Foreflight Basic vs. Pro

[Bonchie]

I realize the differences are listed on the website. What I need is for guys like you with knowledge to tell a new IFR student what he actually needs.

Does the basic edition cover everything a GA IFR pilot would need?

 

[Somedudeintn]

I realize the differences are listed on the website. What I need is for guys like you with knowledge to tell a new IFR student what he actually needs.

Does the basic edition cover everything a GA IFR pilot would need?

I'm another IFR student and I've got the basic version and it works fine. That being said after I pass my Checkride and start flying in actual I will probably get Pro for the added situational awareness with the position overlay on approaches. For now I'd rather gain the skill of being able to visualize where I am instead of just relying on FF.

 

[James331]

As a IFR STUDENT, you need to leave the iPad at home.

Once you get your ticket, the pro version is what I use, being able to use GPS on the plates is a great advantage, also the SV add on should be free, but is still worth the extra 25 bucks.

 

[Bonchie]

As a IFR STUDENT, you need to leave the iPad at home.

Once you get your ticket, the pro version is what I use, being able to use GPS on the plates is a great advantage, also the SV add on should be free, but is still worth the extra 25 bucks.

I don't want to juggle a dozen different pieces of paper in the cockpit that all will cost me more to buy then a years worth of FF and be out of date beforehand. I'm perfectly capable of simply not using features that would inhibit training.

It sounds like the basic version will have all the charts and information I need to get started. That answers the question.

 

[mjburian]

For me, the Pro upgrade was worth it just for georeferenced taxi diagrams at unfamiliar airports. Add that functionality to approach plates and it's a no brainer for me.

Since I had the Pro subscription before starting my IR training, I used it throughout. Funny how often the GPS "failed" in training (taking the plane off of the charts). But I was told to train how you plan to fly, so I'd say get the Pro now and *make sure* you know how to use it both with and without the plane on the charts. (The GPS will almost certainly "fail" on your checkride.)

 

[poadeleted20]

Does the basic edition cover everything a GA IFR pilot would need?

Everything you need? Yes. But based on watching a lot of IR students learn, you're still going to be glad you got the Pro version, both for the little blue plane on the approach and taxi charts, and the ability to makes notes on approach charts.

 

[poadeleted20]

As a IFR STUDENT, you need to leave the iPad at home.

Humbug. The iPad with Foreflight is a superb tool for weather, flight planning, and filing, as well as a great EFB in flight. Since you're going to be using one after you get your IR, you're best off using it for your IR training and testing. Sure, you need some sort of backup charts in flight, but there's absolutely nothing wrong (and a lot right) with using an iPad during IR training and testing if that's what you plan to use later.

 

[James331]

I don't want to juggle a dozen different pieces of paper in the cockpit that all will cost me more to buy then a years worth of FF and be out of date beforehand. I'm perfectly capable of simply not using features that would inhibit training.

It sounds like the basic version will have all the charts and information I need to get started. That answers the question.

Aaaand that's my point.

First it's two pieces of paper maybe three, if you have more then that out you need much better cockpit resource management.

Two, all the plates are FREE

Three, you need to learn to build a solid foundation, basic six pack, no moving map, enroute chart and a yoke clip with your plate.

Doesn't matter how you're going to be flying later, build a good foundation FIRST, adding moving maps and iPads and autopilots is easy.

I could take anyone who can fly a stripped down bare bones IFR plane with paper charts and plates and move them into a G1000 with a iPad in a flight or two.

The inverse doesn't quite work out as smoothly.

Same deal with learning to fly in a taildragger, my transition to a 172 took under .5 tach, try that the other way.

Learn the stripped down basics first, build a good foundation, go from there.

 

[James331]

. Funny how often the GPS "failed" in training (taking the plane off of the charts). But I was told to train how you plan to fly, so I'd say get the Pro now and *make sure* you know how to use it both with and without the plane on the charts. (The GPS will almost certainly "fail" on your checkride.)

What happens with the entire iPad fails? Hope you have your paper handy and know how to use it.

I know a few DPEs who would want to make damn sure you could handle yourself in IMC if your non TSOed consumer electronic device took a dump.

