Freezing level and flying in clouds

Is flying in clouds at or above the freezing level flight into known icing?

  • Yes

    Votes: 34 42.5%
  • No

    Votes: 46 57.5%

  • Total voters
    80

JC150

Pre-takeoff checklist
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JC150
Is flying into a cloud while at or above the freezing level considered flying into known icing conditions?

I'm a little weak on my knowledge of flight into known icing, and I am reaching out to you guys to help educate me on this topic. I have flown above the freezing level and sometimes I never get icing, but my question is, if you take an aircraft above the freezing level and fly into clouds, is that technically flight into known icing?
 
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FAA's answer. Clear as mud.

http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2009/090126icing.pdf?_ga=1.262878156.1171484986.1454874716

Generally most folks would say "no" since structural ice doesn't always form in those conditions.

But if you come falling out of the sky as an ice ball and get FAAs attention enough for them to ask questions, you'll need to prove your decision was "reasonable and prudent" and that you familiarized yourself with all aspects of the flight.

Many people would add that if there's a PIREP of icing along the proposed route, that's a game changer for that "reasonable and prudent" thing.
 
The FAA is going to look to see,that you did the proper pre planning for your flight. I tend to believe pireps on icing ,and avoid flying in those areas.
 
The FAA is going to look to see,that you did the proper pre planning for your flight. I tend to believe pireps on icing ,and avoid flying in those areas.
Yep... not only that, but if there are pireps for icing anywhere in the same weather system, and the temps are below freezing in the clouds along my route, I stay out of the clouds. :yes:

As a general rule, I don't penetrate clouds below freezing unless the layer is very thin, or (hypothetically - it's never happened) if I know that the clouds contain very little liquid water. Lack of pireps, or even a negative pirep, isn't enough.
 
The FAA's position is that if you end up in an incident or accident due to icing without FIKI certification, you should have known about it, since any "prudent pilot" would have, and therefore you'd be in violation of the flight into known icing rules. So as non-FIKI it's up to you to avoid icing, and to always have reliable outs so that if you inadvertently get into it, you can get out PDQ.
So no, flying into clouds below the freezing level is not automatically a violation, as long as you know what you are doing and have sufficient outs in case you mess up.
 
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If you end up in any significant icing in a non FIKI plane the FAA will be the last thing in your mind.

Just avoid it, if you're anywhere near it be sure you have a ton of outs, or buy a FIKI plane, or just don't go up.
 
So how do you determine if there's just simply ice crystals in the clouds and not water droplets that will form ice on your plane?
 
Depends on how cold it really is, pireps are king and watch your representive surface.
 
So how do you determine if there's just simply ice crystals in the clouds and not water droplets that will form ice on your plane?


You don't. You know where conditions are where ice *could* form (leaving out the "too cold" stuff since most of us bug-smasher types can't fly that high) and watch.

If it's nighttime bring a good flashlight that'll light up the wing outside real good. ;)

On Cessnas the contrast between the black tire and the ice/snow is a good place to look if there aren't any wheel pants on it.

Plus, even if you could predict it somewhat accurately, it could still form there anyway.

Add "regular look outside" to the repetitive portion of the cruise checklist and set a timer for it, if you're purposefully twisting the devil's tail in a non-FIKI aircraft. Heck add it to the FIKI checklist too. Some of those you need to know when to blow the boots.
 
So how do you determine if there's just simply ice crystals in the clouds and not water droplets that will form ice on your plane?
Requires expertise. There is a marker for glaciated clouds on the Skew T - Scott D. has a video somewhere on his site that explains this. The temp and dew point lines parallel each other over a fairly wide range of altitudes. However, once I thought I had spotted a Skew T showing glaciation and he said that was something else. So I would run it past an expert before committing to a launch based on that.
 
For my preflight decision making, the answer is yes. It is known to me that ice only forms below freezing in visible moisture. So for my own purposes, that's really all I need to know. And I avoid those conditions in my own flying.

All the rest is a legal argument that I don't care to get into.
 
Probably not the FAA designation, but In my little pea brain I process your word "AT" freezing or above and come to the conclusion of yes it would be forecast ice "AT" 32 DEGF.

If you said just 10 degrees above then I would say no (but could be quickly).

I have been in the clouds and watch the OAT go from 40 down to 32 DEGF at the same ALT then hit Precip from above in a blink of an eye all in areas without Icing airmets. Hello mr ice...:confused:
 
I have been in the clouds and watch the OAT go from 40 down to 32 DEGF at the same ALT then hit Precip from above in a blink of an eye all in areas without Icing airmets. Hello mr ice...:confused:
Yes, I have watched the OAT decrease by a number of degrees right after entering a cloud.

