ForeFlight - Missing Departures

[Bman.]

I was discussing a departure with another pilot and was asking him why he didn't put the departure in his iPAD along with the panel GPS. He noted that there wasn't an easy way to input the transition... but of course there is. You just spell out the transition in the route and it's there.

So I started digging around on the departure procedures and see that the one procedure he was given isn't listed in the "procedures" tab of the planning page.

KMEM - ELVIS3 departure. It has ton of other departures but no ELVIS3. I am not instrument (about to start training) but what is the reason the departure isn't listed as an option? Is this a ForeFlight thing, chart thing from the FAA?

Thanks for the help-
Benjamin

 

[wilkersk]

It comes up right away on my Foreflight iPhone app. Its just a graphical description though. Not a programmable route you can call up.

 

[Bman.]

The waypoint is found if I type in one of the transition points. All the other departures are shown (at least as indicated on SkyVector) ... Just not Elvis3. I think it's because it's not a RNAV departure. All the rest are.



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[midlifeflyer]

It's not that it's not RNAV, but close. It's not any form of routing, whether GPS or VOR.

The ELVIS THREE is a pure vector departure. An initial heading and then radar vectors to a transition. Maybe an instruction for lost comm situations. There are plenty of them in all parts of the country, typically in busier areas with a bunch of airports. I've been assigned and flown the DENVER and LAUDERDALE departures which are similar.

The charts are in Foreflight but they are not in the "route selector" for a few reasons, the simplest being, there's no defined "route" to "select". Also, the last time I checked, you couldn't even file it if you wanted to using an online system (including the old DUATS) for exactly the same reason.

 

[Bman.]

I see - that's pretty much what I thought. I thought it strange that they actually had transition points though. So in the case of my colleague, they game him the ELVIS3 departure and he scrambled to get it loaded up on the GPS, only to be vectored (as you note).

So why have waypoints out in the middle of nowhere if they are going to vector you? Just something to tie your GPS to?


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[MAKG1]

It's not that it's not RNAV, but close. It's not any form of routing, whether GPS or VOR.

The ELVIS THREE is a pure vector departure. An initial heading and then radar vectors to a transition. Maybe an instruction for lost comm situations. There are plenty of them in all parts of the country, typically in busier areas with a bunch of airports. I've been assigned and flown the DENVER and LAUDERDALE departures which are similar.

The charts are in Foreflight but they are not in the "route selector" for a few reasons, the simplest being, there's no defined "route" to "select". Also, the last time I checked, you couldn't even file it if you wanted to using an online system (including the old DUATS) for exactly the same reason.

While it's true there isn't a route you'll fly, there should always be a lost comms route. This is appropriate to put in your GPS while being vectored.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I see - that's pretty much what I thought. I though it strange that they actually had transition points though. So in the case of my colleague, they game him the ELVIS3 departure and he scrambled to get it loaded up on the GPS, only to be vectored (as you note).

So why have waypoints out in the middle of nowhere if they are going to vector you? Just something to tie your GPS to?

Remember what a SID and a STAR are. They are just a shorthand for commonly issued clearances so ATC doesn't have to say them in full again and again and again and again. Plus, they often have fixes that don;t appear on an enroute chart and pilot gets to have most of the clearance already written. Vector SIDs seem relatively simple but even they can be confused. Notice the sheer number of transitions in this procedure, none of which are on the en route chart. Imagine the questions about where NTREE or EFOUR or STWOO or WONEE are or even how to spell them if even a simple clearance like

"Cleared to the Dyersburg Regional Airport, ELVIS THREE departure. NORTH FOUR transition, then as filed. Squawk ####"​

had to be read out as

"Cleared to the Dyersburg Regional Airport. After departure turn left heading 140. Expect radar vectors to intercept the MEM 030 degree radial NORTH FOUR. Upon reaching NORTH FOUR expect radar vectors to join filed route, then as filed, then as filed. Climb and maintain 3,000 expect [#,000] 10 minutes after departure. Departure frequency 124.15. Squawk [####]."​

 

[midlifeflyer]

While it's true there isn't a route you'll fly, there should always be a lost comms route. This is appropriate to put in your GPS while being vectored.

Yep, it would be appropriate but I personally wouldn't. Couple of reasons. One is that lost comm instructions also exist with routed SIDs and I wouldn't replace a route with the lost comm fix in the unlikely event of lost comm. So why do it for this one? And to put it at the end, I'd rather put my departure alternate there.

The other is that it might be the absolute worst place to go. As an example, If I were departing KAPA in Colorado southbound on the DENVER EIGHT SID I can't imagine why I would want to turn northbound and fly NORDO toward the middle of Class B primary, crossing the approach/departure corridors serving 4 of the Class B primary's runways.

Edit:
BTW, there isn't always a lost comm route anyway.

 

[luvflyin]

That's the first time I've seen where they give the pronunciations of the fixes. Has anyone seen others?

 

[flyingron]

"Cleared to the Dyersburg Regional Airport, ELVIS THREE departure. NORTH FOUR transition, then as filed. Squawk ####"
​

They technically don't even need the "then as filed."

It always bothered me when IAD used to give me:

Cleared to Dare via the Capital Eight Departure Haney the as filed, maintain 3000 expect 6000 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 126.1 Squawk 1234.

What's the point of giving the Capital Eight SID if you're just going to repeat everything in it.
Cleared to Dare via Capital Eight Haney Squawk 1234
would have sufficed..​

 

[luvflyin]

They technically don't even need the "then as filed."

It always bothered me when IAD used to give me:

Cleared to Dare via the Capital Eight Departure Haney the as filed, maintain 3000 expect 6000 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 126.1 Squawk 1234.

What's the point of giving the Capital Eight SID if you're just going to repeat everything in it.
Cleared to Dare via Capital Eight Haney Squawk 1234
would have sufficed..​

Yeah. All that effort into building and publishing a SID to reduce verbiage, and then it don't get reduced. Not including "then as filed" would be a reach though. Route of flight is a required element in a clearance and the "Expect radar vectors to filed/assigned route....", I don't really think would cut it as a substitute for that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah. All that effort into building and publishing a SID to reduce verbiage, and then it don't get reduced. Not including "then as filed" would be a reach though. Route of flight is a required element in a clearance and the "Expect radar vectors to filed/assigned route....", I don't really think would cut it as a substitute for that.

I agree with you "then as filed," if applicable, is still needed to complete most clearances. SIDs usually end before the route does. In my example above, I am assuming there is something happening after reaching NORTH FOUR to get to the destination airport, whether Direct, airways, radar vectors, the balance of the route as filed, or something else.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's the first time I've seen where they give the pronunciations of the fixes. Has anyone seen others?

I suspect there are some. These are pretty special. Lots of them with cardinal direction and a number. Most waypoints are simply pronounced as written so we'd get a lot of "entry" for NTREE instead of "north three."