would happen if a weld on a LOX tank failed while the vehicle was on an asphalt taxiway.
 
Be careful what you wish for.. ET parties hard and once you let them in once the show up at all hours of the night..

<---<^>--->

I hope you'll forgive me if I don't loose any sleep over it.
 
While there is no licensing for spaceport consultants per se, FAA funding requirements are that consultants must be competitively selected based on qualifications.

Heh. I think you just perfectly described how government cronyism works in the real world.

"We haven't set any licensing standards, but we've worked with these guys before so for the moment they meet our highest requirements for experience."

Hahaha. Pure awesome. No offense to you Ken. It's a living.
 
Heh. I think you just perfectly described how government cronyism works in the real world.

"We haven't set any licensing standards, but we've worked with these guys before so for the moment they meet our highest requirements for experience."

Hahaha. Pure awesome. No offense to you Ken. It's a living.

Well, I do take offense. I won't deny that some level of cronyism is sometimes helpful in winning work. Thats true in any industry. But after you win the work, you have to deliver. My company hasn't lasted 70 years and grown to 750 employees in 33 offices without delivering the goods.
 
Well, I do take offense. I won't deny that some level of cronyism is sometimes helpful in winning work. Thats true in any industry. But after you win the work, you have to deliver. My company hasn't lasted 70 years and grown to 750 employees in 33 offices without delivering the goods.

Ahh. I chopped the longer explanation because it was so off-topic.

There's no accountability that's real because we haven't seen the first fatalities from commercial space flight yet. The need of government to continue "certifying" spaceports and what not wont diminish when they eventually do happen. So even then, by definition it's a never-ending business. Möbius loop.

Your company has the world's experts. You goof up, the government may go with your competitor the next time. 90% of your employees would just move over to the new contracting company. Worst case. The experts in such a limited field won't be changing that quickly. You guys have the "time in the logbook" so to speak. No one can catch up or pass you without objective goals.

Best case for you, your firm may get a slap on the wrist and still get the next "certification" contract because you'd have the "new knowledge" of a "lesson learned". Or as mentioned above they might award the contract the next time around to the competitor and all the experts will just jump ship as one place lays off and the other hires to meet the needs of the contract.

And this is all assuming we are only talking about government contracts. Handshake deals and how "comfortable" a private customer feels with the brand name are more important in the private sector. They get that comfort from delivering the "goods" of course. So no insult intended at all.

Your company, or more accurately, your people at any company name will be "certifying" spaceports until I die.

The telling evidence of similar behavior was in the Boeing 787 certification video recap I posted recently. The head of the certification group listed three distinct goals. Goal one was FAA certification. Goal two was Safety. Third, I forget. Not relevant to what I noticed in the video...

The interesting part was that he split them. What's the supposed overall goal of FAA Certification? Ostensibly, Safety. Boeing saw them as separate Corporate goals. That's a huge indicator that Certification has grown out of control into something that's not really just about Safety. Its a subtle sign, but seems to match the external world of $300 LED landijg lights.

He was also very clear that Certification had top priority above Safety which was refreshingly honest and honestly a bit eerie, if you take his words at exactly face value.

This was a script he was working from, that went through who-knows how many levels of Marketing/PR and Legal vetting, so I'm not buying that no one caught the wording.

It was very clear that in his world "FAA Certification" and "Safety" weren't synonymous.

Completely different bonus plans, so to speak. Guess which one Boeing probably gave him a bonus on? People work toward the prize. His prize was tacked on to Certification deadlines, we can almost be certain.

Anyway... Certification and standards are great. Everyone should have their own... As we joke in IT. No offense meant but at the end of the day, I hope something you thought up and added to the process saves some lives. That's the goal. The rest is just paperwork and paint on the pig.

You probably will. You're a smart guy. If your firm gets kicked off a contract for a screw up, or worse, political reasons, you'll still land on your feet at the next firm unless you signed the document that missed something super-obvious that all the other rocket scientists also missed.

In economic terms, the government will always need a "supply" of certification contract firms as long as there's commercial space flight. You buys have the experience so your people will always fill the "demand" side of the equation. If you don't deliver, the name of the firm will change. The people won't.

The owners of the current firm won't even lose a moment's sleep over getting new business going doing something else. They have "relationships" (e.g. that built in chronyism...) with the right folks in the government bureaucracy. The employees will probably have to run around shuffling chairs, musical chairs style. Painful, but the music won't stop.
 
Ahh. I chopped the longer explanation because it was so off-topic.

There's no accountability that's real because we haven't seen the first fatalities from commercial space flight yet. The need of government to continue "certifying" spaceports and what not wont diminish when they eventually do happen. So even then, by definition it's a never-ending business. Möbius loop.

Your company has the world's experts. You goof up, the government may go with your competitor the next time. 90% of your employees would just move over to the new contracting company. Worst case. The experts in such a limited field won't be changing that quickly. You guys have the "time in the logbook" so to speak. No one can catch up or pass you without objective goals.

Best case for you, your firm may get a slap on the wrist and still get the next "certification" contract because you'd have the "new knowledge" of a "lesson learned".
Certification in any field sets mininum standards. I, for one, was not raised to believe that meeting a minimum is a sufficient accomplishment.
 
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