FYI, I fly IFR for a living and always have my iPad, I love the tech but until you earn your ticket you got to leave the toys at home IMO, and even after you got to be able to fly the paper and have it handy.

 

[John Collins]

I also would recommend the Pro version. It provides the ability to obtain your expected clearance before you talk to clearance delivery. The plates on maps provides you with a clear understanding of how a particular approach ties in with the victor airway system.

 

[Bonchie]

Aaaand that's my point.

First it's two pieces of paper maybe three, if you have more then that out you need much better cockpit resource management.

Two, all the plates are FREE

Three, you need to learn to build a solid foundation, basic six pack, no moving map, enroute chart and a yoke clip with your plate.

Doesn't matter how you're going to be flying later, build a good foundation FIRST, adding moving maps and iPads and autopilots is easy.

I could take anyone who can fly a stripped down bare bones IFR plane with paper charts and plates and move them into a G1000 with a iPad in a flight or two.

The inverse doesn't quite work out as smoothly.

Same deal with learning to fly in a taildragger, my transition to a 172 took under .5 tach, try that the other way.

Learn the stripped down basics first, build a good foundation, go from there.

No offense, but I'll let my instructor dictate that. I asked a question about FF's features, not for training advice.

 

[Bonchie]

FYI, I fly IFR for a living and always have my iPad, I love the tech but until you earn your ticket you got to leave the toys at home IMO, and even after you got to be able to fly the paper and have it handy.

I never said I wanted to use all the GPS features, etc initially. I was pretty clear in my second post to you about that.

My main question had to do with whether all needed charts exist in the basic version. The same charts that are on paper, used the same way as if they were on paper. There's no logical difference between reading a chart on an Ipad or having it in your hand. Don't worry, I'll be thoroughly trained how to do things as manually as possible.

 

[mjburian]

What happens with the entire iPad fails?

I'll give you the same answer I gave my DPE for the IR checkride:

"I'll use my phone, since it *also* has a copy of Foreflight kept up-to-date on it."

And if that fails, I'll use the 496 in the plane. And if that fails, I'll use any resources I have available to me. Eventually, I suppose we could imagine enough failures where all I have left is the Cat and Duck. If those fail, I guess it's just my time...

 

[mjburian]

I never said I wanted to use all the GPS features, etc initially. I was pretty clear in my second post to you about that.



My main question had to do with whether all needed charts exist in the basic version. The same charts that are on paper, used the same way as if they were on paper. There's no logical difference between reading a chart on an Ipad or having it in your hand. Don't worry, I'll be thoroughly trained how to do things as manually as possible.

The Basic version has everything you need. I'd argue that the Pro version is worth the upgrade cost, though, and you can simulate Basic functionality (ie, no georeferenced taxi diagrams and plates) by turning on airplane mode on the iPad... but still have the ability to use those things when you want them (even if just for VFR flights).

 

[midlifeflyer]

As a IFR STUDENT, you need to leave the iPad at home.

Yeah, and leave those silly charts at home too. A real IFR pilot should be able to use Elray's notebook and be just fine!

To answer the OP, although there are others, the primary advantage of the Pro version for IFR flight is the geo-referenced approach charts.

But for instrument student navigation training at least in the early stages, you are going to want to develop the knowledge and skills to be situationally-aware without the ability to see your position on tablet EFB - to learn to use the aircraft's instruments and navigational aids.

I would expect that to entail a few flight lessons relying on navaids other than panel GPS and to "own ship" off on your EFB.

As you get closer to the checkride, I would expect your EFB feature exposure to increase, while still maintaining proficiency without it.

For real-world IFR use, the Pro is worth the price differential to me. Having it all at this stage and being prepared to turn some things off for the goal of learning or waiting until later to add Pro is a personal decision.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I never said I wanted to use all the GPS features, etc initially. I was pretty clear in my second post to you about that.

My main question had to do with whether all needed charts exist in the basic version. The same charts that are on paper, used the same way as if they were on paper. There's no logical difference between reading a chart on an Ipad or having it in your hand. Don't worry, I'll be thoroughly trained how to do things as manually as possible.

Yes, all the charts you will need are in the basic version.

 

[poadeleted20]

I know a few DPEs who would want to make damn sure you could handle yourself in IMC if your non TSOed consumer electronic device took a dump.

