Front Range Spaceport

Is FTG really the best place for a space port?

Very close to DEN (and under its bravo airspace)...

Cold snowy winters, need lots of de-icing equipment?...



The idea sounds interesting, but I think these spaceport ideas are really the cart before the horse. Mojave makes some sense with Scaled Composites being there, good weather, etc. Who will setup at FTG, and why?
 
Call me when it happens. Let's see, what other revenue ideas have involved the area at or near FTG? Oh yeah, there was the NASCAR track, moving the National Western Stockyards, ATG's test center, a maintenance facility for Frontier,....
 
lionclaw said:
Is FTG really the best place for a space port?

Very close to DEN (and under its bravo airspace)...

Cold snowy winters, need lots of de-icing equipment?...
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Cold, snowy winters? :confused:

Drive up Rt. 70 if you want cold, and snowy. Not KFTG.

Hickenlooper is just blowing smoke. Nothing will come of this.
 
Just to continue murphey's list of things planned at FTG according to things I've read/heard: a parallel runway to 17/35, a 12 gate commercial terminal for an airline, and a hanger complex specializing in BBJ's.

It seems that those running this airport have big dreams...


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Anthony said:
Cold, snowy winters? :confused:

Drive up Rt. 70 if you want cold, and snowy. Not KFTG.

Hickenlooper is just blowing smoke. Nothing will come of this.
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FTG gets neither cold nor snowy? I'll be moving to Buckley in March, and FTG was my first choice for finding a hangar. If the winter is warm and clear of snow, I'll be one happy camper :)
 
Yeah. Snowball's chance in hell. Still waiting for the giant freight facility that got the long runway built during negotiations to force DIA to move the cargo area to the south side of DIA back before it was built. ;)
 
lionclaw said:
FTG gets neither cold nor snowy? I'll be moving to Buckley in March, and FTG was my first choice for finding a hangar. If the winter is warm and clear of snow, I'll be one happy camper :)
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Yeah, Buckley is near KFTG. I used to dodge the F-16's there. While Denver does get some snow, in general winters are pretty mild. Weather can be wacky though, but nothing like people think. Ya want snow? Go up in the mountains. It melts in Denver.
 
The "spaceport" section on the website is a real shame, riddled with typos and and rambling incoherently.
http://www.ftg-airport.com/spaceport.php

No mention of the anchor tennant, naturally. Tom Clark, of Metro Denver Economic Development Corp., mentioned mysterious out-of-state p2p companies. Very funny.
 
As compared to other space ports (Cape Canaveral and French Guyana) launching from Denver requires additional thrust and propellant due to its northern latitude. Also how they are going to cope with launch failures. Unlike Cape Canaveral where the launch trajectory is over the ocean in Denver it would be over populated areas. This can be a big risk for a failed rocket coming down over populated areas.

José
 
Piloto said:
Also how they are going to cope with launch failures. Unlike Cape Canaveral where the launch trajectory is over the ocean in Denver it would be over populated areas. This can be a big risk for a failed rocket coming down over populated areas.

José
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Have you ever looked east of KFTG? What do you see? I'll tell you. Nothin!
 
Anthony said:
Have you ever looked east of KFTG? What do you see? I'll tell you. Nothin!
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A rocket unable to achieve orbital velocity can easily crash into Chicago. Rocket engine failures after launch are not uncomon and causes the rocket to crash over 500nm from the lift-off point.

José
 
How far is Chicago from Denver? How far re NYC, Philly, D.C. etc from the Cape? Yeah there is an ocean there, so what? Things happen.
 
lionclaw said:
FTG gets neither cold nor snowy? I'll be moving to Buckley in March, and FTG was my first choice for finding a hangar. If the winter is warm and clear of snow, I'll be one happy camper :)
Click to expand...

Andy

FTG is about the only place to get a hangar with electricity (heat if you really want to pay $$$) for a reasonable amount of money. County T-hangars are about $260/mo. And the crew keeps the ramps, taxi areas and runways cleaned of snow. You get to shovel that last couple feet next to the door because the plow can't get that close.

PM me and I'll provide more details.
 
jjflys said:
Just to continue murphey's list of things planned at FTG according to things I've read/heard: a parallel runway to 17/35, a 12 gate commercial terminal for an airline, and a hanger complex specializing in BBJ's.

It seems that those running this airport have big dreams...


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Click to expand...

What is reasonable and is currently happening is a training facility with full-motion sims. Not quite as large as United's at the former Stapleton location, tho. Another very pragmatic possibility is an aircraft salvage yard. Huge amounts of land out there, FTG's "area of influence" is almost as large as DIA (KDEN for you Class B fans) with zoning that forbids any residential. The runways can & do support B737s.

Now if we could just get lights along the runways for night ops instead of the reflectors...
 
