four dead at 46U

Crappy weather all weekend .


From Saturday Pocatello National Weather Service:

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May they rest in peace.
 
7 kids without parents.

Everyone be careful out there.
 
Man! I didn't even know what aircraft that was till I read it, RIP

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petrolero said:
No kidding! That looks like OVC000.06!
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I am just speculating, but the combination of snow covered landscape, low ceilings, perhaps a bit of blowing snow or fog patches in the valley, might not have been difficult to lose a distinct horizon - deadly, especially for a low time pilot.
 
A Deadly Trend

The Star Valley area has had five small aircraft crashes in the last calendar year. Four of those have now resulted in fatalities. Here is a recap of the previous airplane crashes in the past 12 months in the Star Valley area leading up to Sunday’s accident.
  • On March 13, 2015, The Afton Police Department responded to the Afton Lincoln County Airport where a pilot from Canada flipped his plane. There were no injuries.
  • On July 21, 2015, Bard Lefevre, 22 of Grover, and Chad Burton, 64 of Auburn, both were killed when their 1947 Aeronca Model 7BCM (Army 11 16A) crashed when making a candy drop for a local church group.
  • On October 15, 2015, Travis M. Hamilton, 43 of Edmond, Oklahoma, was killed when his single-engine plane crashed above the Palisades Reservoir.
  • On January 4, 2016, local Search & Rescue, the Alpine Fire & EMS responded to the upper Palisades Reservoir area where Reade Genzlinger, 61 of Alpine and Bryn Athens, Pennsylvania an a 17-year old female from Chapel Hill, North Carolina died when their Yak 52 Russian trainer aircraft crashed during a recreational flight.
  • (March 13, 2016 3 p.m.) Reports of an aircraft accident in the Alpine area resulted in area first responders reporting to the area. Initial information indicated that the incident occurred near the Alpine Airport. The Lincoln County Sheriff’s Office was first on the scene and secured the area for Bonneville County authorities who were called in to assist. Four people are believed to have died in the crash.
 
Wonder how many folks have died in car crashes in that area during that period.
 
labbadabba said:
A Deadly Trend

  • On October 15, 2015, Travis M. Hamilton, 43 of Edmond, Oklahoma, was killed when his single-engine plane crashed above the Palisades Reservoir.
  • (March 13, 2016 3 p.m.) Reports of an aircraft accident in the Alpine area resulted in area first responders reporting to the area. Initial information indicated that the incident occurred near the Alpine Airport. The Lincoln County Sheriff’s Office was first on the scene and secured the area for Bonneville County authorities who were called in to assist. Four people are believed to have died in the crash.
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How about this for a small world.. I graduated from Edmond and know people who knew Travis... likewise one of those people also moved to Idaho and knew the families that tragically died on the 13th. Maybe I should quit flying while I'm ahead.
 
steingar said:
Wonder how many folks have died in car crashes in that area during that period.
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When I first started flying this was what I would tell my wife every time she would bring up plane crashes.

That being said, this is a pilot forum, and I think it is relevant to bring up. It is a sobering reminder that flying airplanes is not the same as driving a car. It's also a good reminder that to me that one of the most important decisions I make when it comes to flying will possibly be the decision not to go. I fly for fun. I fly for recreation. I don't even have 100 hours yet. Seeing stories like this reminds me about my limitations, and how I need to respect them. I have five kids, and I want to make sure they have a dad for as long as possible.
 
Stay out of the clouds and this is a fairly copacetic hobby for most weekend warriors. As a pro pilot I can tell you, the reward for working hard in IMC is overrated. All the fun in this avocation can be had in VMC. People talk about the satisfaction of breaking out at mins from an ILS, yeah that's when everything is working. Try recovering like that with an engine failure or electrical system failures, or when you're plain not on your A game due to fatigue, sickness, or problems at home. You'd wish you drove Uber for a living then. IMC is an opportunity cost I begrudgingly accept as part of doing my job, but for recreation I seek to avoid it or minimize my time in it.
 