If you show up planning to use an EFB, all DPE's are supposed to cover your backup plan for EFB failure as part of the ground portion of an IR practical test, but they are not supposed to take away your iPad in flight -- nothing in the PTS requires a test in flight of your EFB failure plan. Of course, if the battery runs out, or it overheats, that's not the DPE's doing, so you'd better be prepared for that, but if you then pull out an iPhone or second iPad with ForeFlight on it as your backup, the DPE is not supposed to take that away, too.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'll give you the same answer I gave my DPE for the IR checkride:

"I'll use my phone, since it *also* has a copy of Foreflight kept up-to-date on it."

AFS-800 says that's an acceptable answer -- as long as your phone is charged. :wink2:

 

[mjburian]

If you show up planning to use an EFB, all DPE's are supposed to cover your backup plan for EFB failure as part of the ground portion of an IR practical test, but they are not supposed to take away your iPad in flight -- nothing in the PTS requires a test in flight of your EFB failure plan. Of course, if the battery runs out, or it overheats, that's not the DPE's doing, so you'd better be prepared for that, but if you then pull out an iPhone or second iPad with ForeFlight on it as your backup, the DPE is not supposed to take that away, too.

My DPE failed the moving map for my last approach. Seemed fair to me and I'd practiced that way enough that it wasn't an issue... but definitely something I'd want to be prepared for before an IR checkride (even if it's not required for them to do).

 

[mjburian]

AFS-800 says that's an acceptable answer -- as long as your phone is charged. :wink2:

Yep. Always charged and I carry a 12/24V power adapter with two USB ports and two charging cables (for the iPad and iPhone). The 496 is charged on ship's power as well, so I'd have to unplug that (and let it run on it's own battery) to charge the other devices. I'm not saying it's impossible, but a *lot* of things would have to go wrong before I'd be without at least one powered device with charts. And in that case, the club always keeps a current VFR chart in the plane.

 

[murphey]

Yeah, and leave those silly charts at home too. A real IFR pilot should be able to use Elray's notebook and be just fine!
.

(*chortle*)

By the way, one of the notebooks is still on display in the main entrance, along with other artifacts of his (and no, I'm not talking about DIA)

 

[poadeleted20]

My DPE failed the moving map for my last approach. Seemed fair to me and I'd practiced that way enough that it wasn't an issue... but definitely something I'd want to be prepared for before an IR checkride (even if it's not required for them to do).

Loss of the satellite signal is a reasonable test on the IR practical test, and it should include simulation of loss of GPS on all units aboard, i.e., your GNS430 essentially becomes a KX-155 as well as losing the little blue airplane on your iPad. And if you train with me, you'll definitely be prepared for it -- I do plain VOR approaches with no use of GPS data before we start doing approaches with the GPS usable.

 

[James331]

Yeah, and leave those silly charts at home too. A real IFR pilot should be able to use Elray's notebook and be just fine!

To answer the OP, although there are others, the primary advantage of the Pro version for IFR flight is the geo-referenced approach charts.

But for instrument student navigation training at least in the early stages, you are going to want to develop the knowledge and skills to be situationally-aware without the ability to see your position on tablet EFB - to learn to use the aircraft's instruments and navigational aids.

I would expect that to entail a few flight lessons relying on navaids other than panel GPS and to "own ship" off on your EFB.

As you get closer to the checkride, I would expect your EFB feature exposure to increase, while still maintaining proficiency without it.

For real-world IFR use, the Pro is worth the price differential to me. Having it all at this stage and being prepared to turn some things off for the goal of learning or waiting until later to add Pro is a personal decision.

Not sure about a real pilot, but a competent one should know where they are without moving maps, is it really asking that much to not need to be grabbing for GPS all the time, radial and DME should give you dead nuts position, just as triangulating, it's good I'm not a DPE, if I failed your ipad and you grabbed another one, or said with a quivering lip "buuuut I have a charger" or "buuuut I have another ipad" it wouldn't be a fun ride from there on out.

FYI there are such things as GPS outages


Just grab the damn MAP or plate and aviate navigate and communicate, it should take less time than making up excuses on why your iWhatever isn't going to fail, and it should be something you do without being forced to.

