Four way stop signs?

John Baker said:
What if they quit trying to save us from ourselves and just removed all traffic controls completely? No lights, no signs, no lines, no speed limits, no nothing?

A town in Europe did exactly that a few years back. The reduction in accidents, fatalities, and injuries was cut by over seventy percent.

People will not blow through intersections if they are convinced everyone is going to do it. However, we are a nation of laws, the thought of doing anything like that affects us about as much as someone dragging their fingernails down a blackboard. Completely intolerable to us brainwashed sheeple.

-John
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NOW we know what your campaign platform is!
 
John Baker said:
I guess I'm doing a crappy job of explaining. I'm talking about going through several four way stop signs where everyone is obeying them from all directions, then coming to a two way stop sign that is only stopping you, however, you are expecting the approaching traffic to also be stopping so you pull out in front of them.

You have been conditioned by the multitude of previous four way stop signs to expect the two way one to also be a four way stop, so you do a dumb ass and pull out into oncoming traffic.

-John
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John, I'm sure you're a nice guy, but maybe it's time to hang up the spurs. Whether it's driving or flying, you gotta play the cards on the table now, not the last hand.

- Jim
 
My best friends apartment complex is right off of a round-about. People cannot use them at all. They stop in them frequently, they park in them, they just fly into them without regard for the traffic in them (which has the right of way) and sometimes I even see people go backwards through it. I think the biggest problem are those who don't live in her complex or the other condos... it's the folks that need to get their double-double from In N Out and will do anything to get it. A 3 way stop would probably work a lot better than the roundabout where she lives. It's especially bad during lunch hour.


https://maps.google.com/maps?q=in+n...21,0.308647&t=h&hq=in+n+out+burger+tempe&z=18
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
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OMFG. No e-brake, doesn't know how to downshift, doesn't know to shove the thing into Park (until the officer tells him to which sounds like it does a great job of stripping his parking gear at the higher speed), doesn't think to run the thing up an embankment off the road and stop playing bumper cars...

Moronic isn't the word for this. Completely unprepared to be behind the wheel of 3000 lbs of moving metal, comes to mind.
 
denverpilot said:
Moronic isn't the word for this. Completely unprepared to be behind the wheel of 3000 lbs of moving metal, comes to mind.
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And that differs from the other drivers on the road in what way?


Anyone else notice that the guy didn't even have enough sense to pull his foot in while going through the intersections with crossing traffic. One hit on the door...
 
John Baker said:
Yup, they all have them, but then that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about subconsciouses driving behavior, like driving to work, obeying all the rules, but doing it automatically, without really thinking about it.

-John
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With or without 4-way stops, that's probably not any safer than texting while driving. The "4-Way" labels are an adequate clue IMO, if there isn't one you should expect that crossing traffic isn't stopping unless you can see their side has a stop as well (even then they might not be stopping if they don't see you).

The related thing I hate is the "unmarked" intersection, something that IMO shouldn't be legal. It's very difficult to tell the difference between an unmarked intersection and the open direction of a 2-way stop.
 
fgcason said:
Anyone else notice that the guy didn't even have enough sense to pull his foot in while going through the intersections with crossing traffic. One hit on the door...
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Yeah I was waiting for him to lose a leg. That video isn't nearly fun enough. ;)

Gizmo, anything unmarked, assume something is coming at 70 MPH from the cross street and you'll be fine. ;)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
320px-Magic_Roundabout_Schild_db.jpg
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It's an easy one compared to some of the Scottish roundabouts I have been on.
 
gismo said:
With or without 4-way stops, that's probably not any safer than texting while driving. The "4-Way" labels are an adequate clue IMO, if there isn't one you should expect that crossing traffic isn't stopping unless you can see their side has a stop as well (even then they might not be stopping if they don't see you).

The related thing I hate is the "unmarked" intersection, something that IMO shouldn't be legal. It's very difficult to tell the difference between an unmarked intersection and the open direction of a 2-way stop.
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An unmarked four way is treated as a four way stop. An unmarked T intersection is treated as a stop in the dead end direction. If I had a hard time telling which was the open direction, I'd stop and assume the other direction was open. Honestly, I rarely if ever find unmarked intersections that are ambiguous in that manner.

If you outlawed unmarked intersections, installing signage in every single residential street would get pretty ridiculous in a hurry. In most residential neighborhoods in California which are not on a gridded urban street, rarely are intersections off the main arterial marked.
 