Agree with hindsight2020 100%. I am taking my IFR check ride next week. But not so I can fly IMC to min. I will have high ceiling and visibility min. If I have to shoot an approach to min. I have screwed the pooch on my flight planning and weather briefing!
 
steingar said:
Wonder how many folks have died in car crashes in that area during that period.
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What you should wonder instead is how the numbers compare when adjusted for the relative frequency of driving and GA flying. And the answer (as has been discussed and documented here in numerous threads) is that GA is several times more dangerous than driving, as all pilots and passengers deserve to know so they can make an informed decision about the level of risk that's acceptable to them.
 
hindsight2020 said:
As a pro pilot I can tell you, the reward for working hard in IMC is overrated. All the fun in this avocation can be had in VMC.
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My own experience differs. Sure, I'd enjoy flying VFR-only if I had to. But for me, flying among clouds is among the most beautiful experiences in aviation. And I do enjoy the challenge of shooting approaches, when I'm properly proficient (for me, maintaining proficiency includes frequent flightsim practice with severe weather and occasional surprise vacuum failures during final approach). Plus, I sometimes want to fly in order to reach a destination, and I'd often be unable to without going IFR.
 
Like AZPilot I'm a fair only weather Pilot. So My chances are good I wont be in an accident. I don't take any chances because I have a family that counts on me.
I applaud those that can fly in IMC conditions. I leave that to the Professional pilots flying in a Airliner. I don't want to worry about IFR Clearance, Weather, Approaches ect ect when it comes to IFR flying. Too much work for something I just want to fly for fun and sight see.
 
Even when I'm flying for fun, if the weather is the least bit questionable or (especially) if I have to return after dark, I much prefer to be on an IFR flight plan and even, preferably, on an airway. There are a lot of areas around here with terrain that is completely invisible in the dark, and dark nights in this part of the country are essentially instrument conditions anyway. There was an AOPA video recently about a too-close-for-comfort approach to my home field that illustrated perfectly why that approach has straight-in landings at night NA. Even if I was never going to fly hard IMC, having the knowledge to fly IFR and keeping my skills sharp has definitely been worth it.
 
evapilotaz said:
Like AZPilot I'm a fair only weather Pilot. So My chances are good I wont be in an accident. I don't take any chances because I have a family that counts on me.
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It's true you probably won't be in an accident. But that's also true of IFR pilots. But it's true that you're even less likely than IFR pilots to be in an accident. But it's not true that you don't take any chances when you fly.
I applaud those that can fly in IMC conditions. I leave that to the Professional pilots flying in a Airliner. I don't want to worry about IFR Clearance, Weather, Approaches e[tc.] e[tc.] when it comes to IFR flying. Too much work for something I just want to fly for fun and sight see.
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That's certainly a reasonably view. But I'm a nerd, so having more technical stuff to think about makes it more fun for me. :)
 
acrophile said:
But for me, flying among clouds is among the most beautiful experiences in aviation. And I do enjoy the challenge of shooting approaches, when I'm properly proficient
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:yeahthat:
Totally agree...

My favorite flights were when there was IMC on some part of the flight, or other types of weather, and I used all my knowledge to carefully plan a flight, monitor the wx while flying, and respond to the conditions as needed. For me there is no greater reward than using my aircraft for real traveling, planning and evaluating a flight correctly, adapting to changes while I am in the air, and safely complete the flight. Almost feels like I know what I'm doing sometimes :)[/QUOTE]
 
Cloud flying is amazing, breaking out the clouds is awesome... that said I want the ceiling typically 1K up... no thunderstorms, rains and defiantly no mountains.
 
So by saying IFR pilots has less of a chance because their skills are more fine tuned over a VFR pilot?
Not trying to start a VFR vs IFR war. Just trying to understand. In AZ I'm not sure why I would ever Need IFR rating for the type of flying I do.