But you can fly in clouds in temperatures below freezing for a long time without getting ice, then it's there.

Anecdotally I would say you are more likely to get ice in temperatures just below freezing, in clouds that look dense, with vertical development, and close to the tops.
 
IME temperatures of 20-32 make for the absolutely worst ice. It gets slowly better until around 0 everything is ice crystals and won't stick to the airplane. Watch out for inversion layers. I've picked up ice on a clear day in an inversion.
 
Most of you here have a lot more experience than i do, so I'd like to ask some questions that I've been wondering about so I can learn from you all.

1) While flying in cold weather during VMC, and often at night, when the strobe goes off and I look at the area around the strobe, I see what looks like rain flying by... but there's no precipitation. Does anyone know what this is? When I turn the landing light on it also looks like precipitation flying at me, but again, its not. Are these the 'ice crystals' in the air?

2) The last experience I had flying in IMC below freezing was at 9,000ft and I was near the tops. OAT -6C and no ice. Is this because there wasn't enough moisture in the clouds?

3) I've heard people say if you get icing you should climb. Flying a Cessna 172, climbing isn't something its too good at if I'm already at 9,000 feet.. But assuming I had more power, why is climbing the better course of action?

4) The general consensus I'm getting from this thread is flying in IMC below freezing is not the definition of FIKI, but most people wouldn't fly into the clouds if the OAT is below freezing. Am I correct?
 
FAA's answer. Clear as mud.

http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2009/090126icing.pdf?_ga=1.262878156.1171484986.1454874716

Generally most folks would say "no" since structural ice doesn't always form in those conditions.

Technically, it would be Flight Into Unknown Icing. Prudence dictates that if it's an unknown, then you error on the side of caution. At least to me.

"Might form" contains one of those trigger words which indicates that the successful termination of your flight is in question.
 
To add to my list of questions above..

5) Is flying through snow considered flight into known icing? It is frozen precip isn't it?
 
Most of you here have a lot more experience than i do, so I'd like to ask some questions that I've been wondering about so I can learn from you all.



1) While flying in cold weather during VMC, and often at night, when the strobe goes off and I look at the area around the strobe, I see what looks like rain flying by... but there's no precipitation. Does anyone know what this is? When I turn the landing light on it also looks like precipitation flying at me, but again, its not. Are these the 'ice crystals' in the air?



2) The last experience I had flying in IMC below freezing was at 9,000ft and I was near the tops. OAT -6C and no ice. Is this because there wasn't enough moisture in the clouds?



3) I've heard people say if you get icing you should climb. Flying a Cessna 172, climbing isn't something its too good at if I'm already at 9,000 feet.. But assuming I had more power, why is climbing the better course of action?



4) The general consensus I'm getting from this thread is flying in IMC below freezing is not the definition of FIKI, but most people wouldn't fly into the clouds if the OAT is below freezing. Am I correct?



To add to my list of questions above..



5) Is flying through snow considered flight into known icing? It is frozen precip isn't it?


For the record: I have very little real winter weather IFR experience actually but I have a ton of time in studying weather, including some great college level aviation weather courses long ago.

1) Hard to say what you're seeing. If it isn't sticking to the aircraft (snow sometimes will by ramming into the leading edge but that's not quite the same thing as structural icing), nothing to do but monitor it.

2) Maybe. At -6C it may all be frozen and bouncing off.

3) Climb is recommended because you're more likely to descend into freezing rain than to climb into it, but if there's an inversion layer (seen best in a Skew-T chart for the area) that's not always going to hold true. Climbing in theory takes you to colder air where maybe ice won't form on the aircraft. It's a rule of thumb, not a guarantee.

4) I'd look at the Skew-T charts very closely along the route and also the frontal maps and see if I have both a reasonable "out" where there's little or no visible moisture to be able to "bail out" toward and whether or not there's any PIREPs. The PIREP system being what it is, and also because of a lowering of options, my personal alert level would be much higher overnight and early in the morning about possible ice before anyone is "up in it" because the PIREPs really don't start showing up until people start flying for the day. Nobody except the poor schmuck stuck at low altitudes in an underpowered aircraft without FIKI gear has a front row seat or knows the complete icing picture, until they're reporting it to ATC or Flight Service, or it's you with the front row seat seeing it form on the aircraft. And it's time to do something about it RIGHT NOW in most bugsmasher type aircraft when you see it. Plowing on and seeing if it'll "get better" obviously is the worst possible option. Think of it as the first poor schmuck that flew on a "maybe turbulent" day who now is being bounced off of the ceiling and has a divot from their headset in their head. Time to divert or turn around or climb or descend or whatever the hell will get you out of it. (Besides slowing to Va. Ha.)

