Four way stop signs?

[John Baker]

Yesterday, for the second time, I came very close to getting in a car wreck after stopping at a stop sign. San Diego's traffic division has embraced a great way to keep us all safe, the four way stop sign intersection.

They have become so overused, that whenever I stop at a stop sign, I just assume the oncoming traffic is going to do the same. Normally I look for the other stop signs, but like the traffic lights becoming a subconscious function of driving, you obey them without thinking about them at all, so has the four way stop sign.

I'm wondering how many people have been killed as a result of expecting the oncoming traffic to also stop.

When they are used on busy streets, it is not much of a problem, but on quiet residential streets, you can go through four or five four way stops, then come to an intersection that is only stopping you.

Two times I've heard the screeching of brakes and been given the stupid old man look.

Are other cities doing this, anyone else had any close calls?

-John

 

[Sac Arrow]

Not exactly sure what you're asking. Four way stop signs are common in my area. Yes people can and do blow by stop signs but that isn't just at four way intersections.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I see no difference between a 4 way stop and a 2 way stop.

Just because there is a sign for the other guy doesn't mean that he/she/it is going to actually stop.

If I have time to go, I go. If not, I look for a sign that they are actually going to stop (slowing down gives me time to go so I don't wait for the actual stop).

 

[John Baker]

I guess I'm doing a crappy job of explaining. I'm talking about going through several four way stop signs where everyone is obeying them from all directions, then coming to a two way stop sign that is only stopping you, however, you are expecting the approaching traffic to also be stopping so you pull out in front of them.

You have been conditioned by the multitude of previous four way stop signs to expect the two way one to also be a four way stop, so you do a dumb ass and pull out into oncoming traffic.

-John

 

[Fearless Tower]

First of all NO ONE driving in Southern California should ever assume that the other traffic will stop!

 

[TMetzinger]

And there should be a "four way" or "all way" placard on the sign if all traffic must stop.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[RV10flyer]

Yes John, it has happened to me recently in Savannah with alot of nice shade trees in the city and alot of distractions. I was the one without the stop signs for several intersections then came to one that I saw just in time. The anti-locks stopped us from 25-0 in about 10'. I try to always be prepared for people like me...out of towners with kids. The rest of the trip we had the sterile cockpit rule when not on the interstate.

You are on here asking a group that does not like to admit that they are not perfect.

 

[John Baker]

And there should be a "four way" or "all way" placard on the sign if all traffic must stop.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Yup, they all have them, but then that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about subconsciouses driving behavior, like driving to work, obeying all the rules, but doing it automatically, without really thinking about it.

-John

 

[Bob Noel]

Yup, they all have them, but then that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about subconsciouses driving behavior, like driving to work, obeying all the rules, but doing it automatically, without really thinking about it.

-John

The stop sign says "4 way". What more do you want? what more can be done?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Yup, they all have them, but then that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about subconsciouses driving behavior, like driving to work, obeying all the rules, but doing it automatically, without really thinking about it.

-John

You are assuming that at a 4 way stop, just because traffic going the other way has a stop sign they will stop. Bad assumption.

Assume they will not stop at all intersections. Then your subconscious won't get confused. And, you won't get t-boned by someone blowing off a stop sign.

Assuming that everyone else will follow the rules makes you an accident victim.

 

[Fearless Tower]

For one, if you were to put traffic lights at just a fraction of those intersections....the whole electric grid in SoCal would crash.

 

[N801BH]

I see no difference between a 4 way stop and a 2 way stop.

Just because there is a sign for the other guy doesn't mean that he/she/it is going to actually stop.

If I have time to go, I go. If not, I look for a sign that they are actually going to stop (slowing down gives me time to go so I don't wait for the actual stop).

IMHO, Nothing beats a traffic circle... Very efficient, logical and smooth running when all parties know how to use one.. They are starting to use them out here and 99.34 of the idiots have NO clue how to drive using them..... Friggin idiots..

 

[TommyG]

Being that I ride a motorcycle, I know anticipate the other people to blow through the stop sighn or red, or turn without using signals. Its kept me alive so that just my everyday mindset now.

 

[jhausch]

IMHO, Nothing beats a traffic circle... Very efficient, logical and smooth running when all parties know how to use one.. They are starting to use them out here and 99.34 of the idiots have NO clue how to drive using them..... Friggin idiots..