God Bless for the victims and their families.
 
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This accident is brutally sad and on the surface looks like it was a completely needless tragedy.

evapilotaz said:
Like AZPilot I'm a fair only weather Pilot. So My chances are good I wont be in an accident. I don't take any chances because I have a family that counts on me.
I applaud those that can fly in IMC conditions. I leave that to the Professional pilots flying in a Airliner. I don't want to worry about IFR Clearance, Weather, Approaches ect ect when it comes to IFR flying. Too much work for something I just want to fly for fun and sight see.
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In AZ, wind is also a major player. Getting an IR helps you understand weather much better, not just the obvious. Btw, weather forecasters have been known to be wrong, and situations can change. Because I have a family and friends that fly with me, I take all the additional training I can get, including IFR, EMT (Emergency Maneuver Training) and light acro.

Yesterday, I flew from N. Las Vegas, VGT, to Bullhead City, IFP. Wind at VGT was vari at 4. Less than 30 minutes in my plane, the wind at IFP was 23g29. No problem, but things changed quite a bit in a short distance. Fortunately, with my training came an opportunity for training in higher winds than I thought I was comfortable with. I have learned to fly the plane. I have also used my IR quite a few times flying into IFP. I won't go near t-storms, but vfr pilots are supposed to stay clear of the clouds, with various requirements. AZ does get clouds and rain, without t-storms.

Once you get complacent and think you will keep yourself out of anything bad that could possibly happen, that's when you get bit. Keep learning. There is a reason insurance companies give discounts for getting an IR.

Loveair said:
Agree with hindsight2020 100%. I am taking my IFR check ride next week. But not so I can fly IMC to min. I will have high ceiling and visibility min. If I have to shoot an approach to min. I have screwed the pooch on my flight planning and weather briefing!
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Forecasts/forecasters are wrong all the time. Weather is dynamic and changes all the time. Forecasts should be called guesses, at best. No matter how perfect a plan you think you have, once you have flown enough, it can and will change, sometimes surprisingly. I like to think my minimums are 1,000 ft. ceilings, winds under 40kts, only light rain, etc., but on a few rare occasions, I have encountered different conditions than was forecast when I took off. I carry onboard wx with XM. Great strategic tool. Not sure I would fly xc without it.

I am always prepared to just turn around, or land short of destination. I have done both, even one time it involved missing half of a pro football game that my I was flying my buddies to. They and especially their wives thanked me. A week or two later, a guy killed himself and his family flying the same area with similar wx. I have also cancelled flights and waited a day or two for better wx. I would much rather be on the ground, wishing I was in the air, than in the air, wishing I was on the ground. I understand mine and my airplane's limitations, and after just getting past 1,000 hours of flight time, I have learned a lot, and continue to learn. I also understand what wx conditions I don't need to fear.

Keep learning. Fly safe and fly the plane. Stay current and proficient. Because I can, doesn't mean I will.
 
This board is filled with contrarians who all like to argue for the sake of arguing.

The likelihood of you dying in GA is higher than driving (unless you're on a motorycle). It is what it is. We've all accepted that risk, obviously.

4 fatal aircraft accidents resulting in 8 deaths in 1 year around one airport is, in fact, statistically quite high.

Nobody is saying that anyone should ban all aircraft from the area. However, for the record, banning all flights in the area, would, in fact, stop all plane related deaths in the same area. So yes, answering your strawman with the absurd, it WOULD prevent all aviation related fatalities in the future. But again, nobody is advocating that.

IFR is a fantastic skill to have. I plan on getting my IFR, not because I'm like "Hey. You know what would be awesome? Flying in the worst weather imaginable just because I can." No. It's because if I need to go somewhere, I'd like to be able to do it, even when the weather is less than ideal. OR, if weather changes, I'm prepared to deal with it. I think 90% of GA pilots who have their IFR feel the same way. It's a good tool to have when you need it, but you'd prefer not to need it.