 

[James331]

Loss of the satellite signal is a reasonable test on the IR practical test, and it should include simulation of loss of GPS on all units aboard, i.e., your GNS430 essentially becomes a KX-155 as well as losing the little blue airplane on your iPad. And if you train with me, you'll definitely be prepared for it -- I do plain VOR approaches with no use of GPS data before we start doing approaches with the GPS usable.

And to think some folks go their IFR without a single GPS aboard

 

[poadeleted20]

Not sure about a real pilot, but a competent one should know where they are without moving maps, is it really asking that much to not need to be grabbing for GPS all the time, radial and DME should give you dead nuts position, just as triangulating, it's good I'm not a DPE, if I failed your ipad and you grabbed another one, or said with a quivering lip "buuuut I have a charger" or "buuuut I have another ipad" it wouldn't be a fun ride from there on out.

You wouldn't be a DPE very long if you did that, since taking away one EFB after another is contrary to AFS-800 guidance to DPE's.

FYI there are such things as GPS outages

Agreed, but that doesn't cause one's iPad to become unusable as an EFB.

Just grab the damn MAP or plate and aviate navigate and communicate, it should take less time than making up excuses on why your iWhatever isn't going to fail, and it should be something you do without being forced to.

So when you're giving IR training in a G1000, do you cover up everything except the radio controls and the HSI until they pass the practical test? I'm all for making the IR trainee learn how to work with nothing but raw VOR data for navigation/positioning information as well as using the full system, and to show they can use their backup flight data source, but I'm dead set opposed to forcing them to train only in a way which is contrary to what they'll be doing the day after the pass the IR practical test.

 

[James331]

You wouldn't be a DPE very long if you did that, since taking away one EFB after another is contrary to AFS-800 guidance to DPE's.
Agreed, but that doesn't cause one's iPad to become unusable as an EFB.

So when you're giving IR training in a G1000, do you cover up everything except the radio controls and the HSI until they pass the practical test? I'm all for making the IR trainee learn how to work with nothing but raw VOR data for navigation/positioning information as well as using the full system, and to show they can use their backup flight data source, but I'm dead set opposed to forcing them to train only in a way which is contrary to what they'll be doing the day after the pass the IR practical test.

Thus why I am not a DPE, well that and my current job has me flying
less than 300hrs a year right now, gotta fix that :wink2:

As for giving initial IFR training in a G1000, easy, you don't need to have the moving maps up on the screens, simply change the right side one or hit the red button and take the little moving map out.

When I instructed in G1000s, I would have the student do EVERYTHING without the maps up, of course they knew how to turn them back on, and frankly a spider monkey can navigate with moving maps, but for all their training they were off.

Do you let your kid use a calculator when he is learning basic math? Do his teachers let him use it in his test on addition, subtraction, division and multiplication? Realistically later on in life he'll probably be able to go through life always having a calculator on his phone, which lives on his hip, still you are going to want to teach the young one how to cope without it.

 

[mjburian]

Not sure about a real pilot, but a competent one should know where they are without moving maps, is it really asking that much to not need to be grabbing for GPS all the time, radial and DME should give you dead nuts position, just as triangulating, it's good I'm not a DPE, if I failed your ipad and you grabbed another one, or said with a quivering lip "buuuut I have a charger" or "buuuut I have another ipad" it wouldn't be a fun ride from there on out.



FYI there are such things as GPS outages





Just grab the damn MAP or plate and aviate navigate and communicate, it should take less time than making up excuses on why your iWhatever isn't going to fail, and it should be something you do without being forced to.

First of all, how did you know my lip was quivering?! That's uncanny!

Secondly, what are you going to do when your charts fly out an open window?

 

[Banjo33]

Do you let your kid use a calculator when he is learning basic math? Do his teachers let him use it in his test on addition, subtraction, division and multiplication? Realistically later on in life he'll probably be able to go through life always having a calculator on his phone, which lives on his hip, still you are going to want to teach the young one how to cope without it.

I'm in agreement that I'd prefer my students to use a paper chart (I think it eliminates distraction early in their training when they need maximum brain power to maintain positional awareness), but I wouldn't force the issue with them.

However, I had to pull this quote from your text because I found your reference to having their phone on their hip hilarious!