The use of traffic circles is growing here in WI. It will take a while before people learn how to look ahead to anticipate proper entry.

My theory on roundabouts...they don't reduce accidents, but they certainly slow them down and reduce fatalities....

 

[flav8r]

IMHO, Nothing beats a traffic circle... Very efficient, logical and smooth running when all parties know how to use one.. They are starting to use them out here and 99.34 of the idiots have NO clue how to drive using them..... Friggin idiots..

They have them all over the place here on Amelia Island but the terrorists (Oops! I meant to say Tourists) don't have a clue on how to use them.
They come to a complete stop and let everyone and their mother continue to go around while you just sit there behind them wondering if they're ever going to enter the traffic circle.

 

[pikespeakmtnman]

They have them all over the place here on Amelia Island but the terrorists (Oops! I meant to say Tourists) don't have a clue on how to use them.
They come to a complete stop and let everyone and their mother continue to go around while you just sit there behind them wondering if they're ever going to enter the traffic circle.

That's how it works here in CO too. Colo Springs has a fascination with stop lights though...any new intersection gets a traffic light if it sees more than 5 cars a day...otherwise a roundabout goes in... Most of the intersections that are built are added on to an existing "sorta major" road for a new subdivision and likely a couple thoughtfully placed "right turn onlys" would work JUST FINE...

 

[JOhnH]

Sorry John, but you just have to assume that there is a chance the other guy is not going to stop whether there is a stop sign or not. Any other practice will eventually get you t-boned. At least wait for a sign he is stopping unless you can proceed safely regardless. That is the price we pay for not having ground traffic control for cars.

 

[RJM62]

I suggest you spend some time in New York City. Preferably Brooklyn or The Bronx. Couple of weeks should do. After that, you'll never again assume that other drivers are going to do the right thing.

-Rich

 

[Dan Thomas]

I just glance across the intersection to see if the other guy has a stop sign. Even then, there's no guarantee he will stop. Blowing through signs and red lights seems to be on the rise considerably. Had a guy deliberately run through a red the other morning right across in front of me, on my green. He actually accelerated when approaching it.

Dan

 

[Fearless Tower]

I suggest you spend some time in New York City. Preferably Brooklyn or The Bronx. Couple of weeks should do. After that, you'll never again assume that other drivers are going to do the right thing.

-Rich

No different from Southern California (they call it the California Stop for a reason), that is why I told he should know better; he has certainly lived there long enough.

 

[SkyHog]

In NM, when there is a 2 way stop that looks like it could have been a 4 way, they hang a sign that says "cross traffic does not stop."

I always thought it was silly, but it sounds like it addresses your concern.

 

[Sac Arrow]

In NM, when there is a 2 way stop that looks like it could have been a 4 way, they hang a sign that says "cross traffic does not stop."

I always thought it was silly, but it sounds like it addresses your concern.

I see those too sometimes.

I spend a fair amount of time in Southeast Asia. They don't DO stop signs. Traffic is very used to blending in with each other at intersections without stopping.

 

[FlySince9]

IMHO, Nothing beats a traffic circle... Very efficient, logical and smooth running when all parties know how to use one.. They are starting to use them out here and 99.34 of the idiots have NO clue how to drive using them..... Friggin idiots..

That might be because the rules vary state to state...I remember when I first started driving in NYC/NJ... I don't remember, now, which was which, but in one state, the person in the circle had the right-of-way, in the other, the person entering the circle had the right of way... SIGN, SCHMIGN, YIELD meant go faster to avoid a crash... I share the

 

[Sac Arrow]

That might be because the rules vary state to state...I remember when I first started driving in NYC/NJ... I don't remember, now, which was which, but in one state, the person in the circle had the right-of-way, in the other, the person entering the circle had the right of way... SIGN, SCHMIGN, YIELD meant go faster to avoid a crash... I share the

How bizarre, in Cali and every single country that uses traffic circles the person inside the circle has the right of way. Well, that may be an overstatement but in every other country I've been to its that way.

Where I think traffic circles start to fail is when you delineate more than two lanes within the circle. Then, there is a mad grab for lane space within a short distance. Granted, when I've seen them the circles were very large in diameter but still....