Sac Arrow said:
An unmarked four way is treated as a four way stop. An unmarked T intersection is treated as a stop in the dead end direction.
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You are probably have this correct in your head, but part of it didn't make it to the keyboard. The right-of-way rules are as you describe them above, but there is no requirement for anyone to actually stop at uncontrolled intersections. you just have to yield to other traffic in the same manner as you described above.
 
Stevel said:
You are probably have this correct in your head, but part of it didn't make it to the keyboard. The right-of-way rules are as you describe them above, but there is no requirement for anyone to actually stop at uncontrolled intersections. you just have to yield to other traffic in the same manner as you described above.
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Yes, correct, thank you. Good point.
 
I hear what you're saying John. You do become desensitized to the two way stops after a glut of 4 way. The fix, IMO, is three prong;

1. ALL 4 way stops should be labeled the same way as such.

2. Minimize the use of 4 way stops. Typically an intersection has a heavier traveled road. That one should not have a stop. Besides, I HATE the idea of needlessly wasting inertia. This country would save a ton of gas by eliminating all the senseless stop signs. Yield signs could replace about 99.34% of stop signs IMO.

3. Increase the use of traffic circles. People are starting to get the hang of them and that will continue will increased usage.
 
Captain said:
I HATE the idea of needlessly wasting inertia. This country would save a ton of gas by eliminating all the senseless stop signs. Yield signs could replace about 99.34% of stop signs IMO.
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Amen! And I also think the sensors that trip stop lights should be placed much farther from the intersections as well as right next to them. Computing power is cheap these days, and a more intelligent switching system would also save us a ton of gas. For example, the other night I was almost to a light when someone pulled up at the opposing signal. They already had to stop (since the controller couldn't sense them until they'd already stopped), and then it switched my light yellow because the controller didn't know I was there.

With better sensing, the light could have changed early enough for the other guy to make it through the intersection without stopping, and then flipped back to green so I wouldn't have to stop. Instead, we BOTH had to stop. Yes, the current systems are much better than the pre-sensor variety where you might have to sit and wait for a couple of minutes prior to the light change at night with no opposing traffic, but it's time to take the next step.

IMO, the next step should probably involve cameras or another method of sensing the intent of cars at certain intersections to turn or not (via their turn signals). No sense changing the light for someone who's making a right turn, and those intersections that have left arrows could make use of it as well.

3. Increase the use of traffic circles. People are starting to get the hang of them and that will continue will increased usage.
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At lightly-traveled intersections, yes - This neatly solves Lance's uncontrolled intersection issue. Where I don't like traffic circles is on major roads, as again it forces everyone to slow down and waste momentum.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Amen! And I also think the sensors that trip stop lights should be placed much farther from the intersections as well as right next to them. Computing power is cheap these days, and a more intelligent switching system would also save us a ton of gas. For example, the other night I was almost to a light when someone pulled up at the opposing signal. They already had to stop (since the controller couldn't sense them until they'd already stopped), and then it switched my light yellow because the controller didn't know I was there.

With better sensing, the light could have changed early enough for the other guy to make it through the intersection without stopping, and then flipped back to green so I wouldn't have to stop. Instead, we BOTH had to stop. Yes, the current systems are much better than the pre-sensor variety where you might have to sit and wait for a couple of minutes prior to the light change at night with no opposing traffic, but it's time to take the next step.

IMO, the next step should probably involve cameras or another method of sensing the intent of cars at certain intersections to turn or not (via their turn signals). No sense changing the light for someone who's making a right turn, and those intersections that have left arrows could make use of it as well.



At lightly-traveled intersections, yes - This neatly solves Lance's uncontrolled intersection issue. Where I don't like traffic circles is on major roads, as again it forces everyone to slow down and waste momentum.
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There's a spot in Albuquerque - on Indian School Rd, east of Juan Tabo Blvd, where there is a sensor that works the opposite direction. After a certain time of night, it detects your presence and automatically triggers a red light at the Juan Tabo intersection.

You see, we used to time it so that it was green when we hit it, and the layout of the intersection gave us the ability to gain some serious air if we hit it fast enough. This was Albuquerque's way of stopping us.

That said - if it works for that, reversing that thought would work as well.