 

[JOhnH]

I try to visit as many new airports as possible. The geo-referenced taxi diagrams are well worth the price of the pro-version to me.

 

[AustinPilot]

Not sure about a real pilot, but a competent one should know where they are without moving maps, is it really asking that much to not need to be grabbing for GPS all the time, radial and DME should give you dead nuts position, just as triangulating, it's good I'm not a DPE, if I failed your ipad and you grabbed another one, or said with a quivering lip "buuuut I have a charger" or "buuuut I have another ipad" it wouldn't be a fun ride from there on out.

FYI there are such things as GPS outages


Just grab the damn MAP or plate and aviate navigate and communicate, it should take less time than making up excuses on why your iWhatever isn't going to fail, and it should be something you do without being forced to.

True but radio navaids are several times more likely to go out of service than GPS. They are such a hassle to maintain that the government is phasing them out. Some VORs go offline and just disappear forever. Many modern planes don't even have a DME.

I think the bottom line is to know how to use all tools available rather than avoiding the one that's are easiest and most reliable (i.e. GPS). Just because something is more complicated to use doesn't make it inherently superior.

Now, if someone flies a VOR approach by referencing GPS overlay then I agree 100% they have not been instructed correctly.

 

[rbridges]

Personally, I'd get pro. You're a ppl now, and the extra stuff is nice. I used my iPad exclusively during instrument training.

 

[murphey]

And to think some folks go their IFR without a single GPS aboard

Here's one right here.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not sure about a real pilot, but a competent one should know where they are without moving maps, is it really asking that much to not need to be grabbing for GPS all the time, radial and DME should give you dead nuts position, just as triangulating, it's good I'm not a DPE, if I failed your ipad and you grabbed another one, or said with a quivering lip "buuuut I have a charger" or "buuuut I have another ipad" it wouldn't be a fun ride from there on out.

FYI there are such things as GPS outages


Just grab the damn MAP or plate and aviate navigate and communicate, it should take less time than making up excuses on why your iWhatever isn't going to fail, and it should be something you do without being forced to.

And, if you read my whole post, you know I agree with you, with one exception. You seem to insist that the only MAP must be made of a specific material. If I'm correct in that reading, yep, good thing you are not a DPE. It's never a fun ride with DPEs who make up their own rules.

 

[midlifeflyer]

True but radio navaids are several times more likely to go out of service than GPS.

Shhh. Don't confuse a true believer with facts.

 

[Blueangel]

I agree that learning to use paper IFR charts with DME and VOR is good idea for initial instrument training and as backup in the cockpit in case of GPS or ipad failure. I carry paper charts as backup since I've had my Garmin GPS and ipad crash or fail a few times before in flight and I'm glad that I had the paper charts to back me up.

 

[jesse]

What happens with the entire iPad fails? Hope you have your paper handy and know how to use it.

I know a few DPEs who would want to make damn sure you could handle yourself in IMC if your non TSOed consumer electronic device took a dump.

FYI, I fly IFR for a living and always have my iPad, I love the tech but until you earn your ticket you got to leave the toys at home IMO, and even after you got to be able to fly the paper and have it handy.

Every instrument student I have sent to a checkride has passed, every one of those students went with an iPad running Foreflight, and some printed charts as backup. None of them had an issue if the DPE failed the iPad since they were trained to deal with such failures.

All of the DPEs I've encountered have no problems with it.

 

[MikeELP]

Thus why I am not a DPE.

That's OK, James.

Neither is Ron. :wink2:

 

[MikeELP]

None of them had an issue if the DPE failed the iPad since they were trained to deal with such failures.

But..but..but "Cap'n" Ron says the DPE can't do that!!!

You had better report that renegade DPE to the FSDO, AFS800, ABCDEFG, EIEIO and Agent 99 forthwith!!!

 

[MikeELP]

True but radio navaids are several times more likely to go out of service than GPS..

Try thinking that if you live out in this part of Texas.

 

[BGF_Yankee]

For what it's worth, my iPad overheated today on a 1 hour flight to the Atlanta area. Things DO happen, so you need to have a backup plan ready to go. Just by sheer chance did I also bring my girlfriend's iPad with me. It was a totally clear day, but still...these things can and will happen, usually at the most inopportune time!