Formation flight with New PPL?

benb172

benb172

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
282
Location
Medfield
Display Name
Display name:
Benb172
Hello POA,

So a good friend and I are both on track to receive our pilots licenses at the end of the school year. We are both seniors in high school and have been dying to do some formation flying ever since we first started soloing.

Here is my question. How safe is formation flying in 172's? If we both freshly have our licenses in May is that enough experience to safely conduct this type of flight? Good idea? Bad Idea? What are your thoughts?

We would not be getting real close, just close enough to get some pictures and enjoy the experience.

Thanks, Ben
 
Formation flying would be a bad idea until you get some basic instruction in formation flying. I would want to have some more experience before trying it.
 
You have almost no experience (individually or collectively) at this point. That isn't a slight, it is just the honest truth. Formation flying, while not hard after lots of experience doing it, involves a lot of things. Who is going to be the lead? What are the things you will need to do to get from pt A to pt B as such to make said formation flight happen, without getting violated, having a midair, or generally scaring people? What are your "ABC's"? What are the reference points you will be using on a Cessna to determine position keeping? All questions that should have an easy and second nature answer if you are ready to do such a thing.

I know some guys with who had a lot more experience than you do right now, who "got close enough to take some pictures", ended up having a midair, and nearly had to both eject. It isn't a trivial task, or just a fun activity that you randomly just do one day. It isn't inherently dangerous.....I'd argue that in some aviation communities, it is safer......but you need instruction to do it safely. It IS a lot of fun, and a cool experience, but two 18 year old wet PPL holders going out and doing it for a neat photo op sounds like a potential disaster. I'm sure there were guys in the old days who did just such a thing and didn't bend any metal, but there are better, more responsible ways of going about business today. That being said, what does the owner of your aircraft(plural) and insurance have to say about the matter? I doubt you are covered or protected in any way, shape, or form if something were to happen. That could be real bad news for you guys, or your folks, or whoever has to cough up the money at the end of the day if it goes wrong.

Not trying to discourage you from doing this.....just trying to provide a voice of reason and/or concern that you go about it the best way possible.
 
Last edited:
35 AoA said:
You have almost no experience (individually or collectively) at this point. That isn't a slight, it is just the honest truth. Formation flying, while not hard after lots of experience doing it, involves a lot of things. Who is going to be the lead? What are the things you will need to do to get from pt A to pt B as such to make said formation flight happen, without getting violated, having a midair, or generally scaring people? What are your "ABC's"? What are the reference points you will be using on a Cessna to determine position keeping? All questions that should have an easy and second nature answer if you are ready to do such a thing.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. With limited/no experience this is a very hard task. I will keep all of your requirements all in mind. Maybe the safest option is doing a couple extra lessons with our instructors where they can walk us though some of the procedures. We obviously want to go about this in the safest way possible, ideally without a midair.

It's been an idea that we have been floating around with each other. Obviously there is much more to it than we thought. Thanks again for all of the help/reason. These forums (more importantly users) have been a real help to us both.
 
Last edited:
Well if you've just gotten your PPL and don't have any experience in formation flying, it's going to be pretty ugly at first. Everyone looks at formation flying from the ground and thinks it can't be that hard. Trying to do formation flying correctly is like trying to learn the flare for landing. It won't take quite as long but at some point you get the feel for it and it just clicks. I've trained pilots on formation flying in helos and it always takes them 2-3 flight before I would sign them off. Generally they're afraid to get to close and we end up moving fore and aft like a slinky.

I would seriously recommend attending some sort of formal training program before attempting it. It'll be much more enjoyable that way. There is a discipline involved that requires a detailed brief that entails duties, contingencies, commo procedures, formation type, etc, etc.

EDIT: what 35 AOA said above
 
Last edited:
Depends on your level of skill and common sense.

Nothing wrong with doing this in a 172.


Are you going to ground fly the thing first? Whos lead, what to do if, etc. etc.


HOWEVER since you bothered to post this question, I would believe you are lacking in one of the two aforementioned departments, perhaps going up with someone who has successfully done formation might be in order.

There has been enough bad publicity for GA recently, any more and the knuckle dragging masses might scare the FAA into making more asinine regs.

We really dont need the publicity of two 172s lawn darting.
 
Last edited:
benb172 said:
It's been an idea that we have been floating around with each other. Obviously there is much more to it than we thought. Thanks again for all of the help/reason. These forums (more importantly users) have been a real help to us both.
Click to expand...

You are wise beyond your years to have asked for this advice and then actually taken the advice without protest. Don't give up on the idea, just go out an get some more experience flying and then get some additional training, specifically on formation flying.

I am not to the point of doing this yet, and have only flown formation as a passenger, but I can tell you it is a lot of fun.
 
With training (where you'll also learn how to do a proper Briefing before ever getting near the airplanes, amongst other things): Safe enough.