For reference:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=albu...near=Albuquerque,+Bernalillo,+New+Mexico&z=17

The trigger is just west of "Chelwood Park" about where the bus stop is marked.
 
SkyHog said:
There's a spot in Albuquerque - on Indian School Rd, east of Juan Tabo Blvd, where there is a sensor that works the opposite direction. After a certain time of night, it detects your presence and automatically triggers a red light at the Juan Tabo intersection.

You see, we used to time it so that it was green when we hit it, and the layout of the intersection gave us the ability to gain some serious air if we hit it fast enough. This was Albuquerque's way of stopping us.

That said - if it works for that, reversing that thought would work as well.

For reference:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=albu...near=Albuquerque,+Bernalillo,+New+Mexico&z=17

The trigger is just west of "Chelwood Park" about where the bus stop is marked.
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We each have our own way of leaving our unique mark on the world :devil:
 
Ghery said:
As I had to explain to a friend from the UK when we were in Bangkok a bit over a week ago - the only rule is that there are no rules. Keeps you alive longer trying to cross the street. Not at all like crossing through a sea of motor scooters in Hanoi.
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There are conventions, even so. Mainly, the larger vehicles get the right of way. That, and eye contact means you're yielding.

The sea of scooters in Hanoi is frightening for the uninitiated, especially since the locals are migrating to cars. There are more in the market district than a Westerner can imagine without having seen it. Even more than that is a full size tour bus driving through there (BTDT).

But things like lines, stop signs, traffic signals, speed limits, and so on, are strictly advisory.

You have to relearn how to cross the street there.
 
N801BH said:
What would screw me up is using one going clockwise.. I cannot drive on the wrong side of the road....:no: Safely..:eek:
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I've done the reverse roundabouts in NZ. You get used to it fast. Especially since the Kiwis have a warped sense of humor and like to put them right outside the airports (even in Christchurch, which doesn't have many roundabouts). The thing you don't get used to is shifting with the wrong hand....that's just weird.
 
MAKG1 said:
I've done the reverse roundabouts in NZ. You get used to it fast. Especially since the Kiwis have a warped sense of humor and like to put them right outside the airports (even in Christchurch, which doesn't have many roundabouts). The thing you don't get used to is shifting with the wrong hand....that's just weird.
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:yeahthat:

My first experiences with roudabouts were with clockwise ones and cars with the steering wheel over on the wrong side. I adapted more quickly to the traffic than I did to the cars.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah I was waiting for him to lose a leg. That video isn't nearly fun enough. ;)

Gizmo, anything unmarked, assume something is coming at 70 MPH from the cross street and you'll be fine. ;)
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That's exactly what I do but how do you tell that it's unmarked vs the open side of a 2 way stop?
 
MAKG1 said:
There are conventions, even so. Mainly, the larger vehicles get the right of way. That, and eye contact means you're yielding.

The sea of scooters in Hanoi is frightening for the uninitiated, especially since the locals are migrating to cars. There are more in the market district than a Westerner can imagine without having seen it. Even more than that is a full size tour bus driving through there (BTDT).

But things like lines, stop signs, traffic signals, speed limits, and so on, are strictly advisory.

You have to relearn how to cross the street there.
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It's necessarily so over there, if larger vehicles didn't have the right of way, they would never be able to move.
 
Captain said:
3. Increase the use of traffic circles. People are starting to get the hang of them and that will continue will increased usage.
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No. Please no. I live in an area where if you've been there once it's likely you've been there 20 times, and through the roundabout 20 times. People have no clue... Just yesterday I was going to enter the thing and I stopped because there was a car about to come around. I did the right thing. He stopped, waved me through and then he proceeded TO TURN THE WRONG WAY DOWN THE ROAD because he went out the in of the thing!!!!!!!!! :yikes:
 
Z06_Mir said:
No. Please no. I live in an area where if you've been there once it's likely you've been there 20 times, and through the roundabout 20 times. People have no clue... Just yesterday I was going to enter the thing and I stopped because there was a car about to come around. I did the right thing. He stopped, waved me through and then he proceeded TO TURN THE WRONG WAY DOWN THE ROAD because he went out the in of the thing!!!!!!!!! :yikes:
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The more people use them the better they get.

Traffic circles keep traffic moving. There's no waiting while two empty turn lanes wait for green arrows to sequence. The space is more effeciently utilized by keeping traffic always moving and never stopping unless congestion sets in. Even then at least the traffic circle itself keeps going.