Anthony said:
How far is Chicago from Denver? How far re NYC, Philly, D.C. etc from the Cape? Yeah there is an ocean there, so what? Things happen.
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Try to tell that to the liability insurance companies that insure the giant $1billion commercial communication satellites. In order to take advantage of the Earth rotation rockets are launched toward the east. This also assures that in the event of a failure they will crash into the ocean (when launched from the east coast). In the early days of manned space capsules rescue (in an emergency) was assured by having them splash landing into the ocean rather than on a city. BTW the booster used on the shuttle were recovered on the ocean.

José
 
The race for commercial space is on! said the turtle to the snail.

How many space ports do we need? http://www.calspace.com/SSI/Welcome.html at Vandenburg AFB (launch facilities and infrastructure in place) makes sense as does Canaveral.

The New Mexico facility http://www.spaceportamerica.com/ makes less sense for rocketry but, like Mojave, seems well suited for operations like Branson's.

I guess siting is all about having operational control over the grounds.

At least they aren't turning into more shopping malls.
 
Piloto said:
A rocket unable to achieve orbital velocity can easily crash into Chicago. Rocket engine failures after launch are not uncomon and causes the rocket to crash over 500nm from the lift-off point.

José
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That assumes launch vehicles will be multi-stage rockets. While already a proven concept, it was Rutan and his backers who successfully demonstrated winged vehicles to be commerically viable.
 
Richard said:
That assumes launch vehicles will be multi-stage rockets. While already a proven concept, it was Rutan and his backers who successfully demonstrated winged vehicles to be commerically viable.
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Rutan's "space plane" can achieve the altitude close to space but never the 17,000mph required for orbital trajectory. Even if you are 300 miles above Earth if you are not doing 17,000mph you will not achieve orbit thus you fall down.

José
 
Richard said:
The New Mexico facility http://www.spaceportamerica.com/ makes less sense for rocketry but, like Mojave, seems well suited for operations like Branson's.
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That's part of the question here. Spaceport America borrows from White Sands, while Spaceport Front Range is under DEN's Bravo cake. However, does the suborbital RLV actually need the kinds of restricted airspace that accompanies vertical launch? Until the entire plan is unveiled, there is no telling.
 
BTW, since we're necromancing here... In October I spoke to Dr. William M. Gutman, Director of Technical Division at Spaceport America, and I asked what he thought about visiting GA. He said that discussions were initiated with FAA about creating a "keyhole" through the restricted airspace that would allow VFR access. Naturally the port remains private and so they would not allow interference with VG and vertical flights. Hopefuly if Front Range Spaceport comes about they establish friendly policies too.
 
zaitcev said:
BTW, since we're necromancing here... In October I spoke to Dr. William M. Gutman, Director of Technical Division at Spaceport America, and I asked what he thought about visiting GA. He said that discussions were initiated with FAA about creating a "keyhole" through the restricted airspace that would allow VFR access. Naturally the port remains private and so they would not allow interference with VG and vertical flights. Hopefuly if Front Range Spaceport comes about they establish friendly policies too.
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It probably won't be up to FTG tower, but to the DIA tower...

Uh...Front Range Ground, SpaceCadet 42 ready for takeoff on 35...

SpaceCadet 42, Front Range Ground, hold for traffic departing on Denver 35 Right.
(30 min later) SpaceCadet 42, Front Range Tower cleared for takeoff on FTG 35. Contact Denver Departure on 128.25

Front Range, SpaceCadet 42 departing 35...uh...anybody? We gotta problem, emergency landing on Manila Road...
 
Yeah, the TFR being that close to DIA would be a *****... if they're anything like the Shuttle used to get...

"TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS KENNEDY SPACE CENTER OPERATIONS AREA EFFECTIVE 0803110313 THRU 0803110744. PURSUANT TO SECTION 91.143 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS TITLE 14 (CFR 91.143), FLIGHT OPERATIONS CONDUCTED BY FAA CERTIFICATED PILOTS OR CONDUCTED In AIRCRAFT OF U.S. REGISTRY ARE PROHIBITED AT ANY ALTITUDE FROM THE SURFACE TO UNLIMITED, WITHIN THE FOLLOWING AREA: BEGINNNG AT LAT. 285116N LONG. 804219W TO LAT. 290730N LONG. 803000W THENCE CLOCKWISE VIA A 30 NAUTICAL MILE ARC CENTERED ATLAT. 283703N LONG. 803647W TO LAT. 281330N LONG. 801600WTO LAT. 282501N LONG. 802399W TO LAT. 282501N LONG. 803759WTO LAT. 282501N LONG. 804144W TO LAT. 283801N LONG. 804701WTO LAT. 284911N LONG. 805044W TO LAT. 285116N LONG. 804714WTO LAT. 285116N LONG. 804219WMIAMI CENTER /ZMA/, PHONE 305-716-1589, IS THE COORDINATING FAA FACILITY AND MAY BE CONTACTED FOR THE CURRENT STATUS OF ANY AIRSPACE ASSOCIATED WITH THE SPACE SHUTTLE OPERATIONS. THIS AREA ENCOMPASSES R2932, R2933, R2934,AND PORTIONS OF W497A, W158A, AND W158C. ADDITIONAL WARNING AND RESTRICTED AREAS WILL BE ACTIVE In CONJUNCTION WITH THE OPERATIONS.PILOTS SHALL CONSULT ALL NOTAMS REGARDING THIS OPERATION."
 