Without training: Today is a good day to die.

I'm not kidding. It is not as easy as it looks.

You'll be surprised at your first turn as #2 just how much you'll have to be constantly doing to hold position.

As lead, you MUST be 100% responsible for the safety of your wingmen. They are staring at your strut and busy as hell. Especially when they're new to it.

Examples:

Turning into the new guy when he's badly sucked and just firewalled his throttle to get unsucked is not nice if done rapidly, since you just shortened the distance to you considerably. But is nice if you're gentle and trying to help him close a large gap. IF you know he's expecting it.

You can't just fly up front fat dumb and happy and not think about what the other aircraft have to do to stay with you. Judicious small smooth adjustments to throttle can help your wingmen too but new folks would probably prefer you just fly a nice consistent speed and altitude so they can figure out how the hell to stay in one place in reference to you.

You get to know what your group will do over time.

Radio procedures are different at first also. Lead talks. Everybody else acknowledges quickly. Then shut up. :)

Grab some folks who know how to do it right and give it a shot. It's fun as hell and if I had the opportunity, I'd do more of it with people I trusted. It's also a lot of work at first. Most training will start loose and then tighten it up as skill levels are exposed and honed. I don't have nearly enough time doing it to be commenting, or competent.

I could muddle my way through being a safe #2 starting loose and closing it up a bit. That's about as comfortable as I'd go without a few hours with a good (or at least briefed and predictable) lead. A new lead? Forgettaboutit. I'll stay loose. Dork-boy over there might decide he wants to bank hard into me without warning. "Targets merging" is a non-fun way to end a fun flight.

It'll make your appreciation go WAY up for the airshow teams too. They bust their butts to make it look easy and good in all sorts of conditions while lead is maintaining safety from the centerline and making all the magic happen at show center and staying in the box. Much more impressive once you've had a little taste of it.
 
I've ridden along on them before, and it is not easy by any means. And I was just sitting there watching someone who flies formation regularly, and has done so for years. You are constantly on the throttle and maneuvering to keep with the lead. As others have said go on a flight and get some training before trying it between two new private pilots. Personally I would not try more than a loose two ship in a 172. I would be afraid of one aircraft getting higher than the other and losing sight of each other, but that's just me.
 
In a lot of ways formation flying in a C172 is harder than flying formation in a T-38. A T-38 has a bubble canopy, powerful flight controls, and lots of reserve power. The sight lines (for example "line up your wingtip on the star for route formation") are all tested and documented. T-38 pilots learn a bunch of different formations and have carefully briefed what each pilot will do if anything unexpected happens.

A C-172 has fairly unresponsive flight controls, very little reserve power, and terrible visibility. And there are no documented sight lines. New private pilots have no idea what goes into a formation briefing.

Please, if you are interested in formation flying you and your wingman need to seek out a CFI qualified to teach formation flying.

Formation flying isn't that hard, anyone can do it, and it's fun. But it's really easy to kill yourself, your wingman, and people on the ground if you make a rookie mistake!
 
A couple of hundred yards in trail would not be much of an issue. The real issue is the aerodynamic forces that happen when two planes converge. There was a mid air of two jump planes just last week. Experienced pilots who screwed up and nearly killed 11 people. Don't be a statistic.
Another way to do it would be to grab a couple of experienced (in formation flying) to ride along. Let them guide you in formation, assist when needed.
 
Stevel said:
You are wise beyond your years to have asked for this advice and then actually taken the advice without protest. Don't give up on the idea, just go out an get some more experience flying and then get some additional training, specifically on formation flying.

I am not to the point of doing this yet, and have only flown formation as a passenger, but I can tell you it is a lot of fun.
Click to expand...

No doubt. +1. You have the right attitude OP, just get a little instructional time with some folks who know what they are doing and I'm sure you will be on your way.

@ JimNTexas, you'd know better than me, as I have never flown form in a civilian aircraft (and not counting a couple three hours in the T-34C, almost entirely in high perf jets).....but I would bet you are spot on with this assessment.

As a note of caution, and along the lines of other sentiments like "experienced guys goon it away too"......I probably came closer to dying in a midair than I ever have before just yesterday. Had a wingman break into me without saying anything while I was looking out the other side trying to pick up tallies of the bad guys merging with us......looked back within a second or two and had a face full of his jet in my windscreen maybe 100 ft away and closing. Between the two of us, there are probably 3000 hrs of experience in fighters. Yet we almost died. Different scenario than you are likely to run into, but I've also seen plenty of administrative join ups get hairy enough to have caused an accident as well. Just some real world food for thought, though I think the point has been made, so I'm truly not trying to beat a dead horse.
 