Don't worry, folks will get better at them. Some people will die. It's okay. People die all the time.
 
Z06_Mir said:
No. Please no. I live in an area where if you've been there once it's likely you've been there 20 times, and through the roundabout 20 times. People have no clue... Just yesterday I was going to enter the thing and I stopped because there was a car about to come around. I did the right thing. He stopped, waved me through and then he proceeded TO TURN THE WRONG WAY DOWN THE ROAD because he went out the in of the thing!!!!!!!!! :yikes:
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Years ago, I was a delivery driver for a worldwide parcel delivery service and there was a new neighborhood on my route with several roundabouts built in. One of my regular customers was towards the left side of a "Y" shaped roundabout. Being as this was a neighborhood with almost no traffic it was easy to enter the circle from the "out" direction and simply make a left turn like a normal intersection. Luckily this one was designed with the flatened curbs that could be driven over so in the rare instance there was traffic in the way while I entered the circle I could still make a hard turn once traffic was past and roll over the curbs worry free.

I still did yield to other cars and would often slow down and time my entrance so that they were clear of the entire thing before I drove into their lanes....luckily other traffic was hardly ever a concern.
 
MAKG1 said:
The thing you don't get used to is shifting with the wrong hand....that's just weird.
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I can recall trying to shift the armrest while driving in the UK more than once. It doesn't work well, either. :D
 
Ghery said:
I can recall trying to shift the armrest while driving in the UK more than once. It doesn't work well, either. :D
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I turned the wipers on and off signaling to turn in Australia!
 
Ghery said:
I can recall trying to shift the armrest while driving in the UK more than once. It doesn't work well, either. :D
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For me, it was looking in the rear mirror - almost always looking to the right.

And each time I went to England, walking to the rental for the first time on the trip, even when warning myself, I always went to get into the left side instead of the driver side. argh. :)

Driving the standard was pretty easy.
 
N801BH said:
And coming to a FULL stop at stop signs or red lights doesn't waste momentum ??:dunno::goofy:
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Oh, it does... That's why I was vehemently agreeing that the vast majority of stop signs could/should be replaced with Yield signs.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Oh, it does... That's why I was vehemently agreeing that the vast majority of stop signs could/should be replaced with Yield signs.
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To a vast majority, the concept of "YIELD" doesn't exist. I'd go so far as to say, to some it is a foreign word. Then again, stop signs or red lights don't work. This can be seen at least once for every mile you drive, whether on the highway or local.
The only thing that will make traffic control devices work better is if police enforce the rules with fines and penalties appropriate to the dangers created.
 
I've wondered if smarter traffic control is feasible. We already have the sensors and equipment. Now just tie it all into a super computer somewhere to control the whole thing.

Imagine it's 3 in the morning and I'm driving across town. The system picks up my car and since I'm the only one on the road it start turning lights green so I never have to stop. Add another car and the system can deconflict the two of us if we approach the same intersection.

With mid-day traffic the system tracks everyone and best utilizes the lights to move the most traffic most efficiently. No sitting there waiting for a turn arrow when there are no cars in the turn lane. That's a massive waste of time and intersection real estate.

All it would take really is the addition of communication equipment so data to flow back and forth to the mainframe.
 
IBM is doing just that. They call the project Smarter Planet. Using technology to manage traffic and more.
They just need to get municipalities to buy in. Of course, IBM could sell ice to Eskimos. No one ever lost their job buying from them!
 
silver-eagle said:
The only thing that will make traffic control devices work better is to have a two foot thick 4 foot high steel plate jump up out of the ground to force drivers to stop by physical force.
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Fixed.

Fines, ha. People don't care in the least. You could put a $100,000 fine for every traffic control violation and it wouldn't change driver behavior one tiny little bit.
 
Captain said:
I've wondered if smarter traffic control is feasible. We already have the sensors and equipment. Now just tie it all into a super computer somewhere to control the whole thing.
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A smarter traffic system is technically possible.

I strongly doubt that that the idiots in charge of traffic lights could figure out how to use it.

There is a local traffic light here that is useful for the mon-fri rush hour traffic. But outside of rush hour, there is no need for the light. But there it is, still cycling, with only one direction green at a time. And of course, there are the ubiquitous "No Turn on Red" signs because drivers can't be trusted.
 
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