5) In my opinion, no. Snow is forming somewhere above you and may be falling out of a cloud above. That's not structural icing conditions, that's just that you're getting snowed on. The thing to know if under clouds that are dropping snow is that icing conditions are above. Are you flying toward the front or away from it? Are you flying toward the shallow edge of the front or the deeper? Paralleling it? Where's your "out" if the freezing stuff comes down to meet you? Did you look at the Skew-T predictions along your path and do they show you headed for colder air or warmer? How about where the bump is where the bases should start? Can you see the bases? Do they match the prediction? If not, why not? Etc.

It's weather. It'll always surprise you.

For an analogy that isn't too bad, it's no different than having to divert around thunderstorms in summer over the Great Plains. (Which is a bit easier, since you're usually CAVU in-between them and just watching where you shouldn't be.)

Freezing stuff requires you imagine where the bad stuff is and visualize it in your head instead of with your eyeballs -- using all of your weather knowledge, whatever you've got.

Flying directly into known freezing stuff or a widespread area of conditions that are producing structural ice on other aircraft (often aircraft with better performance and more anti-ice gear on board than I) is as similarly deadly as flying into embedded thunderstorm activity -- where you can't see them to go around them, to continue the analogy.

You use every piece of information you can get your hands on and everything you know about weather to think it through before departing. If you encounter stuff you didn't expect, it's time to bail out via your pre-planned "out" and get out of it.

And like any other weather decision: If you're not comfortable going in the first place, don't. Especially if you're flying for "fun". Launching with a gut feel of a bad outcome often results in exactly that. I'll go if I can reasonably make a decision that says the outcome of the flight will be positive.

If I can't figure out a way that it would or there's a big question mark in the flight plan, I might call someone who's done more of it for an opinion (while knowing I'm still PIC) who can peek at forecasts with me, or I might just say it's not worth it and scrub the flight.

Or maybe there's a way to go a couple hundred miles out of my way and circumnavigate the crud? If I don't mind the bigger fuel bill and another fuel stop, the "penalty" of flying more is rarely a show stopper for me. I'll just fly around it.

All sorts of options. Welcome to being PIC in adverse weather... I hear there's a two drink minimum at the far end if you screwed up enough to make your knees shake and vow to never do something that stupid again. Heh.

Going back to your original scenario: Night IMC by the numbers is the absolute most dangerous thing anyone can do single pilot, GA, single engine. It should give you some significant pause that you're seeing something outside the window you don't know what it is. Which it sounds like, it did, which is why you're asking. Don't forget to check your operations against things you know are killers in the crash records. Anytime you're doing something people crash a lot doing, always ask yourself, "Should I really be doing this now?"

Some people won't even fly at night in a single. Let alone IMC. I respect that. There's a personal risk assessment that needs to be taken seriously by the PIC.
 
3) Climb is recommended because you're more likely to descend into freezing rain than to climb into it, but if there's an inversion layer (seen best in a Skew-T chart for the area) that's not always going to hold true. Climbing in theory takes you to colder air where maybe ice won't form on the aircraft. It's a rule of thumb, not a guarantee.

Can you explain this a little further? If the cloud isn't dropping precipitation as seen on the NEXRAD, can you still get freezing rain?
 
JC, my own personal bugsmasher minimums are not to get anywhere close to making those calculations. You're right that if you pick up ice at 9K you're probably not going to keep climbing. So, regardless of the Skew-T, you have fewer outs. The inversion layer question has to do with the lapse rate and how inversions don't play by the rules.

And, if you don't know him, it's time for you to meet Mr. Dennstaedt:

https://avwxworkshops.com/magazines/Dennstaedt_Skew-T-Part1.pdf
 
Can you explain this a little further? If the cloud isn't dropping precipitation as seen on the NEXRAD, can you still get freezing rain?


I would think any precip would show up on NEXRAD. Remember though you can get freezing rain that falls through a colder layer below it and becomes ice pellets, etc. (GR on the METAR I believe...)

The Skew-T should help see inversion layers like that. NEXRAD won't be much help, with the modes that most of us are shown.
 
Simple. If you're flying a FIKI plane the answer is YES. If you're not the answer is NO. :D I bet there is a strong correlation between those two. ;)
 
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