Last edited:
benb172 said:
I completely agree. With limited/no experience this is a very hard task. I will keep all of your requirements all in mind. Maybe the safest option is doing a couple extra lessons with our instructors where they can walk us though some of the procedures. We obviously want to go about this in the safest way possible, ideally without a midair.

It's been an idea that we have been floating around with each other. Obviously there is much more to it than we thought. Thanks again for all of the help/reason. These forums (more importantly users) have been a real help to us both.
Click to expand...

Before asking those instructors, find out what their experience with formation flying is. I knew a few instructors that sometimes teach formation flying and based on how I see them fly have no idea what their doing.

Most aerobatic schools will have good qualified instructors in formation flying. Some even have specific courses dedicated to it. Recommend to look at those. Do note that those schools will be more expensive (there is a reason for it).
 
benb172 said:
I completely agree. With limited/no experience this is a very hard task. I will keep all of your requirements all in mind. Maybe the safest option is doing a couple extra lessons with our instructors where they can walk us though some of the procedures. We obviously want to go about this in the safest way possible, ideally without a midair.

It's been an idea that we have been floating around with each other. Obviously there is much more to it than we thought. Thanks again for all of the help/reason. These forums (more importantly users) have been a real help to us both.
Click to expand...

It's most likely that your instructors don't know the first thing about formation flight. There are instructors and organizations that specialize in it. Start here:
http://www.flyfast.org/
 
Formation flying is a very specific skill set that requires dedicated training and a focused mindset - FLYFAST, Red Star Pilot's Association are two excellent options for training.

Attempting formation flying without appropriate instruction WILL result in bad things. Two objects, each with 6 degrees of freedom, in close proximity, in an unstable liquid, is a far more complex interaction than most realize.

As a freshly minted PP I would recommend against being closer than 1/4 mile to another plane without both pilots being FAST qualified, and that means one should be Lead qualified and the other Wing qualified.

You just cannot imagine how quickly unintended closure rates can turn into bent metal or worse.

'Gimp
 
Hang around the airport and make friends with some ex fighter drivers, formation flying, low passes, and overhead breaks will follow. ;)
 
Henning said:
It's most likely that your instructors don't know the first thing about formation flight. There are instructors and organizations that specialize in it. Start here:
http://www.flyfast.org/
Click to expand...

Will do. I know that when they shuttle the planes up from TF Green they do fly in a loose formation, which is exactly what I am looking for, not an up-close and tight one. 1/4 mile seems right.
 
benb172 said:
Will do. I know that when they shuttle the planes up from TF Green they do fly in a loose formation, which is exactly what I am looking for, not an up-close and tight one. 1/4 mile seems right.
Click to expand...

1/4 mile isn't particularly good either and adds some hazards that don't exist tight in like losing sight of the other guy in hazy viz or bad lighting. There's a lot involved, and mid airs typically don't have positive outcomes.

Flying in the wing position of formation takes the fun out of flying for me because you are constantly watching lead which eliminates your ability to look around and enjoy the view. Once you guys have your licenses, just fly together in the same plane, more fun that way and it gives you a two pilot cockpit which is safer than single when things go downhill.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
1/4 mile isn't particularly good either and adds some hazards that don't exist tight in like losing sight of the other guy in hazy viz or bad lighting. There's a lot involved, and mid airs typically don't have positive outcomes.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I actually do better closer but it is a balancing act between being far enough apart to have time to react and close enough to know EXACTLY what your lead is doing.

It is a hell of a lot of fun though and I highly recommend doing it, with training and proper preparation.
 
denverpilot said:
Glad you're still here with us to tell the tale.
Click to expand...

Thanks, me too :) It was more of one of those things that just happened too quickly to cause fear......just unloaded and got clear of him, and then we continued. Then on the way back home to the field, it hit me....."man that was pretty close"
 
JimNtexas said:
The sight lines (for example "line up your wingtip on the star for route formation") are all tested and documented.
Click to expand...

FWIW on a 172 lining up the lead planes main gear and nose strut positions you well for an echelon formation. These are things you need to find out BEFORE launching. It seems silly but go sit out on the ramp with your lead where you want to be, learn it. Then move around a little and see how the picture changes
 
Last edited:
So, who taught the first two guys that ever flew formation how to fly formation? ;)
 
EdFred said:
So, who taught the first two guys that ever flew formation how to fly formation? ;)
Click to expand...

That's not the primary question though, the primary question is "Did they survive?" The next question is, "How many people died in the process of writing the training and operating rules for formation flight?" The primary advantage humans have over other animals is to be able to learn from other's mistakes through communicative language rather than direct observation or our own mistakes.
 
EdFred said:
So, who taught the first two guys that ever flew formation how to fly formation? ;)
Click to expand...

Probably the Grim Reaper, but we have more options and better instructors available to us now.:yes:
 
35 AoA said:
No doubt. +1. You have the right attitude OP, just get a little instructional time with some folks who know what they are doing and I'm sure you will be on your way.