 

[FlySince9]

Hmm.. Interesting.. I always thought the one in the circle had the right of way and incoming traffic had to yield.

I think it comes down to some state following the general rule that the person to the right should yield. Since the circle moves counter-clockwise, that usually means the person entering has to yield.. The other factor that comes into play is which feeder is most busy. Sometimes its more efficient to let the traffic enter the circle unrestricted to keep the main artery moving...

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Not had any close calls at 4 ways.

My thing with those is people that just sit there and contemplate life, or something, I stop and go, if ya wait, then you can wait too long then you can wait a little longer for me to go ahead... got places to go

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Yes John, it has happened to me recently in Savannah with alot of nice shade trees in the city and alot of distractions. I was the one without the stop signs for several intersections then came to one that I saw just in time. The anti-locks stopped us from 25-0 in about 10'. I try to always be prepared for people like me...out of towners with kids. The rest of the trip we had the sterile cockpit rule when not on the interstate.

I had an "issue" in Savannah once, on one of the boulevards with all the giant trees overhead. They have all their lights hanging above the road, and none on poles... I was cruising down the street, and suddenly slammed on my brakes - I saw a car going the opposite way stopped at an intersection. I was in a rented Dodge Intrepid, and I'm tall, and the roof line blocked the light once it came out of the trees above, so I never saw it at all. Yikes!

Yup, they all have them, but then that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about subconsciouses driving behavior, like driving to work, obeying all the rules, but doing it automatically, without really thinking about it.

Yep - I once ran a red light because it was near a friend's house that I used to hang with late at night a lot, so it was always blinking red. After stopping and going at that intersection so many times, I was there once during the day, with a solid red. Stopped, and then went right through it. Doh!

We have tons of 4-way stops in WI, it's just been in the last couple of years that we've started getting the traffic circles, but they're going in at a crazy rate and people aren't quite sure how to use 'em yet.

At least we don't have those god-awful jug-handles like New Jersey...

 

[Tom-D]

We have tons of 4-way stops in WI, it's just been in the last couple of years that we've started getting the traffic circles, but they're going in at a crazy rate and people aren't quite sure how to use 'em yet.

That cycle started here in Wa about 4 years ago. we now must watch those that cut you off the circle.

I really think it is a big improvement to the stop signs.

 

[fgcason]

but like the traffic lights becoming a subconscious function of driving, you obey them without thinking about them at all, so has the four way stop sign.

BFS! Traffic lights and stop signs are not a subconscious function of driving. It's an optional thing to do if you want to and are not in a hurry and only if you're not too self centered that day.

I watch cars blow through stop signs and red lights daily. Two way or four way stop signs doesn't matter. Residential or busy main roads doesn't matter either. Red lights are high risk locations. The residential area that I'm in right now is fairly safe to drive in. I still stop at all 2 and 4 way stop signs. If it's a 2 way and I have right of way to continue and the crossing traffic has the 2 way stop I still come to a complete stop at every intersection. It's saves my butt at least once a week.

 

[zaitcev]

however, you are expecting the approaching traffic to also be stopping so you pull out in front of them.

Stop blaming your conditioning and only commit to moving from a stop when oncoming traffic is stopping. "Conditioning" only means that you were unsafe at 4-way stop intersections all this time too.

 

[Armageddon Aviator]

Yesterday, for the second time, I came very close to getting in a car wreck after stopping at a stop sign. San Diego's traffic division has embraced a great way to keep us all safe, the four way stop sign intersection.

They have become so overused, that whenever I stop at a stop sign, I just assume the oncoming traffic is going to do the same. Normally I look for the other stop signs, but like the traffic lights becoming a subconscious function of driving, you obey them without thinking about them at all, so has the four way stop sign.

I'm wondering how many people have been killed as a result of expecting the oncoming traffic to also stop.

When they are used on busy streets, it is not much of a problem, but on quiet residential streets, you can go through four or five four way stops, then come to an intersection that is only stopping you.

Two times I've heard the screeching of brakes and been given the stupid old man look.

Are other cities doing this, anyone else had any close calls?

-John

We don't have 4 way stop signs in Israel.

We don't even have 2 way stop signs...

I never understood the rationale behind that system...people would kill each other on a daily basis if we had something similar...