Naw, it'd be normal commercial op: "Spaceflight 1, cleared to the spacestation as filed, climb on course to 10,000, expect 60,000 within one minute, contact departure on 128.25, squawk 4545"
 
Clark1961 said:
Naw, it'd be normal commercial op: "Spaceflight 1, cleared to the spacestation as filed, climb on course to 10,000, expect 60,000 within one minute, contact departure on 128.25, squawk 4545"
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"Mission Control clears SMS-1 to Canaveral via thrust vectors, Up, Hold Earth, right turns, expect further clearance in ten days."
 
lionclaw said:
Is FTG really the best place for a space port?

Very close to DEN (and under its bravo airspace)...

Cold snowy winters, need lots of de-icing equipment?...



The idea sounds interesting, but I think these spaceport ideas are really the cart before the horse. Mojave makes some sense with Scaled Composites being there, good weather, etc. Who will setup at FTG, and why?
Click to expand...

Don't spacecraft generally approach at a speed so high that de-icing equip is not really needed?
 
dell30rb said:
Don't spacecraft generally approach at a speed so high that de-icing equip is not really needed?
Click to expand...
FR is only going to be licensed for horizontal launch, so de-icing has to be used. Both SSC WK/SS2 system and XCOR Lynx rocketplane need de-icing. Lynx in particular has hard wing without slats, flies off the runway, and makes a hard pitch-up maneuver on the maximum Lcg.
 
Piloto said:
Rutan's "space plane" can achieve the altitude close to space but never the 17,000mph required for orbital trajectory. Even if you are 300 miles above Earth if you are not doing 17,000mph you will not achieve orbit thus you fall down.

José
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That was just the "proof of concept" vehicle. You should look up the Pegasus rocket system that does put satellites in orbit now.

A northern launch facility works fine if you need a polar orbit. Vandenberg AFB has a latitude only degree or so south of Denver.
 
I just want to be able to change my signature to say "Denver Front Range SPACEPORT!"
 
PilotAlan said:
I just want to be able to change my signature to say "Denver Front Range SPACEPORT!"
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I am so tempted to move, just so I can base my cherokee at 48U

"On July 5, 1994, Resolution R94-23 of the Green River city council designated this landing field as the "Greater Green River Intergalactic Spaceport", for inhabitants of who might wish to take sanctuary in Green River in the event their planet is threatened by collisions from comets or meteors.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Green_River_Intergalactic_Spaceport#cite_note-2 Thus far, no spacecraft of any kind have actually used the spaceport, and actual use has been limited to terrestrial aircraft."
 
Clark Lindsey reports from FAA COMSTAC:
Dennis Heap, Front Range Airport, Denver, CO
- Currently an active airport but underutilized.
- Facing a shrinking general aviation market
- 5th Battalion of 18th Special Forces uses a section of the facility
- Good infrastructure and transportation systems in the area
- Good place for airlaunch
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by http://www.hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=35789

My notes
- who is Dennis Heap
- people who have access to gasoline sales data know that GA is dying even in busy places like FTG; although some may have an insterest in hastening its demise, e.g. Van Nuys
- compared to Mojave and Spaceport America this is a bit of pie in the sky, because existing spaceports always have something other than just dreams about airlaunch. Mojave hosts a large number of development companies, test stands dot its eastern range. Spaceport America pops vertical launches all the time.
 
zaitcev said:
Clark Lindsey reports from FAA COMSTAC:
by http://www.hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=35789

My notes
- who is Dennis Heap
- people who have access to gasoline sales data know that GA is dying even in busy places like FTG; although some may have an insterest in hastening its demise, e.g. Van Nuys
- compared to Mojave and Spaceport America this is a bit of pie in the sky, because existing spaceports always have something other than just dreams about airlaunch. Mojave hosts a large number of development companies, test stands dot its eastern range. Spaceport America pops vertical launches all the time.
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Dennis Heap is the airport manager. He dreams big, delivers small. Nothing new here.
 
Clark1961 said:
Dennis Heap is the airport manager. He dreams big, delivers small. Nothing new here.
Click to expand...

As for infrastructure - transportation reasonably good. Very convenient access to I-70 and the railroad line. However, there's no public transportation, getting a water/sewer drop is very expensive, phone service is split between two land carriers (dividing line is 17-35 runway).
 
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