@ JimNTexas, you'd know better than me, as I have never flown form in a civilian aircraft (and not counting a couple three hours in the T-34C, almost entirely in high perf jets).....but I would bet you are spot on with this assessment.

As a note of caution, and along the lines of other sentiments like "experienced guys goon it away too"......I probably came closer to dying in a midair than I ever have before just yesterday. Had a wingman break into me without saying anything while I was looking out the other side trying to pick up tallies of the bad guys merging with us......looked back within a second or two and had a face full of his jet in my windscreen maybe 100 ft away and closing. Between the two of us, there are probably 3000 hrs of experience in fighters. Yet we almost died. Different scenario than you are likely to run into, but I've also seen plenty of administrative join ups get hairy enough to have caused an accident as well. Just some real world food for thought, though I think the point has been made, so I'm truly not trying to beat a dead horse.
Click to expand...


My roommate in Iraq almost had a similar midair flying 60s. He was combat cruise abeam (probably too tight) when lead made an unannounced break into him. Since they were around 50 ft there wasn't much room to maneuver and he almost hit the desert floor trying to avoid him.

In almost 3,700 hrs in the Hawk the closest I came to dying wasn't war, it was almost hitting other aircraft during training. Even with all the briefing we do there's always a breakdown in communications or understanding that results in close calls.

In a nut shell, formation flying is simply not something to take lightly.
 
About a year and a half ago I was lucky enough to be afforded the opportunity to learn about formation flying and actually do it as a fairly new PP at ~100 hours total flight time. The pilot we learned from did formation flying for over 25 years in air shows and offered this as an opportunity to a group of 6 or so of us.

The first step in our journey was about 6 hours of ground learning about the basics, terminology, and most importantly the SOP for our formation group. We took things very seriously and only if we showed we were ready from a knowledge standpoint were we allowed to actually take part in a flight.

When we did the actual flights we flew 172's as a flight of 2. The instructor pilot that did the course for it would fly with the wing aircraft and the lead aircraft also had an instructor. We did at least a few flights as wing and lead, all in tactical formation and no closer than ~300 feet from each other. All flights were accompanied by pre and post flight briefings. We practiced form up procedures, lost sight procedures, and turns.

I wouldn't trade this experience for anything; it was very fun and I believe made us all better pilots. Those of us doing it had different levels of flying experience, a few of us pretty new, but we also had a couple of ATPs in the group with several thousand hours. There was generally very little difference between us when it came to formation skills, especially flying wing. Flying lead was really the easier position except for the radio calls, the key was to provide leadership and a consistent platform for wing.

Formation is something to be taken very seriously and you need training from someone who knows what they were doing, no matter your level of experience with "normal flying". If you ever have the chance to get the training though it is totally worth it.
 
frfly172 said:
Formation flying would be a bad idea until you get some basic instruction in formation flying. I would want to have some more experience before trying it.
Click to expand...
Absolutely correct, says this FFI-certified Flight Lead. For anyone contemplating formation flying without formation training, I strongly urge you to read how fast it can all go bad as well as good advice in the following articles:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/1996/near_miss9611.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184315-1.html
http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=571
http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=6170
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2001/prof0101.html
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2002/fast0201.html
http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2001/sp0107.html

That said, I've been doing formation flying in light planes for many years, and both I and the pilots with whom I do it have found it both challenging and rewarding. If you're interested in learning this skill, there are several sources for the training through either FAST (for warbirds) or FFI (for other light planes). Most training is conducted through type clubs, since dissimilar formation is an advanced art. You can reach FFI at:

Stu McCurdy
Formation Flying, Inc.
3509 Gattis School Road
Round Rock, Texas 78664
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
My roommate in Iraq almost had a similar midair flying 60s. He was combat cruise abeam (probably too tight) when lead made an unannounced break into him. Since they were around 50 ft there wasn't much room to maneuver and he almost hit the desert floor trying to avoid him.

In almost 3,700 hrs in the Hawk the closest I came to dying wasn't war, it was almost hitting other aircraft during training. Even with all the briefing we do there's always a breakdown in communications or understanding that results in close calls.

In a nut shell, formation flying is simply not something to take lightly.
Click to expand...

Absolutely and completely agree. For a few reasons, what we were doing the other day was a little non-standard, and such is where the swiss cheese begins to line up. That, and most importantly, the times when we think we have it licked and make some overly aggressive join or something after the knock it off. I've seen that become really scary as well, as I'm sure you have
 
35 AoA said:
For a few reasons, what we were doing the other day was a little non-standard, and such is where the swiss cheese begins to line up.
Click to expand...
And how. After years of practice with a 23-page standards manual, my Grumman pals and I can brief a "standard" formation practice flight in only a few minutes, but when we want to do something different, a 40-minute flight can take an hour to brief.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top