That might work with placid, laid back people who drive slowly and politely...:wink2:


And now seriously...why don't they use traffic lights instead ? or round-abouts ? (even better )...

 

[denverpilot]

The Honda automatic stop sign detector, coming soon to a sheeple dealership near you.

 

[Ghery]

IMHO, Nothing beats a traffic circle... Very efficient, logical and smooth running when all parties know how to use one.. They are starting to use them out here and 99.34 of the idiots have NO clue how to drive using them..... Friggin idiots..

We've had traffic circles for years around here. And people still don't know how to use them. Nothing new there.

I see those too sometimes.

I spend a fair amount of time in Southeast Asia. They don't DO stop signs. Traffic is very used to blending in with each other at intersections without stopping.

As I had to explain to a friend from the UK when we were in Bangkok a bit over a week ago - the only rule is that there are no rules. Keeps you alive longer trying to cross the street. Not at all like crossing through a sea of motor scooters in Hanoi.

How bizarre, in Cali and every single country that uses traffic circles the person inside the circle has the right of way. Well, that may be an overstatement but in every other country I've been to its that way.

Where I think traffic circles start to fail is when you delineate more than two lanes within the circle. Then, there is a mad grab for lane space within a short distance. Granted, when I've seen them the circles were very large in diameter but still....

France may still be the one outlyer there. Traffic entering the circle had the right of way when I last drove there 20 years ago. And the mother of all traffic circles is the one surrounding the Arc d'Triumph. 10 lanes. I have a video I took in 1992 on a Sunday morning where I was panning the skyline. The sound track caught a "crunch! tinkle, tinkle" as the only two cars in the whole circle collided. Gotta love traffic circles in Paris.

 

[Matthew]

We started getting traffic circles a number of years ago. The first was put in where a 4-way stop used to be. That intersection was no big deal and didn't need a signal light, except at rush hour when traffic would back up for a long way in all directions and impacted a couple of other intersections. The circle was not very well accepted - even the fire department wouldn't agree to it until the traffic department set up a circle of the same dimensions in a parking lot and the FD took their longest rig through it without hitting any cones. Since then we've gotten quite a few, even though it took a while to get used to them. A lot of people still treated them as 4-way stops instead of 4-way yields. Now, I just wish more people would learn to use their turn signal so you know where they will exit.

The downside of the circle over the old 4-way was that it really eats up a lot of real-estate, and the first two circles were in residential areas. The folks who lost a lot of their yards weren't very happy.

 

[fgcason]

The Honda automatic stop sign detector, coming soon to a sheeple dealership near you.

The ACME pop up out of the ground 4ft thick steel plate is needed for all traffic signals in this country. Stop those damned murderous redlight runners cold in their tracks...

The minute they do that though, I'm going to buy a semi truck with a flatbed trailer and go into the towing business. I figure I can make at least $800,000 a month (after all operating expenses and taxes) cleaning up the wreckage.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

 

[Sac Arrow]

Holy crapola, that looks like a STAR with multiple transitions, I'd hate to have to decode that thing on the fly!

 

[oldShar]

IMHO, Nothing beats a traffic circle... Very efficient, logical and smooth running when all parties know how to use one.. They are starting to use them out here and 99.34 of the idiots have NO clue how to drive using them..... Friggin idiots..

Agreed.
They are starting to use them quite a bit here as well -- and a LOT of people are spewing epithets because they don't like the looks or changes to their habits; but I think they're great!

They aren't that common around the world yet. My first experience with them was in Chicopee Falls, MA in the 60's and then a couple of intersections in Tokyo and Buenos Aires, but otherwise nothing until VERY RECENTLY, and now they are popping up at many intersections!!

I think they're great

 

[John Baker]

What if they quit trying to save us from ourselves and just removed all traffic controls completely? No lights, no signs, no lines, no speed limits, no nothing?

A town in Europe did exactly that a few years back. The reduction in accidents, fatalities, and injuries was cut by over seventy percent.

People will not blow through intersections if they are convinced everyone is going to do it. However, we are a nation of laws, the thought of doing anything like that affects us about as much as someone dragging their fingernails down a blackboard. Completely intolerable to us brainwashed sheeple.

-John

 

[Ghery]

Swindon?