I don't know what the stats are between VFR and IFR trained pilots as far as fatalities are concerned, but I'd venture a guess to say there are far more IMC related deaths with IFR rated pilots than VFR rated pilots.... simply because VFR pilots aren't going to be in the soup as much, unless something has gone terribly wrong. But I'd imagine those IFR rated pilots are generally performing at a higher level than VFR pilots, only because an IFR pilot, I'd assume, would have more time flying, on average, than a VFR pilot.
 
ircphoenix said:
I don't know what the stats are between VFR and IFR trained pilots as far as fatalities are concerned, but I'd venture a guess to say there are far more IMC related deaths with IFR rated pilots than VFR rated pilots.... simply because VFR pilots aren't going to be in the soup as much, unless something has gone terribly wrong. But I'd imagine those IFR rated pilots are generally performing at a higher level than VFR pilots, only because an IFR pilot, I'd assume, would have more time flying, on average, than a VFR pilot.
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Well, since an instrument rating gets you a discount on your insurance, I am going to guess the insurance companies have done the math and looked at the statistics and determined that Instrument rated pilots are safer.
 
If the insurance company has done the actuarial estimates, then they've absolutely done the research. I'm willing to take that as proof positive that IFR pilots are safer.... since insurance companies don't tend to make unsafe bets!!!!

(inb4 "Oh yeah... well in a few instances insurance companies have been wrong!")
 
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JoseCuervo said:
Well, since an instrument rating gets you a discount on your insurance, I am going to guess the insurance companies have done the math and looked at the statistics and determined that Instrument rated pilots are safer.
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But how much of a discount?

I was unable to determine by observation how much of a discount I received after getting my IR. There has been so much year-to-year variation in my quotes due to (so I was told) factors internal to the industry that it completely swamped any perceptible discount. I suppose I could ask my broker how much more I would be paying in a particular year if I didn't have my IR, but I'm also not sure she would be able to tell me either without sending each insurance company two separate pilot information sheets for me, which for obvious reasons, she can't do.

In any case I suspect that the discount is fairly small, probably because IR pilots' increased risk exposure largely cancels out the improved safety due to the training, as others have stated.
 
Fifty bucks.

There are aircraft which are difficult to insure without IR, but the discount for the rating itself is nominal.
 
Mine went down about $400 on a $60k hull value 182 when I got my IR. That's been about 10 years ago though and I was probably a 300 hour pilot at the time.
 
azure said:
But how much of a discount?

I was unable to determine by observation how much of a discount I received after getting my IR. There has been so much year-to-year variation in my quotes due to (so I was told) factors internal to the industry that it completely swamped any perceptible discount. I suppose I could ask my broker how much more I would be paying in a particular year if I didn't have my IR, but I'm also not sure she would be able to tell me either without sending each insurance company two separate pilot information sheets for me, which for obvious reasons, she can't do.

In any case I suspect that the discount is fairly small, probably because IR pilots' increased risk exposure largely cancels out the improved safety due to the training, as others have stated.
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I think it depends on a lot of factors including overall time. If you're a 80 hour pilot without an IFR vs. an 80 hour pilot with an IFR the discount could be 50%, but if you're a 5000 hour pilot with or without the discount may only be a few percentage points.
 
Mathmatically, it doesn't matter how much of a discount.

The fact there IS a discount, means the people who put hard money on the probability of you crashing have determined they need LESS of your premium money if you have an Instrument ticket. They are not in the business of charging less premiums for MORE risk.

They charge less premiums when they have less exposure to risk, higher premiums when the risk is higher.

Each year they renew your insurance, they ask for how many hours you now have and if you have any new ratings. They don't ask those questions out of boredom and trying to generate a conversation.
 
How do you know? Maybe they are bored and/or genuinely interested in him.

I find it insulting that you are assuming things about his personal relationship with his insurance agent. :lol:
 
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